Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[teabagginpeople 398]

Is there any chance you can make running with your gun down use up slightly less stamina. It has been mentioned before. Seems only natural having your rifle relaxed would use less energy. Not to mention it has a tactical aspect. Ie a trade off between being on full combat ready alert or conservation of energy.

Note I have not done any highly detailed tests so maybe you have I just didn't notice it while testing looking at the indicator.

Is only something small but brings another depth to the feature. I can't see this being relative to impacting ai performance but perhaps I'm wrong.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Is there any chance you can make running with your gun down use up slightly less stamina. It has been mentioned before. Seems only natural having your rifle relaxed would use less energy. Not to mention it has a tactical aspect. Ie a trade off between being on full combat ready alert or conservation of energy.

Note I have not done any highly detailed tests so maybe you have I just didn't notice it while testing looking at the indicator.

Is only something small but brings another depth to the feature. I can't see this being relative to impacting ai performance but perhaps I'm wrong.

Yes I'd really like to get this back. It does not feel natural to me, it also act as safety so when you've weapon down and click fire, it only rises the weapon. I know I'm not the only one missing it because my friend almost shot me because of this :D

[Varanon 892]

I've got the chance now to play with the new stamina system for some time, and I have to say that I still don't get why it was introduced.

 

Bohemia, what you basically did was to completely cut out a working system that had a real (good) impact on gameplay, and replaced it by something that has NO EFFECT ON GAMEPLAY whatsoever.

 

Yes, no effect. Yeah, you can sprint for as long as your stamina allows. Big deal. Sprinting is short term, anyway, and the fact that I can only sprint until the bar is down has no meaningful impact. We're back at zero, where the loadout that you carry along has no impact at all on gameplay.

 

This decision was, in my humble but well informed opinion, the worst decision ever made in the whole development of Arma 3. Not only must it have consumed resources that would have been better spent elsewhere, it also removed a meaningful element of the game and replaced it with... well, with nothing at all. Because that's what the impact of the stamina system is: NONE.

With the removal came a totally overdone weapon sway that does not seem to be related to your stamina in any way and appears to be totally arbitrary. So much for transparency.

 

Before you start screaming at me that there is a legacy fatigue mod: Yes, there is. I invite you to try it and notice the bugs for yourself. Walk up a staircase, and you are at 100 % fatigue when you're the first flat. Lie down, deploy your weapon, and sometimes, you're suddenly at 100 % fatigue. There's a ton of unexplainable jumps to 100 % fatigue, situations where fatigue never goes down again, and so on.

 

And before you start screaming at me and tell me that the mod is open source, and I could fix the bugs myself: We already did fix a few things, did report them, and they were fixed, but in the end, we simply gave up. And on top of all, it is not MY job to fix a system that should be in the base game in the first place.

 

Honestly, I don't understand the reasoning, why was the working system removed (yeah, I know, transparency issues) and replaced by something without impact that is, at least regarding weapon sway, totally not transparent. Even a fancy stamina bar does not help.

 

I know, this rant will not bring the old system back, or change anything in terms of the current system. But honestly, I needed to get this off my chest. How a game that claims to be an authentic (since realistic has become a bad word) combined arms experience with an infantry focus can be downgraded in such a way is totally beyond my comprehension.

[grumpy808 21]

How else will Arma become the next big eSport, the old stamina system had to go! ;)

 

Hopefully the addition of analytics proves to BI that no one likes the new system. If players love it then show us the data. Okay the data won't show love/hate, but they should show if it's accomplishing the stated goals.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

small bug - 1.56 stable build

 

standing upright jogging (weapon lowered) while holding [W] + [A] allows regeneration of stamina.

 

one of the new anims

[KoalaDSK 122]

small bug - 1.56 stable build

 

standing upright jogging (weapon lowered) while holding [W] + [A] allows regeneration of stamina.

 

one of the new anims

Hello,

this is a known bug since the development release of the new stamina system.

There might be a fix soonâ„¢

Best regards

[K20017 36]

The weapon sway from fatigue is ridiculous.  Even though it was fixed slightly in one of those patches, it still doesn't make sense.  It is way over exaggerated and the circular patch it seems to follow is not at all what you'd see in real life anyways.  The part that gets me is there is still weapon sway even when using a bipod!!  

[old_painless 182]

Are you sure you are resting against something ? My experience has been that it is quite stable if rested, and even better when bipod deployed. 

[Infinite_Rage_88 0]

I know this post is redundant at this point and is pretty much a necro post. I am new to Arma 3 as I have recently became a PC gamer.

 

This fatigue/weapon sway system still needs work. We take the roll of a trained soldier who has vast experience with dealing with fatigue and have trained with their weapon systems.

