Soldier protection (dev branch)

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah Froggy I think it is the mod. All 7.62's I have tested ingame against plate carriers take two shots to kill... which is still arguably not realistic, but it is "balanced" in a "gamey" sort of way. 

 

Haven't tested it, but really happy that the neck hitpoint was tweaked and pistols were made less effective vs armour. Thank you devs!

 

I still want to repeat that the 556 still performs too well vs armour IMO. Not only for realism, but for diversity in weapons. The way it consistently kills in three shots makes it boringly similar to the 6.5. And now the chest plate doesn't cover the whole torso. So making armour able to take 4+ 556's still won't prevent one shot kills. I think it would be beneficial to make 556 not as effective vs armour.

[mx maximus 0]

I've been testing how smallarms fire (in this case the NATO P07 9mm handgun) worked against unarmed soldiers wearing only fatigues, and noticed something strange:

• NATO recon fatigues: 1 shot
• NATO combat fatigues: 1 shot
• AAF combat fatigues: 1 shot
• CSAT recon fatigues: 2 shots
• CSAT fatigues: 6 shots

I don't know if this is intentional, but it certainly seemed strange. Can you confirm this, solzenicyn?

Got these results without mods.

 

Other than this, the system is a really good addition to the ArmA series! I love it! ;)

[2nd ranger 282]

CSAT uniforms are supposed to be made of some advanced material that has bullet-resistant properties, hence their lack of plate carriers. 6 shots seems a bit extreme though.

[chortles 263]

I've been testing how smallarms fire (in this case the NATO P07 9mm handgun) worked against unarmed soldiers wearing only fatigues, and noticed something strange:

• NATO recon fatigues: 1 shot
• NATO combat fatigues: 1 shot
• AAF combat fatigues: 1 shot
• CSAT recon fatigues: 2 shots
• CSAT fatigues: 6 shots

I don't know if this is intentional, but it certainly seemed strange. Can you confirm this, solzenicyn?

Got these results without mods.

I don't know if six shots to CSAT fatigues (non-REcon) is intentional but CSAT fatigues taking more shots than NATO/AAF is in line with this OPREP.

[mx maximus 0]

CSAT uniforms are supposed to be made of some advanced material that has bullet-resistant properties, hence their lack of plate carriers. 6 shots seems a bit extreme though.

 

 

I don't know if six shots to CSAT fatigues (non-REcon) is intentional but CSAT fatigues taking more shots than NATO/AAF is in line with this OPREP.

 

I see! Thanks for the info, guys! Much appreciated! ;)

Yeah, 6 shots seems extreme. I've been playing the scenario called Survivor by ffredyk [CZ] and the difference really surprised me.  :)

[froggyluv 2136]

 Oh darn I thought the weapons were all standardized as shown by the bar graphs on the lower right: Rate of Fire, Impact etc...next your gonna tell me this isn't Vanilla either?!

 

 Nice job Column on pushing for the Neck attention it was bothering me as well. Great direction they're going in but do hope the body armor is better lined up with RL statistics. For instance been reading that Level III armor is built to withstand 7.62 for I think up to 6 shots tho of course we are talking actual penetration as opposed to hit point amount in RL.

[Greenfist 1863]

I know this is very much WIP, but legs are like glass currently: A single 6.5mm round to the shin is almost always lethal, even at 500m distance.

Damage to legs is really low (~0.1) but the overall damage goes through the roof.

 

 

[twisted 128]

really happy to see soldier protection being fixed. Be worthwhile looking at what happens when the wounding occurs when a bullet does penetrate the protection. Right now we have rubberband men with rifles attached with yoyo strings. Bit disappointing with all this other great work going on.

