Player can be driver and gunner at the same time... only solution

[lapa 1]

I'm in favour of OP's and maturin's arguments. As we can't give precise voice commands to AI like we can to human drivers, manual input is the next best thing. One player juggling two tasks is far from being overpowering.

I'm puzzled by steamtex's ad hominems and claims of game ruining effect when he agrees to rundll.exe's workaround suggestion (#56) in #59. Rundll.exe's suggestion of removing LEFT/RIGHT commands tries to achieve what steamtex's argued against the whole thread - direct control that is. Although, AI would still get confused by nearby objects and maneuvering the vehicle would still be crippled and unpredictable.

Disclaimer: I've never played CoD, Battlefield or any other fragfest games, lest my opinion gets dismissed on that basis.

[tvig0r0us 27]

I think of all of the suggestions I've seen in these forums, this one is among the best ideas out there to make the game a bit more enjoyable to play. I've pondered this kind of idea many times myself. For those making the realism argument, I really don't see that as a valid argument given the backdrop of unrealistic game elements that exist outside of this suggestion. If you're like me you might find yourself driving to a spot, then jumping into the gunner's position, then back to driver and so forth. What is the realism in that?? I don't see how this would effect realism in any way that would degrade the already unrealistic elements of the game. And by the way, this is a game, played for enjoyment, so for goodness sake why not try to make it more enjoyable. Just my two cents.

Cheers :D

Voted up on tracker... Thanks for the ticket ProGamer.

Edited November 17, 2013 by tvig0r0us

[progamer 14]

I think of all of the suggestions I've seen in these forums, this one is among the best ideas out there to make the game a bit more enjoyable to play. I've pondered this kind of idea many times myself. For those making the realism argument, I really don't see that as a valid argument given the backdrop of unrealistic game elements that exist outside of this suggestion. If you're like me you might find yourself driving to a spot, then jumping into the gunner's position, then back to driver and so forth. What is the realism in that?? I don't see how this would effect realism in any way that would degrade the already unrealistic elements of the game. And by the way, this is a game, played for enjoyment, so for goodness sake why not try to make it more enjoyable. Just my two cents.

Cheers :D

Voted up on tracker... Thanks for the ticket ProGamer.

Lol at the people that are upset of realism with this issue. VBS has scripting commands for this. If VBS the military training software has it, then I see no issue as to why Arma cannot have it.

[laverniusregalis 10]

I'm in favour of OP's and maturin's arguments. As we can't give precise voice commands to AI like we can to human drivers, manual input is the next best thing. One player juggling two tasks is far from being overpowering.

I'm puzzled by steamtex's ad hominems and claims of game ruining effect when he agrees to rundll.exe's workaround suggestion (#56) in #59. Rundll.exe's suggestion of removing LEFT/RIGHT commands tries to achieve what steamtex's argued against the whole thread - direct control that is. Although, AI would still get confused by nearby objects and maneuvering the vehicle would still be crippled and unpredictable.

Disclaimer: I've never played CoD, Battlefield or any other fragfest games, lest my opinion gets dismissed on that basis.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally misunderstanding me or not, but I'll explain:

I disagree with a "manual drive" system, but I think it would be a good idea to remove the voiceover from the "LEFT", "RIGHT", and "FAST" commands, since they just delay the action more than is needed. What would be really interesting to see instead would be the ability to order the driver to drive at a certain speed, for a certain distance in meters, or to turn a specific number of degrees.

[lexx 1331]

I wouldn't necessarily remove all the "LEFT"s and "RIGHT"s, etc. but reduce them a lot. Like, If you press the left-key multiple times in x seconds, you don't get a delay or the message for that time. This would also help to reduce the annoying LEFT, LEFT, LEFT, LEFT, FORWARD, STOP, LEFT, FORWARD, etc. when you are in clumsy terrain.

[x3kj 1247]

Here is the solution:

Stop the AI from "thinking" for itself when you give orders.

If i want reverse i want reverse and not some dumb AI that thinks it can't go reverse for some unknown reason and doesn't even try to do it. Or if i want to go fast, drive fast. And not suddenly stop or crawl. I ordered something, so the result is my responsibility (which i gladly take). This also means you could finally drive through destructable obstacles with adequate agility.

The AI does not help in any the situation at all if you order it directly, it doesnt avoid obstacles, follows roads or else. It just disregards orders/ does the wrong thing, but it never does anything usefull. So no harm in just switching the "thinking" off completely - if ordered around by WASD keys.

If i want it to "think" i use waypoints or order it to a specific location.

Nothing worse to be in a good firing position, shoot, order reverse and nothing happens because the driver confuses brakes with gas.

This already would improve the situation alot.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Fennek

[Vasily.B 529]

12 years in 2011 + 5 (we have 2016 now) situation havent changed at all - Ai cannot reverse when someone is standing nex to me (10M radious). How.....how is this even possible - 17 years..............This game have no future IMHO if they couldnt fix it by such long time, or at least  this engine have no future.