 

The amount of weapon sway is absolutely over exaggerated and needs to be toned down. I understand after a full sprint you are going to be breathing heavy and your aim may be stressed, but not to the point you have it.

 

Soldiers train stress drills for this reason. I understand some weapon sway while shooting off hand, but not as much as you have in game. This trained soldier cant barely climb an incline without running out of "stamina".

 

I only ask you portray the fatigue and weapon handling of this trained and seasoned soldier as realistic as possible.

[killzone_kid 1326]

There are lots of commands to play with https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:Command_Group:_Stamina_System also it could be different from mod to mod as these things are configurable

[martin_lee 33]

Regarding the weapon sway, it can be somewhat of an acquired taste with some familiarisation needed. I don't know what are the general consensus about the sway, but I am reasonably okay with it, in that I can send bullets where I want.

 

The short version is that the sway is really regular, you can spend relatively short period of time to practice and get really good at countering it. I can hit a man-sized target at 500 m, standing unsupported reasonably well. Which, from what I heard, is something quite hard to do in real life. (some instruction at the bottom on how to learn to counter the sway)

 

Notice that I have no experience with real guns, only airsoft guns (and camera with big zoom lens). When I aim, I don't sway like any video games depiction. What I have is better described as 'twitches'. You can stay generally on target, but occasionally your aim jumps a bit here and there. The thing is that you can kind of 'know' those twitches, you sort of  have a (really rough) feeling of when and where the twitches are going to come. You can kind of know the next few moments if you are steady or not.

 

It is a bit hard to put it to words, but let's just say that the twitches make sense to you at that moment. If you take video of it (without image stabilisation), and take a look later, it is just random, dizziness-inducing camera shake. Think about taking video of your pet or kids playing in the park, chasing after them. You know what's happening in front of you at that moment, but when you look back at the video at the end of the day, it would look more like storming the Normandy Beach.

 

What you can summarise from this experience is that:

1. You can stay generally on target

2. Some slight shifts of the aim around the target

3. The shifts are somewhat predictable, something you can get a feel of

 

So, what I look for in game mechanism is whether it can achieve an abstraction of the above three points. Visually-speaking (Point 1 and 2), the twitch I have is more similar to a mix between Arma 2 and Sniper Elite 1. But Point 3 is where they somewhat fall short. Arma 2's twitch is random and you can only hope that the next jump puts your aim on target, testing your reflex to see if you could click on time. Sniper Elite 1's twitch is quite good. It is episodic with a bit of calm in between, which while it is still random, you can catch that calm much easier (after every twitches is done the aim goes back to its original point).

 

It is extremely obvious that Arma 3's sway doesn't do Point 1 and 2, not without user input. While the sway is larger than most other video games, the sway pattern is fixed and can be learnt with a little bit of practice. And when you start to counter the sway, you could mostly eliminate the movement and stay mostly on target (Point 1). You will still need to 'chase the target' a little bit (somewhat a little bit of Point 2), but once you have some muscle memory on the sway pattern, you can sort of know how the sway is going to be, you could anticipate and adjust accordingly (Point 3).

 

In a rather unnatural twist, this sway can achieve the abstraction when you counter its movement. Precision shooting is no longer point-and-click, but requires practiced, deliberate movement.

 

When I play games I am playing make-believe, I look for abstractions that may reflect some real-life implications. This implementation, unnatural as it is, can fulfill the above three points that I look for. Even when I (as in the avatar) am fatigued, the sway became faster and larger, I can still fight to maintain my aim on target, I can still have some control on whether I can hit my target, rather than resigning to fate (chance) like Arma 2. When I (as in me) am stressed because of a jump scare by an unseen enemy at my flank, I can't hit him because I panicked and muscle memory of countering sway didn't kick in.

 

Like I said, it is a bit unnatural, but it can fulfill what I look for. To this day, I am still thinking if there are other mechanics that can do the same job, but in the end I got good enough that I can settle for it. [Sincerity mode, not being sarcastic or condescending] And if you don't like this implementation, you can always find a mod, because that is the beauty of Arma.

 

---

 

If you want to learn the sway, try it in the virtual armory. Load an MX with marksman optics (MOS, AMS, DMS etc), use the main optics (i.e. not the red dot), and try to learn the sway. Those optics have a higher zoom and you can learn the coarse movement first. No need to shoot for now, just keep the aim on the man at 50 m, then move on to 100 m. When you are familiar enough, try shooting at the man at 100 m, and onwards to 500 m. After that, move to optics like RCO, ARCO with lower zoom to learn to move more finely.

 

 

p.s. I am kind of curious if this is the intention of the dev or not...