 

Wounded animations need to take a whole new look and approach to what happens when a bullet hits, and base the reaction on the damage dealt. right now the system is letting down the game quite a bit, feels like a bandaid solution. Heck, even in the simplest case AI & players should rather take the fall when hit hard by a bullet and then pick themselves up (or even better stay prone for a while, take cover and fire back if they can). system specific wounding and resultant damage is needed as well. An arm wound should screw up accuracy and even your ability to carry a rifle, a leg wound should causes limping not slowing down and eventually even affect your ability to stand. and bleeding out should be a danger. .

[-Coulum- 35]

I know this is very much WIP, but legs are like glass currently: A single 6.5mm round to the shin is almost always lethal, even at 500m distance.

Damage to legs is really low (~0.1) but the overall damage goes through the roof.

 

I don't get that on my end. Usually takes three 6.5s to the leg. Sometimes two if you hit them at the right angle.

 

• Tweaked: Decreased total minimal hit threshold so that even pistol bullets are able to score some trivial total damage through vests

 Yesterday, before this tweak, I found that a carrier rig could take twelve shots from a 9mm. I was quite pleased as I think that is a more realistic direction. Pistols are fairly useless against plate armour, from what I understand.

Today, after this tweak we are back to the four shots to the carrier rig and the guy goes down. I really hope that "trivial damage" can be decreased. alot. I think the Carrier rig should be able to take 10+ from a pistol honestly.  

 

Also regarding the neck hitzone - I still think it should be extended even further down the body. The entire exposed patch between the neck and the vest, below the buckle, should be considered the neck hitpoint.

 

 

All three of these shots are to a pretty vulnerable area. "One shot kills". But they are counted as hits to the armoured chest plate. They shouldn't be. To fix this, the neck hitpoint should extend down more. Below you can see roughly: in red where the neck hitpoint exists, in the green where it should be extended to, and in the blue where it was extended to, but should probably be counted as the shoulder/arms instead - that area isn't vital like the neck.

 

 

AI & players should rather take the fall when hit hard by a bullet and then pick themselves up (or even better stay prone for a while, take cover and fire back if they can). system specific wounding and resultant damage is needed as well. An arm wound should screw up accuracy and even your ability to carry a rifle, a leg wound should causes limping not slowing down and eventually even affect your ability to stand. and bleeding out should be a danger. .

Yes I do agree. Especially on wounded capabilities. You should be able to take many hits to the extremities before death but you should be extremely disabled by them. More so than now. Similarly, shots to the pelvis and abdomen really shouldn't actually be one shot kills like they are now. Instead it should be multiple shots with extreme penalties. bleeding should be another possible "penalty" of nonlethal shots.

However currently I believe all of that is out of the dev's scope. Right now its best to focus on tweaking the mechanics we do have.

 

What are peoples thoughts on the performance of assault rifles vs the carrier rig plate?

[Greenfist 1863]

 

I don't get that on my end. Usually takes three 6.5s to the leg. Sometimes two if you hit them at the right angle.

 

I think you're testing this with VR characters, right? That's wrong kind of white meat I'm afraid.

You need to try it with the real thing: https://youtu.be/QmmUbbiR42k (video 0:34 | MXM | 100m | default CSAT rifleman)

[-Coulum- 35]

I think you're testing this with VR characters, right? That's wrong kind of white meat I'm afraid.

You need to try it with the real thing: https://youtu.be/QmmUbbiR42k (video 0:34 | MXM | 100m | default CSAT rifleman)

Well fuck. You're right. yeah the legs are rather fragile. most often one shot kill. doesn't seem right.

[mx maximus 0]

FYI: It seem the armor rating of the CSAT fatigues have been lowered. It takes two shots with the P07 pistol to kill a soldier wearing only that. Seems much more realistic! ;)

Cheers!  B)

[UkropyPrivyet 32]

After more testing, I believe I was mistaking top of the head "glancing" hits (not dealing full damage) with helmet protection. It does seem that the helmet does offer protection to the whole face still. It would be nice if the devs could comment on the changes made/planned

 

In the arsenal I was able come up with these number of "shost to kill" vs the carrier rig from within 10 metres

 

9mm (PO7) - 4

556 (Mk20) - 3

6.5 (MX) - 3

7.62 (Mk14) - 2

 

I also noticed that all of these weapons are instant kills against unarmoured torsos. It seems that the 9mm and 556 especially, are much more effective nowadays. 

