Complete sandbox experience - not there yet

[Polygon 11]

From the recent memory, I found GTA5 to be one of the most diverse sandbox experiences for years - it features so much little details that you start to appreciate even by watchcing simple "GTA5 Mythbusters" videos.

Question is - when will A3 reach this level of systematic fidelity not only in terms of infantry / military simulation, but game-world interaction? I'd like to present a simple list with little details [ of unrealism, etc. ] missing. Not crucial, but they certainly help immersion.

1. uniforms - you can wear/steal them damaged (hit by a sabot, driven over by a tank, etc.), in seconds. applies for weaponry, backpacks too.
   
2. fake grenade throw action delay. not present for smokes grenades or chemlight...
   
3. no vehicle towing
   
4. no ability to drive a vehicle on another moving surface
   
5. cannot climb on vehicles
   
6. glass break of street lamps and other miscs missing
   
7. trees still animated. where's PhysX for them?
   
8. no manual/automatic gear simulation for vehicles
   
9. pure black heavy vehicles interiors
   
10. parachute simulation?
    
11. no PhysX for terrain objects at all (barrels don't explode...)
    
12. electricity, flame/fire simulation?
    
13. weird "optimization" techniques - like hiding normal models of buildings below their ruins after damage treshold
    
14. dirty, soaked, bloody materials?
    
15. cloth simulation?
    
16. waves, reflective water, underwater lighting?
    

... that's it for now. Please list your observations, tips, solutions.

It's evident that in games industry, when solving complex stuff for sandboxes, the primary effort should be in programming's than art's side. I personally don't care much about high-res, highpoly models and such.

Arma has great potential to become the best sandbox of all time. I wouldn't mind BIS using it. Of course, there goes assertions of game development as a business - iterational production, "evolution" to make sure players will buy the next installment of franchise X for its entertainment, innovatin, else.

Criticisms listed here do not imply A3 is a bad game and worsening - it certainly introduced lots of new things. Just put effort into noticing them (I already made a thread on this in the past).

[Greenfist 1863]

3. towing: I thought this could be done with scripts?

4. no ability to drive a vehicle on another moving surface: Are you sure? You can atleast park vehicles on a moving surface

sort of.

5. cannot climb on vehicles: characters can't climb anything but couldn't you just drop from a roof onto a car?

6. glass break of street lamps: you can shoot them and put them out?

7. Physx trees: Now where would you find processing power for all those visible trees?

8. vehicles already have automatic gear. Manual is hardly needed. This isn't Grand Theft Arma.

10. parachute simulation: isn't it featured already?

11. "barrels don't explode": This isn't Doom :D

12. more advanced fire simulation would in fact be realistic

15. cloth simulation: For cooler looking flags?

16. Waves: I'm pretty sure I've seen waves in the game.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Greenfist

[13islucky 10]

[quote=Polygon;2575746

[*]no manual/automatic gear simulation for vehicles

I was looking a bit into the reorganized controls that the Enhanced Interaction System mod brings and noticed that there was a section called "Unknown Controls," and inside it was

Car Accelerate

Gear Up

Gear Down

Car Shift: 1

Car Shift: 2

Car Shift: 3

Car Shift: 4

Car Shift: 5

Car Shift: 6

Car Shift: 7

Car Shift: 8

Car Shift: Reverse 1

Car Shift: Reserve 2

I personally haven't used them, or even know if they work, but I thought that it would be interesting to mention.

[laverniusregalis 10]

You know we can smash out the lights in street/floodlights right?

Also, no kidding it isn't finished, it's made by BIS.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I would talk about a possible switch in game engine, but i'm going to keep it to myself until the final game is finished before i bring it up fully. But right now, i'm still waiting for things like vehicle interaction, fast ropes, new flight model for fixed wing, better weather options... and maybe a few other things.

[runekn 3]

This isn't even supposed to compete with GTA.

2 different games with different goals.

Oh, and just to counter your arguments. Does GTA have a advanced editor with own scripting language + tools that allow for all those great things that make Arma the king it is?

[Westonsammy 1]

Unlike GTA, BIs aren't looking to make a real life simulator, they are looking to make a military sandbox. Things like cloth simulation, dirty/soaked materials (bloody could be used in medical systems), PhysX for trees, and other points you make aren't necessary at all for a military sandbox, they just add some extra prettiness/slightly more immersion to the game. And although immersion is important, I think that accurate simulation and editing tools come first.

[dale0404 5]

I would talk about a possible switch in game engine, but i'm going to keep it to myself until the final game is finished before i bring it up fully. But right now, i'm still waiting for things like vehicle interaction, fast ropes, new flight model for fixed wing, better weather options... and maybe a few other things.

Its been mentioned numerous times before, no need to mention it again...

[progamer 14]

I would talk about a possible switch in game engine, but i'm going to keep it to myself until the final game is finished before i bring it up fully. But right now, i'm still waiting for things like vehicle interaction, fast ropes, new flight model for fixed wing, better weather options... and maybe a few other things.

We already have a weather simulator. What we need is the Simul Sky Sequencer tool to help control it and the scripting commands to be global

---------- Post added at 01:00 ---------- Previous post was at 00:57 ----------

From the recent memory, I found GTA5 to be one of the most diverse sandbox experiences for years - it features so much little details that you start to appreciate even by watchcing simple "GTA5 Mythbusters" videos.

Question is - when will A3 reach this level of systematic fidelity not only in terms of infantry / military simulation, but game-world interaction? I'd like to present a simple list with little details [ of unrealism, etc. ] missing. Not crucial, but they certainly help immersion.

