Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[A. Lietuvis 13]

The biggest communities are Altis Life and KOTH in my opinion. The devs should first cater to these as a business plan, then ALLOW hardcore communities to turn it up a notch....not force it onto the rest of us. I paid for the game aswell but I am interested in different gamemodes than hardcore players, though I often will enjoy hardcore modes, I enjoy casual gamemodes like Altis Life all the much more.

 

But those communities only came in very late ArmA 2 - ArmA 3. They aren't reliable. They don't stay. They get distracted by another thing and they look for it - look what happened with DayZ standalone.

[twisted 127]

i like the new fatigue based on terrain slope even when jogging. but it causes fatigue going up and down. Surely going down a hill shouldn't consume stamina? Definitely open to correction here but it seems wrong as going down a hill doesn't take much energy really.

[A. Lietuvis 13]

In „OPREP core mechanics refinement“ BiS said this:

 

So people could not figure out how fatigue works and because of this they could not strategize loadouts and movements that would be benefical fort hem. They became fatigued without knowing why, lost their ability to aim and (more annoying) their movement became slower. Naturally they did not like fatigue.

Important: The root cause is „could not figure out how fatigue works“.

 

So how to fix this? RiE kindly provided us the design goals fort he new stamina system:

 

 

So how do we get there? Here’s my suggestion:

 

1. Keep the mechanics from fatigue

   I know this is not what you want to read, but bear with me please! Fatigue achieves design goals 1 to 4, so it should be easier to work with this than to start from scratch (or use "industry standard" as a base wich only acieves design goal 5 while falling flat on its face for goals 1 to 4). Also the root cause is „could not figure out how fatigue works“, so we only need to fix this (design goal 5). „Fatigue is too complicated“ you might think and yes, learning all the many things it does in detail might be asked too much - at least for beginners. But the thing is: People do not need to know every single mechanism in the system to be able to use it in a fun way! If they get the general concept* of it, it’s good enough to have fun. Heck it’s probably enough for most of them to realize that it tries to mimik real life (like so many other systems of Arma) instead of just copy the industry-standard systems.

    

2. Have fatigue/stamina be a topic in the field manual

   Now I do realize that many oft he people who find fatigue to be not transparent enough are also people who do not read the field manual. But it is still important to have a place where they can (be pointed to to) find more information about the system, therefor I mention it here. (Note: It is allready a topic in Field Manual>Tactical Guide>A06 Fatigue and Stamina - maybe it should become its own topic and be somewhat expanded)

    

3. Changes to the Inventory Bar

   In most games your inventory meter (be it a bar or a numerical value) simply states your maximum load you can carry. It’s usually a binary system: Either you are within your limits (up to full bar) and receive no penalty, or you are above your limit and receive maximum penalty (i.e. can only move painfully slow or not at all). Some games simply render you unable to pick up things if it would bring you above your limits. That’s probably what a lot of players assume the bar to be in Arma. We need them to notice that it works different.

   So we need a way to indicate to the player that they should consider loading less than full. A text prompt on the Inventory Bar itself stating „light load“ (at up to 25% load), „medium load“ (25-50%), „heavy load“ (50-75%) and „verry heavy load!“ (75-100%) would probably go a long way: It would signal that there is more going on than just filling a bar to its maximum. Players know the concept of light, meduim and heavy classes from other games and could probably conclude that a light load means less firepower/protection but more mobility and vice versa.

    

4. Add the Stamina Bar

   This is arguably the main thing missing. I personally like the breathing noise indicator, but i allready understand how fatigue works. Most players not familliar with Arma3 however are used to the industry standard: Character is able to run/jump/stunt indefinitely without penalty no mather the loadout and has a (limited) ability to sprint. However thats not how it should be in Arma3**. To learn that they loose stamina/gain fatigue off of other actions than sprinting, players need to get feedback direct feedback. The stamina bar does this in a way players are used to from other games: a bar depleting (and changing colour for additional clarity).

