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Personally, I think that this new system should be somewhat layered over the old one. Sprinting would absolutely kill your endurance after a 25-75m and certain kits could completely eliminate it. Jogging would reduce your endurance for an overloaded character, but only stagnate your fatigue with medium and light loads. Walking or sitting still would regenerate fatigue. Anyone who used ST stamina bar knew how to cope with the old system. And I feel like this new system is only an improvement if it becomes an optional layer over the old.

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I'm afraid the new stamina system bothers me, like many others posting here.

 

I play arma because it accounts for things like getting tired when running, not sprinting, with heavy equipment. I appreciate the tactical dimension that features like this add to the game. It always made much more sense to me this way than being able to run indefinitly like in other shooters.

 

I get that many servers and missions do not make use of this feature because it slows the game down. I also generally avoid those servers/missions because it removes something from the game, it makes it feel somewhat shallow.

 

So bottom line is, yeah, I see that there are people who did not like the fatigue system as it was, but there are also enough players who do not share that opinion. If you feel you have to cater to players who prefer easier/faster play style it would be great if you could also make sure to maintain a good gameplay experience for players who prefer a different style. And making it more configureable via scripting is great, but not if that becomes mandatory if you want to have a more realistic response to running with heavy gear.

 

Hope you will take all the feedback here into consideration

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this suggestion my electricLeash would help a lot with the new system. im fine with most other aspects, but the ability to keep on going forever isnt cool.

 

 

and slow it down, crouch sprint is only 1kmh slower than proper full sprint. and crouch sprint should make fatigue go down far faster.

 

 

I hope to have a revert, however if the final decision has been made and we are stuck with the new system then there is one key thing that needs to happen:

 

Jogging should absolutely NOT regain stamina.

 

It should either have the player continue to lose stamina at a slower rate or at the very least pause the stamina loss/gain like the tactical pace.

The player must have to stop or at least move at a walk to regain stamina again.

 

Cater to the Arma 3 crowd BIS, aka the 2 million people who bought your game for what it is not for those hoping to have another COD clone.

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i didnt like the old system, because i don't like it if my virtual avatar is less fit then i am...

why did many missions disable fatigue i guess? Cause having to walk is boring and stretching the "travel on foot" part unnecessarily long if you want to keep somebody entertained. Constantly having your avatar near black out hearing his death rattle all the time is irritating and after some point just annoying.

 

Imo there should be 2 different  sets of fatigue.

"Low intensity fatigue" - This raises slowly when you jog, crawl, etc over longer distances (influenced by weight of course). If you stop it slowly decreases. It influences accuracy/ weaponsway, but the impact is fairly small compared to the next one

"High intensity fatigue" - This increases quickly whenever you do something particulary exhausting, like sprinting, fast crawling, running up a hill for example. It influences accuracy /weaponsway very significantly. The level decreases whenever you do not do any of those activities (so even when you jog), but only slowly unless you stop and rest. If you are maximally fatigued from high intensity you can only continue with low intensity activities and your accuracy is all over the place

Both effects should overlay.

 

This represents actual physique a bit better - because you can jog or march fast for a longer time. You can do a sprint from this jog/ fast march. When you can't sprint anymore you can still jog. When you are exhausted from sprint you can jog again to recover from this high intensity activity. That's what you do in interval training all the time - recovering from high intensity activities while doing some medium intensity activies until you are ready to do high intensity again.

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Honestly, if possible, I'd have combined stamina and fatigue together.

 

Even though I hated it, I'm really going to miss fatigue. :(

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i didnt like the old system, because i don't like it if my virtual avatar is less fit then i am...

why did many missions disable fatigue i guess? Cause having to walk is boring and stretching the "travel on foot" part unnecessarily long if you want to keep somebody entertained. Constantly having your avatar near black out hearing his death rattle all the time is irritating and after some point just annoying.

 

Imo there should be 2 different  sets of fatigue.

"Low intensity fatigue" - This raises slowly when you jog, crawl, etc over longer distances (influenced by weight of course). If you stop it slowly decreases. It influences accuracy/ weaponsway, but the impact is fairly small compared to the next one

"High intensity fatigue" - This increases quickly whenever you do something particulary exhausting, like sprinting, fast crawling, running up a hill for example. It influences accuracy /weaponsway very significantly. The level decreases whenever you do not do any of those activities (so even when you jog), but only slowly unless you stop and rest. 

Both effects should overlay.

 

This represents actual physique a bit better - because you can jog or march fast for a longer time. You can do a sprint from this jog/ fast march. When you can't sprint anymore you can still jog. When you are exhausted from sprint you can jog again to recover from this high intensity activity. That's what you do in interval training all the time - recovering from high intensity activities while doing some medium intensity activies until you are ready to do high intensity again.

 

this is exactly how i see it and to me that is the biggest flaw of the old system. you simply can't simulate long term travelling fatigue and exhaustion from sprinting with just one single value. it's nonsense and the reason why, to me personally (!!!), the old system had many frustrating moments that made no sense to me. like not even talking about about sway in general. was not saying "why am i exhausted that much at all...i just want to run and gun". it's the reasons why i was exhausted. and that is the most important thing to make a mechanic work and make it convincing and meaningful and not just "penalty by all means". thx. good on point post.

 

i really hope that the new control we will get will allow us to make maybe something even more complex and thus better than the old system.

