Damage system sucks - fix needed

[gossamersolid 155]

Extended armor only applies in singleplayer and only makes the player more difficult to kill.

Do you have a source for this? I've never been told it was one way or the other by any developer.

[haleks 8212]

Extended armor only applies in singleplayer and only makes the player more difficult to kill.

Why would it be enabled in MP then?

[maturin 12]

Why would it be enabled in MP then?

It's not enabled in MP. MP and SP simply share difficulty settings.

If you look at the menu, you will see that the difficulty settings include MP-only features like Was Killed messages.

[BL1P 35]

Are you 100% sure on this maturin as I think extended armour does work below Veteran level in MP but does not work in Veteran and Elite.

Same as you can't turn on some settings in Elite because its hard coded that way. 3rd for example.

Edit : Only ever play on elite normally but I have played on regular and I noticed my guy could take a lot more hits than on elite.

Edited July 19, 2014 by BL1P

[.kju 3244]

@ UltimateBawb

Where do you take this knowledge from? Do you have an official source to confirm this or documented tests?

In OFP it certainly applies to all units and also MP. Pretty sure in A1 it was also true.

Maybe you mean the armorCoef?

class CfgDifficulties
class Recruit
	class Flags
		armor[] = {1,1};
	myArmorCoef = 1.5;
	groupArmorCoef = 1.5;
class Regular
	class Flags
		armor[] = {1,1};
	myArmorCoef = 1.2;
	groupArmorCoef = 1.2;
class Veteran
	class Flags
		armor[] = {0,0};
	myArmorCoef = 1;
	groupArmorCoef = 1;
class Mercenary
	class Flags
		armor[] = {0,0};
	myArmorCoef = 1;
	groupArmorCoef = 1;

---------- Post added at 07:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 AM ----------

So i took 10 minutes to verify it.

It does make a difference in MP.

Verified with DevCon and damage cusorTarget.

In expert it takes 2-3 body hits from close distance (~10m). Three different targets: Friendly unit (same side, allied side) and unit in your group.

In recruit it takes 4-5 body hits.

Probably at distance when bullets loose energy and thus damage the results have even more of an effect in terms of gameplay.

---------- Post added at 07:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 AM ----------

@ maturin

BI just never bothered to split them properly in the UI..

Edited July 19, 2014 by .kju [PvPscene]

[Tonci87 163]

2-3 body shots from 10 meters is still too much. Bis should check what assault rifles do to vests at that distance IRL.Unless you wear a plate carrier the bullets will go right through.

Currently one of my main problems with the game.

[-Coulum- 35]

2-3 body shots from 10 meters is still too much. Bis should check what assault rifles do to vests at that distance IRL.Unless you wear a plate carrier the bullets will go right through.

Currently one of my main problems with the game.

But isn't pretty much every one in game armed with a plate carrier aside from opfor with their weird ass armour? And those that aren't do actually drop very fast. one 556 to an unarmoured person drops him.

Its been said many time before, and by you as well of course: Problem is armour coverage and the reaction of the player/ai to a hit. Until those are fixed, what we got now is the best balance we can get between useful armour, realism and unforgiving mechanics imo.

[BL1P 35]

So was I correct about Veteran and Elite ?

Looking at the CfgDifficulties and things like

armor[] = {1,1};

where 1,1 is armor[] = {default , userCanChange};

From that it seems Recruit, Regular are ON and can be turned OFF whereas Veteran, Elite are always OFF and can not be turned ON ?

So in fact there is no modifier for myArmorCoef or groupArmorCoef in Veteran or Elite (well there is but its 1 :) ). Unless you use an addon.

I think I got that right ish maybe :)

@kju did you run your tests with armour on for the lower difficulties or was it off ?

Just wondering if armour is OFF in Recruit or Regular do you still take 4-5 or do you take 2-3.

Myself I think that you can still take more damage in the lower two options with the armour difficulty set to off than you can in the high two options.

