Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[bad benson 1733]

Maybe introduce animation slow downs different way this time. The more you carry, the slower animations. So 100% loaded player moves like 100% fatigued in the old system, just for example. I also liked the slow down feature but some people disagree heavily. That way the weight should matter a lot again. Then the only problem is the environmental penalties like moving uphill because they don't exist.

 

i agree. anim slow down might be a little ugly in some cases but it's a great way of handling it. it could be made less extreme to keep it visually pleasing (didn't find it too bad besides for my own climbing animations...made them floaty) and be combinated with other penalties. that would also solve the problem of having one smoke grenade deciding between two extreme states. please consider keeping this. it can always be refined by adding some transition anims later.

[-Coulum- 35]

The changes are better, especially sway. Still alot lacking, especially on making loadout, terrain, stance and movement speed actually factor in tandem. I gave up on suggesting mechanics in this thread a while ago... fuck it
 
Way I see it, stamina system represents anaerobic ability - sprinting, heavy lifting, climbing etc....

As such this should be reflected in game by having all anaerobic activity (not just sprinting) eat away at stamina. What is and isn't anaerobic? depends combo of:

• Movement Speed
• Encumbrance
• Stance
• Terrain

Basically these four would act as multipliers. Multiply bigger than a certain threshold and the combo is Anaerobic:
 

Stamina loss/gain rate = Aerobic limit - (Movement speed multiplier x Stance multiplier x Encumbrance multiplier x Terrain multiplier) 

 

Where Aerobic limit is equal for all players, and determines when an action becomes anaerobic. If the result of this equation is positive you regenerate stamina. If it is Negative you loose. Around zero it just stays the same. Simple. But very dynamic. 

EDIT: Almost forgot. Health should be another multiplier. Want to really make people think twice about what they carry? Make weapon weight have a low weight multiplier.
 
Low and behold this is similar to fatigue. Difference is it was never possible to change a degenerative action to regenerative ie. jogging with little gear - increases stamina, jogging with lots of gear - decreases stamina. Above makes it possible. Contrasts the current system where all four of these factors are either: isolated from each other (movement speed and encumbrance), or have absolutely no effect anymore (stance, terrain)

CLIFFNOTES - Make it possible for any action to be fatiguing, resting or neutral based on encumbrance, stance and terrain. Not just movement speed (now).
RESULT - Jogging (or other actions) may rest or tire you based on what you are carrying, stance and terrain.
 
On "Encumbrance = Stamina bar size"
Stamina bar size determined by encumbrance is silly. Find it odd that after I exhaust myself all I have to do is drop a vest and boom, I have more stamina. Firefight goes on, I expend ammo and gain energy :huh: . Not how it should work. Fitness determines how much stamina a person has. Encumbrance factors into how fast the stamina is depleted. Everyone should have equal stamina. Regeneration/loss should be situational. May not be as "transparent". Make it more so by using...

• Arrows in the stamina bar (as is done now)
• Rate of Fatigue bar 
• Color of the stamina bar (red to green) 

...to indicate how much the current combo of actions is fatiguing you. 
 
IMO Transparency means making better indicators for the player, not simplifying mechanics so they are easier to understand. The way encumbrance determines stamina is a simplification of mechanics. 
 
I'm not sure how much room devs have to work and how much the current system can be bent. But I think it is essential the 4 factors blend to produce rates of stamina loss/regeneration. Basing it on speed alone is far too simple to be interesting.
Also, devs, What is your stance on the slomo animations? Did you decide they didn't meet quality standards? Is that one of the reasons for the "stamina revamp"?

[machineabuse 11]

Optic view should consume stamina (muscle fatigue) on stand up position a little bid less on crouch and none on prone.

Again, there is no physical difference in what your character is actually doing between optic view and standing with the weapon up. If optic view consumes stamina than having the weapon raised at all should also consume stamina.

