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Oligo

Band of brothers

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I just saw the last episode of Band of Brothers. I must say that the series deserves some appreciation, because especially in the last two episodes germans are portrayed as human beings and yanks are shown performing loot, rape and kill in Germany.

This brings me to the point of this post. The series makes it pretty clear that most of the characters of the series actually exist even today. You know, those old geezers are shown at the end of the last episode and at the beginning of each episode. However, in the last episode, some of the officers are shown looting german buldings, which is of course illegal, even if you're an occupying soldier. Me, I'd be careful confessing stuff like that, even after this much time. Of course, theft as a crime does expire after some years.

Murder, on the other hand, does not expire, ever. Still they show Liebgott, Webster and some third person hunt down and execute a german man they think is a "comendant" of a camp. This happens after the peace has come.

I don't know whether the killed man was a comendant or not. I do know however, that doing what Liebgott, Webster and co. did is generally considered vigilanteism (=bad). I find it quite surprising that after Liebgott and Webster clearly confess a murder on telly, no enterprising district attorney has taken up a case against them in the promised land of law, U.S.

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I was thinking in the same lines here...

I thought that some of those three (Liebgott,Webster..) received an order

to go there, or at least some of them claimed that he had received an order

"and is delighted to follow it", or something like that..

The series was really nice, IMO.

Or maybe it wouldn't have been so good if it wasn't based on real

happenings and real characters.

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I dunno if it's easy to judge something that happened so long ago... and i'm pretty sure that ppl won't blame them for doing it, i don't.

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Does murder expire in U.S.? Because in Finland, you can never get away with murder by hiding for so long that they will not prosecute you anymore. They will always prosecute you for a murder.

People blaming them is not the issue here. Despite of public opinion, the law should be same for everybody. I'm sure the german would have wanted to live, if you could ask him (but you can't because he is dead).

Anyway, I perfectly well understand behaviour like shown in the last episode of BoB. After killing people and fearing for your life for over a year, how can you just suddenly return to normal? Based on that, I personally would never go and judge Webster, Liebgott and co. However, those lawyer bastards don't care about circumstances. Thus I'm quite amazed that nobody has started a case on this.

Maybe the germans should sue... ehh, wait a minute, U.S. is not part of the ICC. biggrin.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 28 2002,12:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does murder expire in U.S.? Because in Finland, you can never get away with murder by hiding for so long that they will not prosecute you anymore. They will always prosecute you for a murder.

People blaming them is not the issue here. Despite of public opinion, the law should be same for everybody. I'm sure the german would have wanted to live, if you could ask him (but you can't because he is dead).

Anyway, I perfectly well understand behaviour like shown in the last episode of BoB. After killing people and fearing for your life for over a year, how can you just suddenly return to normal? Based on that, I personally would never go and judge Webster, Liebgott and co. However, those lawyer bastards don't care about circumstances. Thus I'm quite amazed that nobody has started a case on this.

Maybe the germans should sue... ehh, wait a minute, U.S. is not part of the ICC.  biggrin.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Hehehehe, nice one biggrin.gif

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"I dunno if it's easy to judge something that happened so long ago... and i'm pretty sure that ppl won't blame them for doing it, i don't."

So you think it is ok to take the law into your own hands and murder someone, without a trial, if they are suspected of being murderers themselves?

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No not at all, at least not these days, but you have to remember that all that happened 60 years ago, while there was a war going on...

If I saw what I think is a German commandant who pro'ly was responsible for several of dead allies, and i saw him right after the war, i'd kill him, Germans were being executed all over the place.  Even kids were executed by allies without a trial (can't remember the name, Jugendsomething, kids that fought for Hitler).  I'd kill him just as revenge even if it's completely wrong.... You know you won't get a trial for killing that man, after all, if this person wouldn't have told anyone about him killing that German man then nobody would've known about it.

This stuff still happens and it IS wrong but in their situation i might've done the same... just because i'd hate that guy so hard...

' Course i can't know that i'd kill him for sure but there is a chance that i'd have done the same....

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Aug. 29 2002,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Surley all the countries that fought did the same thing, yes it may be wrong, but it was war.<span id='postcolor'>

"But it was war" is no excuse for anything. I am glad to see some honesty from allied soldiers who commited crimes though.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 29 2002,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe the germans should sue... ehh, wait a minute, U.S. is not part of the ICC.  biggrin.gif<span id='postcolor'>

If we're going to be accused of war crimes based on a TV show, well, you do the math.  wink.gif

Semper Fi

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Aug. 30 2002,00:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 29 2002,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe the germans should sue... ehh, wait a minute, U.S. is not part of the ICC.  biggrin.gif<span id='postcolor'>

If we're going to be accused of war crimes based on a TV show, well, you do the math.  wink.gif

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

It's a series based on a book that was based on interviews with the men who were there.

You exhibit an unusual paranoia of being accused of war crimes. Something to hide? wink.gif

I dont think you would find a single person that truly wants to prosecute WW II vets for crimes of this order.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 30 2002,00:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You exhibit an unusual paranoia of being accused of war crimes. Something to hide? wink.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps I should have used two smiley icons, or one really big one...