Edited July 19, 2014 by BL1P

[Bucic 1]

I was just about to post a new thread but did a search first and found this thread. What I initially intended to post:

I've bought ArmA 3 at v.1.24 and I've noticed it right away while playing campaign. It takes many shots to kill AI. Two examples:

1. I've seen lots of this one. I'm in a house shooting at an AI 3 m from me. Chest hit. AI "shakes it off" (animation). Second shot kills AI. BTW, the animation is ~0.5s (sic!).

2. Campaign: Adapt, Gori, Breaking Even. Task: Eliminate the mortar. I shot at soldiers blocking my way, near the ruins, just before the road you need to cross. Two of them in dark uniforms. Distance: ~30-50 m. The first one took 3 hits to the chest, died of a headshot. Second time: 4 hits to the chest!

Difficulty setting: Regular (unedited)

But I see it doesn't matter as the issue is common. The quote below actually describes it well

and finally now I put 4-6 rounds into an OPFOR at point blank with an MX rifle, and *while my bullets are impacting his body,* he proceeds to kill me in a single shot.

And this http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=2729919#post2729919

Which is a two-fold issue:

1. AI takes too much hits to kill.

2. AI can conduct a 100% effective fire while being shot at. It flinges for a brief moment but I wouldn't say it bothers.

This sucks so much I actually stopped playing the campaign. Can anyone recommend a quick set of mods to address it at least remotely? I thinkthese AI mods (as suggested in the topic I've started earlier would work but I can't seem to find a mod that corrects rifle/vest hitpoints.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Bucic

[haleks 8212]

I wonder if the issue is not the shaking anim : whenever it happens to me, I have the feeling that my bullets aren't doing any damage if they hit the target while it is twitching/shaking.

[Bucic 1]

BTW, I used to play previous ArmA games. I was about to invite a friend to show him off the ArmA 3. I'm glad it didn't happen. I'd look like a fool.

[Jona33 51]

BTW, I used to play previous ArmA games. I was about to invite a friend to show him off the ArmA 3. I'm glad it didn't happen. I'd look like a fool.

In fairness, how effective do you think shooting a ceramic plate is going to be?

The issue is the AI don't respond, the body armour itself should withstand the shot but the person isn't going to be in great shape, hence the advantage of mods like "ragdoll'd", the lack of a decent wounding system doesn't help. It seems the AI take the right number of shots to kill but because they don't become ineffective until they're killed, unlike in the real world where even a bullet in the arm (a minor event in ARMA) would probably take you out of action.

EDIT: Just did some surgical testing with the P07 and using the shot in the arms test (very visible results). When shooting a unit in the arms (when they're holding their weapon up) the AI suffer from no sway, upon switching to that AI I get massive weapons sway which is how it should be. Since the mechanics are implemented it would be cool if BI properly implemented the sway for AI.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Jona33

[Bucic 1]

In fairness, how effective do you think shooting a ceramic plate is going to be?

The issue is the AI don't respond, the body armour itself should withstand the shot but the person isn't going to be in great shape, hence the advantage of mods like "ragdoll'd", the lack of a decent wounding system doesn't help. It seems the AI take the right number of shots to kill but because they don't become ineffective until they're killed, unlike in the real world where even a bullet in the arm (a minor event in ARMA) would probably take you out of action.

EDIT: Just did some surgical testing with the P07 and using the shot in the arms test (very visible results). When shooting a unit in the arms (when they're holding their weapon up) the AI suffer from no sway, upon switching to that AI I get massive weapons sway which is how it should be. Since the mechanics are implemented it would be cool if BI properly implemented the sway for AI.

We've paid a handsome amount for a product and here we are dissecting the issue to bits and pieces. I refuse to take part in it. I'm reviewing the issue tracker as we speak to decide what to do with it. Also no wonder more and more developers insist on digital copies.

'Kneel and do nothing for a second'

Here's what would actually be better than the current 'implementation'.

Issue tracker search results for 'damage' (from the most recently updated):

0005377: Add realistic body armour.

0016542: Unrealistic Weapon damage

0003002: Realistic Wounding System

0005403: visual injuries (animation)

0001580: Better ragdoll

Conclusion:

* Guys in the most popular ticket started to repeat the points made over and over due to no response from developers.