[Varanon 892]

On the other hand, I feel like the increased sway feels unnatural and adds alot of frustation to the game, but that's probably because sway is unrealistic anyway, in reality it's more shaking instead of swaying. Best example for that is photography, you won't sway with a camera, even a heavy one, but you will shake.

Agreed. I personally preferred the erratic gun movement in Arma II since it was unpredictable and just felt more real.

[ppitm 43]

Agreed. I personally preferred the erratic gun movement in Arma II since it was unpredictable and just felt more real.

Man, you have just expressed a wholly original thought, never shared by any other member of humanity before. 

 

It's what many artists and writers spend their whole lives striving towards. Congratulations.  :lol:

 

(Seriously, for years the consensus around here was that sway should be a predictable figure-8 that mimics breathing.)

[twisted 127]

i agree. anim slow down might be a little ugly in some cases but it's a great way of handling it. it could be made less extreme to keep it visually pleasing (didn't find it too bad besides for my own climbing animations...made them floaty) and be combinated with other penalties. that would also solve the problem of having one smoke grenade deciding between two extreme states. please consider keeping this. it can always be refined by adding some transition anims later.

hear you as it does play an important  role in stamina. but personally i hated the slow run almost as much as being forced to walk super slow when wounded.

 

because they were bandaids that emphasized how patchy the solution was.

 

Rather have a solution that is truer to the principles that RIE expounded on like and more like they way humans actually acted when they were tired and running.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Man, you have just expressed a wholly original thought, never shared by any other member of humanity before. 

 

It's what many artists and writers spend their whole lives striving towards. Congratulations.  :lol:

 

(Seriously, for years the consensus around here was that sway should be a predictable figure-8 that mimics breathing.)

 

 

When there's only one kind of sway, it can't properly represent both the normal rested sway, and the sway you get from exhausting yourself.

@-coulum-, awesome post!

[machineabuse 11]

Man, you have just expressed a wholly original thought, never shared by any other member of humanity before. 

 

It's what many artists and writers spend their whole lives striving towards. Congratulations.  :lol:

 

(Seriously, for years the consensus around here was that sway should be a predictable figure-8 that mimics breathing.)

I wrote about the unauthenticity of sway and the mechanisms of realistic muzzle movement in detail months ago*. I suspect I wasn't the first to think of it and I doubt I will be the last for long to come.

*Actually last year in the Weapon Inertia thread.

[stormhawkv 19]

Now that the overall weight a soldier can carry has been reduced, it's even more important to give weapons their realistic weights or at least eliminate excessive discrepancies.

[roshnak 41]

heavy loadouts should decrease player [...] rotation

 

Please no.

[roberthammer 582]

Please no.

To be honest that's the only good way to nerf those heavy guns and loadouts tho ...

[Alwarren 2765]

To be honest that's the only good way to nerf those heavy guns tho ...

 

For CQB, I think sooner or later the game needs weapon collision. Otherwise, it will never be a fair or realistic fight.

[ruPal 143]

Stamina should show overall fatigue (not only sprint but jogging too). Just implement this and everyone will be happy. We will get really improved fatigue system. When everything but walking will affect stamina. Also you must be able to get overall fatigue of player for mods purposes.

[Roach_ 52]

To be honest that's the only good way to nerf those heavy guns and loadouts tho ...

Actually I was just trying out the SPMG and you can't really shoot it if you've just moved (doesn't matter if 5m or 1k) due to the massive sway.

[bad benson 1733]

isn't inertia there to balance weapon length and weight? barely paid attention to it tbh but i kinda thought that's why it got added.

 

 

hear you as it does play an important  role in stamina. but personally i hated the low run almost as much as being forced to walk super slow when wounded.

 

because they were bandaids that emphasized how patchy the solution was.

 

Rather have a solution that is truer to the principles that RIE expounded on like and more like they way humans actually acted when they were tired and running.

 

i agree that it would need to be tweaked and stuff so it feels more convincing but i gotta say that i always felt that speeds needed to be more dynamic when it comes to weight. and looking at those videos posted early, now more than ever. this just can't ever be not ridiculous if there is jsut two-threee anims to pick from. there would always be the presented smokegrenade effect.