 

Personally I strongly dislike this new level of lethality. A 9mm should not be effective against high rated plate. To some degree, same for 556. The plate will certainly take more than 3 shots. Of course realistically the plate doesn't cover the whole torso. So I am hoping this damage buff is a short term fix, until the proper coverage of armour is represented. More severe hit penalties/reactions would also do well to balance out the protection armour grants. 

 

I know the devs said they were working on the issue. Any update/change in plans that you can throw at us?

 

@en3x

 

So how do your think all that info should translate in arma 3?

 

Yes, most plates these days will take around 4 or 5 shots of 5.56, but what you're failing to grasp is that the human body sure as hell won't. After a single shot most people will have a few cracked ribs and a massive goose egg where that round landed. After the second shot, you'll die of internal hemorrhaging if you don't get first aid quickly, you'll have completely fractured ribs, and you'll likely have trouble breathing. This is where you really stop being an effective soldier. After the third shot, you're either on your ass and out like a light or you're dead. Plates might stop bullets, but they don't stop you from being a fleshy sack of water that's read to burst at any moment.

 

If you want to tank four or five shots, then ArmA really isn't the game for you in the past and shouldn't be that game now nor in the future. There's a major problem with damage in the game and this might fix it quite a bit, but if you complain and they revert this it'll be right back to seeing everybody walk around with Navids, SPMGs, Zafirs, and Mk200s as SMGs and Cyrus rifles, MAR-10s, and GM6 Lynxes as battle rifles.

[roberthammer 582]

There's a major problem with damage in the game and this might fix it quite a bit, but if you complain and they revert this it'll be right back to seeing everybody walk around with Navids, SPMGs, Zafirs, and Mk200s as SMGs and Cyrus rifles, MAR-10s, and GM6 Lynxes as battle rifles.

True , that's the other problem with those rifles being like SMGs while they shouldn't - they don't have enough "penalty" to make players use the proper equipment

[Bucic 1]

Sorry for posting a completely non-contributing question but I literally stopped playing ArmA because of the current state of damage modeling. So, when do you guys think this could land in the stable branch? Alternatively, can I play the campaign with the DEV branch with minor to average issues?

[Jona33 51]

Sorry for posting a completely non-contributing question but I literally stopped playing ArmA because of the current state of damage modeling. So, when do you guys think this could land in the stable branch? Alternatively, can I play the campaign with the DEV branch with minor to average issues?

 

For the most part you can play the campaign fine on dev-branch. The main thing to watch is finishing a mission, because of the daily updates you'll never be able to continue a mission over two week days.

[froggyluv 2136]

Yes, most plates these days will take around 4 or 5 shots of 5.56, but what you're failing to grasp is that the human body sure as hell won't. After a single shot most people will have a few cracked ribs and a massive goose egg where that round landed. After the second shot, you'll die of internal hemorrhaging if you don't get first aid quickly, you'll have completely fractured ribs, and you'll likely have trouble breathing. This is where you really stop being an effective soldier. After the third shot, you're either on your ass and out like a light or you're dead. Plates might stop bullets, but they don't stop you from being a fleshy sack of water that's read to burst at any moment.

 

If you want to tank four or five shots, then ArmA really isn't the game for you in the past and shouldn't be that game now nor in the future. There's a major problem with damage in the game and this might fix it quite a bit, but if you complain and they revert this it'll be right back to seeing everybody walk around with Navids, SPMGs, Zafirs, and Mk200s as SMGs and Cyrus rifles, MAR-10s, and GM6 Lynxes as battle rifles.

 

 This is pretty baffling as there certainly  enough 'youtube' video evidence that seem to portray the opposite -that is, guys voluntarily taking shots then sitting down for a smoke and cup o joe. 99.96% of us have no idea what really happens other than this so it leaves us puzzled.