   When the bar moves there are little chevrons indicating if it’s going up or down. These could be futher improoved: The number of chevrons could go up for fast drain/regeneration and down for slow drain/regeneration. This would help players getting a feeling wich actions cost more or less stamina.

    

5. Make the AI lower their weapons in aware state

   AI set on aware should lower their weapons during movement to save stamina. This would help scenario creators and players controlling AI teams.

 

*: The heavier your load, the more exhausting your movement the more fatigued you get. Fatigue gradually affects your aim and ability to move quickly.

**: As I pointed out earlyer as long as stamina is only affected by sprinting, it becomes almost non relevant. Medium to high loadouts will be viable in most if not all circumstances (fail on Goal 1 and 4). Sprint will only be used when one's plan goes wrong (failing goal 2 and in combination with failing 1 and 4 it will also fail on goal 3).

 

This is probably the most right thing to do. The problem is not with the Fatigue system being overcomplicated, it's all about not communicating properly. Add an ACE 3 style weight indicator and a shacktac style stamina bar and you're set.

[A. Lietuvis 13]

Isn't the old system 10x more casual then this new stamina system? Seems this new update restrict just about everything

 

The new update is basically step by step recreating the old system. Ow stamina draining while jogging and increase in it when going on bad terrain? Wait a second, that's what the old system did too!

[CaptainObvious 95]

i like the new fatigue based on terrain slope even when jogging. but it causes fatigue going up and down. Surely going down a hill shouldn't consume stamina? Definitely open to correction here but it seems wrong as going down a hill doesn't take much energy really.

 

A slight downhill shouldn't consume stamina, but the steeper the decline, the harder it gets, I go backpacking and it's surprisingly hard to go down a hill.

[froggyluv 2130]

 Downhill running doesnt seem to tax the wind as much but does pose a much greater risk for injury -especially if carrying heavy load - as its much harder for the body to adjust to those sharp angles with gravity having its way. Ive run a bunch of mountain races out in Colorado and definitely use the downhills to catch people but again its a tradeoff for shin splints, ankle and knee problems. How that translates to a military game....no clue :p

[Roach_ 52]

Isn't the old system 10x more casual then this new stamina system? Seems this new update restrict just about everything

 

lol.

[iratus 71]

Tweaked: Exhaustion is now significantly affected by the terrain gradient once again. Whenever the terrain slope becomes steep, the terrain icon pops up, sprint will be disabled and running / jogging will become exhaustive while walking will not be restorative.

 

 

This is a step in the right direction. I will give it a go on the weekend playing some missions I'm familliar with.

[eriktrak 76]

I would love to see the simulation of adrenaline rush. It would automatically gives you extra stamina for a short period of time in case enemy shooting at you or explosion happens.

 

You would get extra 4-5 seconds to escape from a life thretening situation but it would reload slowly (like 1 minute).

[Kryptongame 14]

I would love to see the simulation of adrenaline rush. It would automatically gives you extra stamina for a short period of time in case enemy shooting at you or explosion happens.

 

You would get extra 4-5 seconds to escape from a life thretening situation but it would reload slowly (like 1 minute).

Thing is that adrenaline would last so much longer than 4-5 seconds.

[twisted 127]

Thing is that adrenaline would last so much longer than 4-5 seconds.

yeah and it'd seriously pump up your weapon sway.

 

actually beyond the initial rush as you try to calm down.

[CaptainObvious 95]

yeah and it'd seriously pump up your weapon sway.

 

actually beyond the initial rush as you try to calm down.

 

Yep, and not just sway but nasty shaking as well.

[froggyluv 2130]

 Guys we've been down this adrenaline discussion many times -all people handle it differently as we are all a different bag of chemicals. Some cant metabolize the flood of NT's and hormones and freeze/shake while others become extremely accurate and heightened. Its not something we can recreate for a video game.

[Greenfist 1863]

 Guys we've been down this adrenaline discussion many times -all people handle it differently as we are all a different bag of chemicals. Some cant metabolize the flood of NT's and hormones and freeze/shake while others become extremely accurate and heightened. Its not something we can recreate for a video game.