[scotg 204]

I'm glad to have gotten to the end of this thread and found that someone else has brought it back to life after two years. My seven months since then doesn't seem so bad all of a sudden, and I was very eager to throw in my $0.02 after reading through it. BTW, I found this topic while searching for -any- tutorial in allowing some small, one-man vehicles I modeled a semi-turret functionality - think small helis and tanks with turrets that move like human heads, and can even be operated with TrackIR... If anyone wants to discuss/brainstorm this with me further, then we could start a new topic or a PM, or both!

The problem I saw in this thread is that people seemed to be using extreme examples on both sides of the fence, and hung up on the whole "Arcade vs. Simulation" principle. I just want to point out some things I've noticed:

Each person's definition of "simulation" is different. Personally, I like my simulation via immersion focused on realism of visuals, sound, and movement. Working with a team to accomplish a goal is even better, when practical. I liked BF2/3/4/2142 because they immerse you with animations and visual qualities (each according to their time), but it did seem hokey in BF when one person could control an M1A2, carrying out a 4-man job with just one guy. I like Arma 2/3 because they provide large battlegrounds, a sense of being part of a team, and even the long spans of between-the-action draw me in. However the simulation of A2/3 tends to be a joke when the AI can't move for crap, and you have the same lack of player animations that most other FPS games suffer.

 

Simulation is a tricky word. For a flight sim or race sim game, it's understood you will not get out of the vehicle - you're only focused on operating whatever vehicle you've chosen. In a military sim game, however, there are multiple types of vehicles, infantry movement, squads/teams, and AI. Thus, the term "sim" has to be taken with a grain of salt when these features are not fully immersive.

The die-hard "sim" guys seem to be caught in a contradiction. Often, they seem to rant about the virtues of playing on a team with an objective, not having one guy in a tank dominate the landscape, and how unrealistic not doing it their way is... But then they use 3rd person POV. This doesn't make sense to me, but I think we all know the type. They are usually the ones who are also crying, "go play BF/COD."

 

On the flip side, (I'm not saying that anyone is blatantly suggesting this) one-man large tank operation is crossing the line, even for a sim-arcade hybrid game. Incidentally, for all its faults the Battlefield series, esp. BF2, did blur the lines between arcade and sim. I can't say it fits into either category, but it has a lot of strong arguments for both. Having played other simulations or "sim" games, one could say the same about Arma. Anyhow, the fact remains that operating a tank by one's self is not consistent with the spirit of the game. If you're dominating with a tank because you have a good team with you, then good. But if you can't find at least one person to swap crew roles with you as move between encounters, then don't expect sympathy. You should recalculate your tactics to include something you can operate solo. Granted, this can be a frustrating paradox for the co-op players; I wish I had better advice for them. They definitely don't deserve to be harassed about wanting a solution.

 

In the US Army, training occasionally involves using a simulation video screen and converted weapons or vehicles to control your avatar with. EG, an airsoft M249 (which is actual M249 weight, feel, construction minus vital components) would be fitted with control sticks and some buttons for movement, or a desk would have the dash and wheel of a HMMWV and then a monitor. In such scenarios, the soldier experiences a simulation of the situation that he/she is training for, and there is even an AAR. It's practice. It's very stiff and bland, but the use of real equipment as controls, and how everybody reacted to the series of events, were pretty much the simulation. That's good for staying focused on the training objective. In BF2, the scenarios aren't as specific, but at least there are shadows in the environment and moving parts on the virtual vehicles. Being more immersive doesn't mean good simulation, but being a good simulation isn't enough to cut the mustard. Arma 3 may be a simulation military game, but it's still a game. Have fun, and loosen up.

[lexx 1331]

While we are gravedigging this thread... Giving commands to the driver seems only "lagging behind", because the player always has to say the commands first. E.g. if you want the driver to go left, you press the left key, then the player says "go left", THEN the driver moves. Now I am wondering... What happens if we replace the specific voice files with 0s blank files? The sentence is still said, but should be finished much quicker, therefore - in theory - allowing the vehicle to be controlled with less lag.

[scotg 204]

two things about that:
1. What if the lag isn't depending on the completion of the audio file. Maybe it depends on a given scripted value.

2. There should still remain some amount of lag for authenticity. A real driver wouldn't usually start moving the very instant the commander gave the command, though he might start moving in mid-command if they were like-minded and the commander takes a long time to spit out his words. Likely though, he'll have to take a second or two to process what he heard through all the machine noise inside the tank and headset before he moves.

 

My main agreement with this thread is the problems with how an AI drives a tank or operates its turret. Driver lag isn't as big of a deal to me.

[Vasily.B 529]

While we are gravedigging this thread... Giving commands to the driver seems only "lagging behind", because the player always has to say the commands first. E.g. if you want the driver to go left, you press the left key, then the player says "go left", THEN the driver moves. Now I am wondering... What happens if we replace the specific voice files with 0s blank files? The sentence is still said, but should be finished much quicker, therefore - in theory - allowing the vehicle to be controlled with less lag.

ace_noradio.pbo :)

Problem is Ai cannot drive straight forward, their behavior stay unchanged after threat detection, and they slowing down near any obstacle.

[R0adki11 3945]

Closing - please don't dig up old threads

 

 

 

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