 

 That said, even if just for game parity, we need levels of armor that do protect on a mostly linear progression save some lucky shot or else its just all dress up Barbie. The game already has no behaviour distinction between skill and faction and no communication via animation or audio as to how hit, wounded, dead, mostly dead etc so it sorta becomes a murky mess as to who and what are supposed to be superior on the battlefield - this is especially true when pertaining to AI.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Sure enough, it probably isn't pleasant to get hit in the hard plate, and the deforming backside of the plate can be dangerous, but the bullet has a lot less KE than it had when it left the barrel, and the shooter's shoulder somehow managed to withstand that initial force.

Am I missing something?

[mamasan8 11]

True , that's the other problem with those rifles being like SMGs while they shouldn't - they don't have enough "penalty" to make players use the proper equipment

 

I see the problem from the other direction. There is no point using any gun with 5.56mm ammo. You will have to empty a clip to kill anyone. Unless you have an aimbot.

 

Coupled with the fact that bullets are shed off like a bee bumping into AI, it doesn't bring realistic gameplay. Even if I shoot them in the upperbody, they just keep firing back and usually end up killing me. So to avoid that, having my gun in automatic mode becomes a necessity cause then I have a shot at hitting AI enough times to actually kill them.

Unless I'm using 7.62mm or bigger bullets (sniper rifles).

[-Coulum- 35]

After a single shot most people will have a few cracked ribs and a massive goose egg where that round landed. After the second shot, you'll die of internal hemorrhaging if you don't get first aid quickly, you'll have completely fractured ribs, and you'll likely have trouble breathing. This is where you really stop being an effective soldier. After the third shot, you're either on your ass and out like a light or you're dead. Plates might stop bullets, but they don't stop you from being a fleshy sack of water that's read to burst at any moment.

I suppose you can argue that this is fake. But there are similar videos out there. It pretty much proves what you describe is incorrect. And thats point blank. I've seen tests shooting a plate 60+ times at range and it holds up (with 556).

 

don't stop you from being a fleshy sack of water that's read to burst at any moment.

 

If you want to tank four or five shots, then ArmA really isn't the game for you in the past and shouldn't be that game now nor in the future

I want the game to be realistic. You're right, in real life humans are  fleshy sacks of water (though still quite difficult to kill outright). But in real life armour is also quite effective. I like lethal gameplay. One pistol shot should be capable of killing anyone. But not if its used incorrectly. If you are repeatedly shooting someone in the plate, it should not do much. If you are not hitting the fleshy sack of water it doesn't matter that its a fleshy sack of water. Know what I mean?

 

the deforming backside of the plate can be dangerous, but the bullet has a lot less KE than it had when it left the barrel, and the shooter's shoulder somehow managed to withstand that initial force.

I believe some padding under the armour will pretty much eliminate any serious damage from the deforming plate. And momentum (Not KE) of recoil and bullet are the same. So the bullet wouldn't do much more than give you a tiny nudge. Pretty much matches up with the video I linked. 

 

FYI: It seem the armor rating of the CSAT fatigues have been lowered. It takes two shots with the P07 pistol to kill a soldier wearing only that. Seems much more realistic! ;)

Cheers!  B)

Honestly I don't really know what properties that suit has. Is it kevlar? Or some alien material? Impossible to say what is realistic. However I find it wierd that it takes as many pistol shots as it does rifle shots...

 

There is no point using any gun with 5.56mm ammo. You will have to empty a clip to kill anyone.

What about against unarmoured targets? I think the idea of devs were putting forth though is that the 556 simply became an inferior round because of the advances of armour and such. Thus why it is used by guerillas and "poorly" equipped armies. I don't really have a problem with that. overtime weapons become outdated. I do however still think that big guns are way to easy to handle. But thats a different topic.

[CaptainObvious 95]

..snip..