* ArmA 2 implementation was better overall

Edited August 23, 2014 by Bucic

[Tonci87 163]

The new system has potential but it is wasted on an implementation like this. For a start BIS could make Vests apply protection only to the area they cover instead of the whole torso.

[Bucic 1]

BIS could make the hits be recorded at 10mm precision and it wouldn't make much of a difference as long as AI is bothered by nothing but actual death.

As for my review of the feedback tracker tickets, the issues have been assigned to someone but there's not an official word on the issue. Notably, there's not a word on any AI nor damage model improvement in the http://www.bistudio.com/english/company/developers-blog/460-arma-3-roadmap-201415 Unless someone is a hopeless optimist and thinks Arma 3 Marksmen is going to focus on issues around firing weapons and effects.

All in all after hundreds of hours with previous ArmAs and with ~50 hours with ArmA 3 I'm ready to dish out a 'not recommended' review for it. I mean, com on, it has been a year since the release.

[Bouben 3]

I have no problem with armour in the game but soldiers should definitely fall down when hit to a leg. I also think the twitching when hit to a vest is a bit too funky. It should be less pronounced.

[twisted 128]

Proper feedback on impact is just as important. And I don't mean the spasm the ai do now, that needs a lot more work. There should be a particle effect on impact. Blood or the beige of cloth if it hits body armor. Then you know your are at least hitting your target. Then ai should fall on bigger hits to show substantial damage has been sustained. They might get back up or if badly wounded they might just lie there don't but still able to sit if you get too close. There should be screams of pain or at left saying fuck I'm hit. Calling for medic, etc. It's essential feedback that rewards shooting. Whereas now if you don't use some mods you often are guessing as to whether you're hitting the target, made worse by the multiple bullets it takes to kill.

[Gutsnav 13]

It's weird, they already have the AI ragdoll when hit. But they only ragdoll for a split second.

[maturin 12]

The problem with hit reactions is that full-body mo-capped animations are required. Not just an idle animation, but something that influences movement and posture as well.

The likeliest candidate wouldn't be the violent spinal spasm we have now, but a generalized jolt or recoiling motion. Left hands come the weapon, take a half-step back, etc. And that's as a minimum for non-wounding hits to body armor, unless you want to model the occasional "adrenaline-fueled-bullet-ignoring" reaction. Simply falling down should be the most common result. When people are shot in combat, they tend to assume that they are dead and act accordingly.

[Bouben 3]

The problem with hit reactions is that full-body mo-capped animations are required. Not just an idle animation, but something that influences movement and posture as well.

The likeliest candidate wouldn't be the violent spinal spasm we have now, but a generalized jolt or recoiling motion. Left hands come the weapon, take a half-step back, etc. And that's as a minimum for non-wounding hits to body armor, unless you want to model the occasional "adrenaline-fueled-bullet-ignoring" reaction. Simply falling down should be the most common result. When people are shot in combat, they tend to assume that they are dead and act accordingly.

But I don't want too see constant fall-stand-up-again when killing someone with 5 shots. That looks akward.

I am for a well-done twitching of some kind and particle effects and for always falling when hit to legs and a helmet.

[Bucic 1]

But I don't want too see constant fall-stand-up-again when killing someone with 5 shots. That looks akward.

I am for a well-done twitching of some kind and particle effects and for always falling when hit to legs and a helmet.

WTF are we even talking about here guys? F.E.A.R. 1 had it 9 years ago!

[St. Jimmy 272]

The infantry damage and medic system really needs to change. Priority #1 after optimizations IMO.

[Bouben 3]

WTF are we even talking about here guys? F.E.A.R. 1 had it 9 years ago!

There is a lot of games that have this.

The best in this area is definitely GTA 4 but that is currently probably unachievable in Arma 3.

Oh...and the old OFP had reactions to legs hits too.

[miketim 20]

Yeah remember in ofp if you got shot in the legs while sprinting, you would like trip and flip over or something and dive into the ground dead

[Bouben 3]

Yeah remember in ofp if you got shot in the legs while sprinting, you would like trip and flip over or something and dive into the ground dead

No. You would simply be forced to get prone or a normal running-death animation would trigger that was the same for every hitzone. There was no a special relation between legs and some kind of exclusive death animation.