 

to me it just makes much more sense to jog slower when i carry a lot of stuff rather than being forced into the same speed as a light unit and then being fatigued because i only had the option to run that fast. it's like your brain suddenly stops working because you carry too much and suddenly you lose sense of waht your body can do. it always seemed backwards to me.

 

it's just really hard or near impossible to make something dynamic without dynamic speeds imho. atleast when it comes to the weight aspect. a possible reason why it seemed so ridiculous at times is probably that it was linked to fatigue values with the result of it being way too pronounced at times. i'd love it to be implemented to a degree where it still looks and feels natural and not too much like slow motion and then let all other effects compensate too. so it's a nice mix of different effects that creates a subtle condition rather than just a switch based on a scale.

[R3vo 2652]

Actually I was just trying out the SPMG and you can't really shoot it if you've just moved (doesn't matter if 5m or 1k) due to the massive sway.

 

 

And that sway is a no go for me, it's ridiculous. The penality should be decreased mobility, not increased sway.

[roshnak 41]

 

To be honest that's the only good way to nerf those heavy guns and loadouts tho ...

 

Actually it's one of the worst ways to do it. It's not a good idea to mess with players' mouse control. It makes playing the game feel bad. There are plenty of good ways to balance heavy weapons against lighter ones, several of which have already been mentioned.

 

Dynamic speeds

 

How would this affect the ability of AI and players to move together in groups, though?

[roberthammer 582]

Actually it's one of the worst ways to do it. It's not a good idea to mess with players' mouse control. It makes playing the game feel bad. There are plenty of good ways to balance heavy weapons against lighter ones, several of which have already been mentioned.

I know it's not the best but it's effective - also i doubt we will see a weapon collision system in A3 which would help a lot

 

weapon like SPMG from realistic standpoint - you wouldn't be able to hit anything with it , unless you use a bipod/rest weapon or in the prone position

[Roach_ 52]

And that sway is a no go for me, it's ridiculous. The penality should be decreased mobility, not increased sway.

I agree about the sway, but as roshnak just said, decreased mobility interferes with mouse sensitivity, which might feel awkward. Unless that with mobility you meant walking/jogging speed, but then the AI would again not be able to move in groups and fall behind.

[fareast 20]

And that sway is a no go for me, it's ridiculous. The penality should be decreased mobility, not increased sway.

 

increased sway should be one of the penalties. we just need weapon collision which idk why BI refuse to implement(AI issue?). My ultimate CQB weapon right now is the silenced navid..moving and shooting through tight areas with 1.5m long weapon like an absolute boss

[-Coulum- 35]

Actually I was just trying out the SPMG and you can't really shoot it if you've just moved (doesn't matter if 5m or 1k) due to the massive sway.

Well first off, lets get it straight. You can shoot. Even effectively, after moving with the SPMG. Yes it is harder...

 

Sprinting 10 metres, engaging at 50.

 

But that is good! One positive out of this stamina business its that heavy weapons have been given a needed movement penalty. Sprinting with the SPMG and instantly trying to engage is more difficult. Way it should be. The gun is a beast and very heavy from what I gather. Sprinting with it and then raising it, shouldering it and firing it with accuracy is not going to happen with great speed. Finally this is actually true ingame. In contrast, using a SMG is opposite. Good job to the devs on that. 