 

I believe some padding under the armour will pretty much eliminate any serious damage from the deforming plate. And momentum (Not KE) of recoil and bullet are the same. So the bullet wouldn't do much more than give you a

tiny nudge. Pretty much matches up with the video I linked. 

 

..snip..

 

Ye, somewhere I've read it's the hits in the back from big caliber bullets that can be nasty what comes to deformation, spine and stuff I guess.

That video is nice, unbelievable how tough those plates can be! 

 

(thanks for the correction)

[mx maximus 0]

 

Honestly I don't really know what properties that suit has. Is it kevlar? Or some alien material? Impossible to say what is realistic. However I find it wierd that it takes as many pistol shots as it does rifle shots...

 

I did not experiment with 6.5 or other caliber rifles. :(  As for realistic, I'm not really sure what things will change/improve(?) until 2030 (armors, bullets, weapons etc.). Anyway, I understand your concerns of the system and maybe saying that it's realistic was not the right word. Maybe I should have said it's more believable.

All I know is that emptying clips in close quarters into "unarmored" soldiers just to avoid getting shot was certainly not the right way to improve gameplay IMHO.

 

Anyhow, I think it's important to find the balance between realistic gameplay and playability and this system is another right step. Just to have the right amount of challenge so that we can all enjoy the game. I'd love if the game could more authentic (eg. states between living and dying with ragdoll) but unfortunately I'm afraid it's impossible that it'll happen in the near future. And I honestly want to think I'm wrong! :)

[rübe 127]

Anyhow, I think it's important to find the balance between realistic gameplay and playability and this system is another right step. Just to have the right amount of challenge so that we can all enjoy the game. I'd love if the game could more authentic (eg. states between living and dying with ragdoll) but unfortunately I'm afraid it's impossible that it'll happen in the near future. And I honestly want to think I'm wrong! :)

In the end this is a question of scenario/mission design. Maybe don't give a faction all that armor, if the other is equipped with 5.56mm guns for the most part. Or find other aspects to balance things out.

 

Take KOTH for example. It's not Arma's fault that every one (and their mom) runs around with a Navid/SPMG. It's just that the mission is badly designed. Instead of accumulating individual work towards "the best" equipment (which sticks permanently w/o additional costs... go figure), maybe that progression should be kept to the spawn of a single round of KOTH, where you each time start anew with cheap equippement, but can earn/unlock better stuff as the (single) game/round progresses... or what not. Many interesting mechanics can be thought of to come up with better balance and a more dynamic mission. E.g. why not give better toys to the side(s) currently losing?

[becubed 24]

I've always wondered if the Al-Qaeda guys in this complained about the lack of realism..
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2014/September/Navy-SEALs-Amazing-Survival-God-Get-Me-Home/

[mx maximus 0]

In the end this is a question of scenario/mission design. Maybe don't give a faction all that armor, if the other is equipped with 5.56mm guns for the most part. Or find other aspects to balance things out.

 

Take KOTH for example. It's not Arma's fault that every one (and their mom) runs around with a Navid/SPMG. It's just that the mission is badly designed. Instead of accumulating individual work towards "the best" equipment (which sticks permanently w/o additional costs... go figure), maybe that progression should be kept to the spawn of a single round of KOTH, where you each time start anew with cheap equippement, but can earn/unlock better stuff as the (single) game/round progresses... or what not. Many interesting mechanics can be thought of to come up with better balance and a more dynamic mission. E.g. why not give better toys to the side(s) currently losing?

 

That is absolutely true. But the thing is, I play ArmA 3 offline (seldom play coop missions with my friends). I also like playing as the guerilla faction (and that's why I tested the fatigues against pistols), it's really rewarding to get the better guns from AI soldiers only using pistols, so yeah, mission design is an important aspect but game improvements is another thing. I want be able to outsmart a reasonable amount of enemy AI units and now, using this new armor system, it's a possibility (eg. headshots in close quarters). That's what I tried to say in my last post.