1. uniforms - you can wear/steal them damaged (hit by a sabot, driven over by a tank, etc.), in seconds. applies for weaponry, backpacks too.
   
2. fake grenade throw action delay. not present for smokes grenades or chemlight...
   
3. no vehicle towing
   
4. no ability to drive a vehicle on another moving surface
   
5. cannot climb on vehicles
   
6. glass break of street lamps and other miscs missing
   
7. trees still animated. where's PhysX for them?
   
8. no manual/automatic gear simulation for vehicles
   
9. pure black heavy vehicles interiors
   
10. parachute simulation?
    
11. no PhysX for terrain objects at all (barrels don't explode...)
    
12. electricity, flame/fire simulation?
    
13. weird "optimization" techniques - like hiding normal models of buildings below their ruins after damage treshold
    
14. dirty, soaked, bloody materials?
    
15. cloth simulation?
    
16. waves, reflective water, underwater lighting?
    

... that's it for now. Please list your observations, tips, solutions.

It's evident that in games industry, when solving complex stuff for sandboxes, the primary effort should be in programming's than art's side. I personally don't care much about high-res, highpoly models and such.

Arma has great potential to become the best sandbox of all time. I wouldn't mind BIS using it. Of course, there goes assertions of game development as a business - iterational production, "evolution" to make sure players will buy the next installment of franchise X for its entertainment, innovatin, else.

Criticisms listed here do not imply A3 is a bad game and worsening - it certainly introduced lots of new things. Just put effort into noticing them (I already made a thread on this in the past).

Not sure why you say unrealistic, because the things you list are realistic and some are already in VBS. But stop with the Arma is a sandbox because it's not. Arma 3 is as much a sandbox as VBS2 is. Arma is a combined arms simulator. If it was a sandbox it would be a lot different. It has sandbox like features. We need more realistic options though not stupid arcade options.

[Sandy* 10]

Sandbox is not a synonym to open-world even if a lot mainstream media and the bullshitting marketing departments of certain publishers/devs try to tell you so. In a real sandbox game the players have a direct ability or some other subtle way to shape the world around them, and usually such games are completely open-ended with dynamic/emergent gameplay instead of having real specific objectives (e.g. Minecraft, Transport Tycoon, Eve Online and so on).

GTA is not a sandbox but an open-world "theme park" where you complete well-scripted tasks and storylines in the order of your choosing. Arma is difficult case as lots of things depend on the mission - it's not even open-world if the mission designer chose so, and none of the vanilla content so far feature sandbox gameplay (mission creation is not part of gameplay and more comparable to modding).

[dale0404 5]

and none of the vanilla content so far feature sandbox gameplay (mission creation is not part of gameplay and more comparable to modding).

I would love to know your reasoning behind that statement, especially the latter part of it.

[Sandy* 10]

I would love to know your reasoning behind that statement, especially the latter part of it.

My post laid out the difference of sandbox and "just" open-world quite directly, or am I mistaken?

As for mission creation - if you consider the editor, placing units, creating triggers, writing lines and lines of SQF and so on to be part of the game's actual gameplay, then it is me who's interested in your reasoning. ;)

The editor might be a sandbox, but you use it to build something to be played instead of playing and building something via gameplay interaction.

[dale0404 5]

My post laid out the difference of sandbox and "just" open-world quite directly, or am I mistaken?

As for mission creation - if you consider the editor, placing units, creating triggers, writing lines and lines of SQF and so on to be part of the game's actual gameplay, then it is me who's interested in your reasoning. ;)

The editor might be a sandbox, but you use it to build something to be played instead of playing and building something via gameplay interaction.

From the tone of that reply it looks (to me) like you are trying to belittle my reply to you. If this is the case then don't bother replying to this reply as I will just ignore the reply that you write in response to my reply. Understand? Good. :D

The editor is a sandbox, there is no "might" about it. And the editor is truly awesome if you put in a little time and effort. Unique experience every time? Yeah, I can dig that. And, btw you don't need to write SQF code to enjoy the editor.

There are missions available (both SP and MP) that let you build something via gameplay interaction. DUWS and Whole Lotta Altis spring to mind.

[jw custom 56]

Nice, a disguised "wanted features" request thread :)

[Sandy* 10]

From the tone of that reply it looks (to me) like you are trying to belittle my reply to you. If this is the case then don't bother replying to this reply as I will just ignore the reply that you write in response to my reply. Understand? Good. :D

Well you did post a question asking the exact thing I explained (to my best knowledge) in my original post, hence I'm asking if I'm mistaken. And this is a discussion forum, so if you don't want your posts to be replied, then don't post at all? :confused:

The editor is a sandbox, there is no "might" about it. And the editor is truly awesome if you put in a little time and effort. Unique experience every time? Yeah, I can dig that. And, btw you don't need to write SQF code to enjoy the editor.

There are missions available (both SP and MP) that let you build something via gameplay interaction. DUWS and Whole Lotta Altis spring to mind.

I'm not arguing with you on this, that "might" part was just a piece of linguistic expression, just as that SQF thing was just part of a list of things related to mission creation. I spent about half of my time on Arma 2 in the editor and scripting - with Arma 3 that's somewhere around 90%, with over 300 hours clocked in. The point I'm trying to make is that mission creation isn't gameplay, you're just working with tools to create something that you and other people can play and experience. Otherwise any videogame with mod tools would have "sandbox gameplay".

For that last paragraph of yours, I'd like to point out my exact words were "none of the vanilla content so far feature sandbox gameplay", hinting that community-made stuff do.

[dale0404 5]

I am not arguing at all! And you are quite right in saying this is a discussion forum, so apologies if I seemed to come across a little abrasive :D

Point taken about the vanilla content as well.