Not paranoid; I just find the idea professionally insulting.

BTW, "U-571"? It was really the English. Striving to unblur the lines between reality and entertainment. wink.gif

Semper Fi

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Aug. 30 2002,00:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 30 2002,00:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You exhibit an unusual paranoia of being accused of war crimes. Something to hide? wink.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps I should have used two smiley icons, or one really big one...

Not paranoid; I just find the idea professionally insulting.

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

How so?

It is insulting to be held accountable for your actions?

The way I see it, the ICC is not about going after Joe Average soldier who might have commited a crime. It's going after the larger figures. Like the platoon commander who orders his men to eliminate everyone in a village he suspects may be harbouring the enemy or things like that. Or if there is systematic criminal offences that are not properly dealt with by the comanders of the army. That sort of thing.

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Wow, this is amazing. You're criticizing men who killed the commandant of a concentration camp. There's no mention of how the Russians raped and looted a hundred times more than the Allies did.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (billytran @ Aug. 30 2002,00:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow, this is amazing.  You're criticizing men who killed the commandant of a concentration camp.  There's no mention of how the Russians raped and looted a hundred times more than the Allies did.<span id='postcolor'>

The Russian were one of the allies. Besides what the russians did doesn't excuse any one else. If a British officer had a town of innocents shelled or raped I'd want him brought to justice, why don't you think Americans should face the law they flount?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 30 2002,00:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How so?  

It is insulting to be held accountable for your actions?

The way I see it, the ICC is not about going after Joe Average soldier who might have commited a crime.  It's going after the larger figures.  Like the platoon commander who orders his men to eliminate everyone in a village he suspects may be harbouring the enemy or things like that.  Or if there is systematic criminal offences that are not properly dealt with by the comanders of the army.  That sort of thing.<span id='postcolor'>

Once again, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of an OBJECTIVE ICC. Furthermore, I'd suggest that culpability for any substantiated war crimes should extend further down the chain than just the platoon commander (for e.g.). Just because someone's collar emblem isn't shiny doesn't mean that they don't know right from wrong.

Just out of curiousity (other than "The Daily Show" I don't watch much TV), did the actual vets on BOB verify that this PARTICULAR incident was factually accurate?

Semper Fi

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I personally think that they were overcome with rage when they had seen what the Germans had done to the Jews. Eventhough I am not Jewish, I still would want to hunt down the bastard and kill him. Im sure everyone that saw the camps would agree.

What if your brother, or son, or wife had been killed at that camp? You'd be pissed.

BTW I think that some people here have issues about being so politically correct that its disgusting. I think you know who you are.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Aug. 30 2002,01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I personally think that they were overcome with rage when they had seen what the Germans had done to the Jews. Eventhough I am not Jewish, I still would want to hunt down the bastard and kill him. Im sure everyone that saw the camps would agree.

What if your brother, or son, or wife had been killed at that camp? You'd be pissed.

BTW I think that some people here have issues about being so politically correct that its disgusting. I think you know who you are.<span id='postcolor'>

A crime commited during a war is not neccessarily a 'War Crime'. The merits of induvidual cases such as killing an SS murderer are rather irrelevant.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Aug. 30 2002,01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I personally think that they were overcome with rage when they had seen what the Germans had done to the Jews. Eventhough I am not Jewish, I still would want to hunt down the bastard and kill him. Im sure everyone that saw the camps would agree.

What if your brother, or son, or wife had been killed at that camp? You'd be pissed.

BTW I think that some people here have issues about being so politically correct that its disgusting. I think you know who you are.<span id='postcolor'>

It's not about being politically correct. It's about trying to maintain one set of laws and ethics systems for everyone.

I am one of the least politically correct people you are likely to meet. I do however subscribe to the view that if you are going to create rules and laws, they ought to be followed regardless of who you are dealing with.

So far the ICC seems pretty impartial, so I dont know why you are assuming they wont be...

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Oh, and about the U571 thing, at the end it said that american scientists were the ones who broke the enigma's code, well, actually it was Polish codebreakers working for the british who decoded it.  tounge.gif  confused.gif

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Sort of like the doctored photo of the Brits in Africa capturing a Nazi tank that the MOHAA guys changed to Americans

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW I think that some people here have issues about being so politically correct that its disgusting.<span id='postcolor'>

I was thinking the same thing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sort of like the doctored photo of the Brits in Africa capturing a Nazi tank that the MOHAA guys changed to Americans<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, I remember making an angry post here a while ago about that as soon as I saw that picture. That is one of the worst games I have ever spent money on.

Tyler

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 30 2002,02:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So far the ICC seems pretty impartial, so I dont know why you are assuming they wont be...<span id='postcolor'>

Pretty much every UN summit ends up criticizing America for something or other. Look at the Kyoto Treaty, it would only lower temperatures by one degree and destroy American industry. You just can't have a a court on an international scale that's not political. There are already ways to deal with war crimes. The UN will just try to hurt America on this one.

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