Well, some soldiers can't jog 24/7 for 5 years, but we still recreated that for a video game. ;)

[twisted 127]

well the general effect is of increased inaccuracy at anything but pretty darn close distances - except for a very narrow subset of leet humans whom i have never personally met. but no one is saying sniper level accuracy when running and dodging bullets now are we? bipods and weapon resting should mitigate the effect.

 

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/expphysiol.2009.047555/full

[Varanon 892]

Reading about special actions with associated cooldown times, I ask myself are we talking about Arma here, or World of Warcraft ?

[eriktrak 76]

Adrenaline rush would give you a last chance to survive. Quick decision have to make: run or kill the target.

 

Question if is it easy to decide when to activate? What factors has to be counted? For example: how close the bullets land, character health level, size of explosion, even a tank rolling next to you etc.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Reading about special actions with associated cooldown times, I ask myself are we talking about Arma here, or World of Warcraft ?

 

You can't be a real, true SF dude if you don't know when is the best time to pop Sprint + Prep + Sprint in combat to get away from danger like standing in secondaries. Maybe agility should affect duration of the sprint so it scales better with gear, and you can get more sprint if you pop/proc your agility trinkets. Would be nice too for start of combat when you prepot your agility potion so you can get to the combat zone faster on pull. It's knowledge like this that makes or breaks a recruits application to a top 10 squad on ArmAprogress. Survival is important, keeping yourself alive is always more DPS than just dying mid-fight.

[iratus 71]

yeah and it'd seriously pump up your weapon sway.

 

actually beyond the initial rush as you try to calm down.

 

Later down the line Feedback Tracker would tell us that not a small portion of scenario designers, modders and admins think the system is not transparent enough.

 

;)

[mamasan8 11]

You can't be a real, true SF dude if you don't know when is the best time to pop Sprint + Prep + Sprint in combat to get away from danger like standing in secondaries. Maybe agility should affect duration of the sprint so it scales better with gear, and you can get more sprint if you pop/proc your agility trinkets. Would be nice too for start of combat when you prepot your agility potion so you can get to the combat zone faster on pull. It's knowledge like this that makes or breaks a recruits application to a top 10 squad on ArmAprogress. Survival is important, keeping yourself alive is always more DPS than just dying mid-fight.

And what about all those 20-man village raids? We need more of those, GIMME NOW!

The ones we have now are too easy. The village bosses don't even have special abilities.

And wheres the content for the solo guy? I want to snipe dudes and pick their backpacks clean, I need the gear. The RNG seems totally broken, soldiers always drop the same stuff.

Fix it.

The current end game is broken, this MMO will never last past 6 months, calling it now.

[danil-ch 165]

Another regression: Injuries don't affect your stamina at all.  :icon_sad:

[Kryptongame 14]

Another regression: Injuries don't affect your stamina at all.  :icon_sad:

This is good for me :)

[djotacon 190]

 Its not something we can recreate for a video game.

 

I think that some people dont have any ideas about video games:

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/stamina-bar/3015-3569/

 

But if you want a complete body chemical simulator I suggest that try to find one in a pro-medical software.

 

I dont understand very well all this rage against a feature that barely uses someone  - speaking about the players that usually playing using a mod -.

 

There's a new powerfull feature bring more playability and deeper gameplay bring speed, and more action to this game.

 

To me is - and a lot of more people - this will be a great  new feature.

[teabagginpeople 398]

Another regression: Injuries don't affect your stamina at all.  :icon_sad:

  

This is good for me :)

Krypton from everything you say I can only gather you're really piss poor at arma and get shot alot. You basically don't want any stamina penalty so you can run away with your tail between your legs as you fast as you can.

I believe you need a special game setting introduced were you can knock off stamina , bullet drop, and basically any skill requirements. Perhaps add in a stand against a wall to regain your health type gig.

The vision you have for this stamina is an off switch.

[Alwarren 2765]

This is good for me :)

Yeah I figured already. What you want is

Player enableFatigue false;

Send from my tablet, so pardon any autocorrect bollocks