 

There is room for improvement. The magnitude of sway is good I believe. But the duration - I think it lasts too long at high intensity. After moving sway should drastically decrease in the first half a dozen seconds. And then slowly drop for the remainder of the recovery time. This represents:

 

• Quick, broad stabilizing of the body and gun from swinging around to shouldered and aiming - weapon handling
• Slower, finer recover as one calms breathing, muscles etc. from the movement they were doing - fatigue

 

End result would be... lets say for a rifleman - jog 50 metres, stop, aim. 2 or so seconds of high sway that rapidly dissipates. 20 or so seconds of low sway which slowly dissipates. Exact times subject to change. What do you guys think? I can't imagine it would be that big a change. Change the accuracy regeneration from linear to backwards exponential (I am sure there is a proper term for that). Easy Peasy!......     .... :(

 

Again I'd like to repeat:

Speed/Movement, Encumbrance, Terrain, Stance and Wounds need to somehow combine to determine if stamina is lost, gained or stays neutral during any action. Not just the type of movement should determine if something eats stamina, as is now.

[A. Lietuvis 13]

I find the suggestions how animations should get slower on less stamina, and how inclines should affect stamina, and how jogging should affect it. Why?

Simple. That was the old system. It was exatly that - movement, accuracy and animation speed affected by stance, amount movement, terrain and loadout. Heavy loudouts moved less and had to focus more on setting up bases of fire, charging at the enemy would leave you barely able to stand. Meanwhile lighter loadouts were perfect skirmishers - moving around alot, excellent for urban combat.

The old system was working perfectly fine, sans a bloody stamina bar. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

But looks like BI is hard-headed to try and fix what ain't broke (and what they worked on alot clearly, since development of fatigue begun in Alpha and was steadily polished!) in what feels a bit of a lazy and arcady way.

 

All we can ask at this point is that we would be able to switch to the old system, and not via a mod that every bloody guy who joins the server has to use, but by a simple parameters in the difficulty settings. That would leave both tactical veterans that make up the loyal fanbase and the arcadey new Altis Lifes and Wastelanders happy.

 

 

Again I'd like to repeat:

Speed/Movement, Encumbrance, Terrain, Stance and Wounds need to somehow combine to determine if stamina is lost, gained or stays neutral during any action. Not just the type of movement should determine if something eats stamina, as is now.

 

You just described the old system - true in places it was a bit harsh (cmon let me crawl), but that was the old system. Wounds affected fatigue. Load affected fatigue. Stance affected fatigue. Terrain affected fatigue. And fatigue affected movement and accuracy. You feel like you can't aim at anything after hiking up a hill with a MMG? That's why the bipod is on your gun, friend. Feel too slow while carrying that HAT? Give a rocket to carry to the lighter rifleman next to you. The old system was fine, just needed fine-tuning. Not a lazy and arcadey redesign.

[Roach_ 52]

Well first off, lets get it straight. You can shoot. Even effectively, after moving with the SPMG. Yes it is harder...

 

Sprinting 10 metres, engaging at 50.

Huh, that's weird. That's 0 sway comparing to what I got. And I didn't even sprint.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Fixed: Set correct stamina values for movement without weapon, swimming and movement with binoculars

Has the magical, put you weapon in your backpack to free your hands or take binocs, so you consume less fatigue/stamina, been fixed finally?

Maybe if BIS puts couple of months testing and really makes big changes in the stamina system so it even gets close to the old fatigue this system could be nice. But that of course raises a question was it worth it to do everything again on the different base. The new system is a fail in my book so long if it doesn't almost force you to walk or stop if you push too far. That's how the old system was, only the fatigue gain and recovery were bit too sharp or short and the weight curve should've been more logaritmic.

Maybe we will hear more about this stamina next week if their aim has changed. They must have had some talking and meeting after this huge amount of feedback in this topic and I hope they will make this system more authentic like the fatigue was.

[mahuja 12]

Wrt capping the players turning speed relative to his weight - in arma 2 bi did exactly that, but dependent on active weapon rather than total player weight.

(Because let's face it, vanilla arma2 didn't have a concept of weight.)

So if you held a MAAWS/Javelin you'd need around 5-6 seconds to turn full circle.

Why was it removed? Probably because some people couldn't tell the difference between that and (negative) mouse acceleration.

Some quite vocal people. Shouldn't be hard to find their videos.

That's why you can, in arma3, spin in place at rates probably well over 100 rpm. Or at least could, I haven't tested recently.