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just another example to underline my post  - biathlon (on ski): The athletes run at high intensity on the track, but a couple of hundred meters before they reach the shooting range they will ease up slightly to recover on the go before arriving at the range, so they can hit their targets. It would take alot longer to slow down their heartrate/breathing if they went to the shooting range in full steam, and only then stopped. That's inefficient, since the body can only recover at a certain rate, even if you completely stop all activity. It's much better in to recover on the go.  They also run up a hill quicker if they know that there is a long flat section behind it, because they can recover on the long flat section from the hill.

 

Edit: It just took 70 pages to do the fatigue indicator i asked for right at the start of this thread, let's see how many pages it would take for a two-part fatigue system :D

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Be rid of slowed animations has been a great advance.

It's not. Slowed animations were a great visual feedback, now you can't really tell if other players are tired.

 

New system

 

+ You can't no longer sprint with a lot of gear.
 
- You can run forever  :wacko:
- You don't really need to rest 
- You can easily carry a HMG and Titan and don't give a shit about stamina
- No slowed animation (now i have zero awareness about other player's stamina) 

 

Profit? :banghead:

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the thing i'm worried about most currently (mostly lack of knowledge and hands on expereince of the new thing) is loss of the ability to control fatigue/stamina based on animation/movement type. is this going to survive the change in some form?

We tried to keep it in mind while developing the stamina - all the duty properties of animation states stay the same. That should handle the most time-consuming part of modding the game, You should have both the new and old values ready at hand to create any system You wish. Don't get me wrong, we haven't developed a system meant to be wrong and fixed by community, we still believe that stamina is a step forward, but it shouldn't be hard for anyone interested in a different system to adjust the game now. If You find lack of tools to do so, let us know, we may try to think about adding some more :icon_twisted:

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We tried to keep it in mind while developing the stamina - all the duty properties of animation states stay the same. That should handle the most time-consuming part of modding the game, You should have both the new and old values ready at hand to create any system You wish. Don't get me wrong, we haven't developed a system meant to be wrong and fixed by community, we still believe that stamina is a step forward, but it shouldn't be hard for anyone interested in a different system to adjust the game now. If You find lack of tools to do so, let us know, we may try to think about adding some more :icon_twisted:

 

Like i stated befor is there no way to preserve the old one aswell like the standard/advanced AFM? this could be an solution for both party's. as a standard the new stamina for people who don't like the more realistic part and as advanced setting the fatigue system for us Hardcore players?

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I hope you'll reconsider bringing the terrain angle back to the equation:

Climbing a steep slope should consume stamina, at least with extreme loadout weights. Like something heavier than the heaviest vanilla unit loadout. It wouldn't be confusing to even the most casual players. And AI wouldn't mind because no mission maker packs their AI with an MMG, a launcher, and 5 satchel charges.

 

And going uphill (maybe 20+ degrees) should disable stamina regeneration. Although, disabling it when merely jogging would be even better, but that's not gonna happen, right?

 

Why the fixed 45 second cooldown period? Why not make it depend on speed and stance? Again, this would not break the AI or Life players.

 

Is it intentional that the regeneration stops when you aim down the sights? I would understand if you held your breath, but even when just aiming while lying down with the gun on a bipod?

 

And please increase the low stamina sway.

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This just means that mod makers need to mod the stamina back in and then there's always a chance that you'll break something in it and it needs to be fixed again and all that. The vanilla stamina was very good in game modes like Tactical Battlefield. Mostly the loadouts there are around 25-35% and if you were some kind of an ammobearer then you feel that. It balances dam well, so high loadouts didn't use much sprinting but lighter actually can use it a lot when it's really needed and they can go for long distances (from object to object easily) without even thinking about stamina. Crouch running was used when needed but you always want to be standing up and running if it's possible. The system rewards the "move-observer-move" or "cover-to-cover" playstyles and it worked dam well in CQB. Naturally if you're fully packed with MMG and a launcher it's harder but still if you think it's manageable. You just need to think how much you actually carry with you and move that way and be ready that you can be outmanoeuvred by light troops. It even could make you conisider how much you really want that highest and the most heavy armour or do you want to play guerrilla. With the new system this all is scrapped from the vanilla game and mod makers need to bring that back again and worry if the mod breaks from some changes.

 

What part of the community you even want to please with the new changes? The ones who already have the fatigue disabled won't see any other difference than that they can run even more and the gameplay doesn't change actually at all. And other part of the community sees the change is like taking tire heating out of racing simulators and then you say "make your own" which is like a kick to the nuts.

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Or in case of players playing on public servers (example invade and annex) we play with vannila

content with minimal scripts running.With this change we will have currently fatigue system replaced with

watered down stamina system - affecting your sprint but nothing else.On said server I will have lesser experience,

and Why? I can already see people hauling as much as they can instead of current loaded Hunter with goodies which

in my opinion makes more sense then one men army hauler with titans and 5 rockets going anywhere he pleases.

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What part of the community you even want to please with the new changes? The ones who already have the fatigue disabled won't see any other difference than that they can run even more and the gameplay doesn't change actually at all. And other part of the community sees the change is like taking tire heating out of racing simulators and then you say "make your own" which is like a kick to the nuts.

 

Sprinting was a last resort movement speed in the previous system. Sprinting now is a "Nitro" button that recharges over a short amount of time. The aim is clear.

 

And they are absolutely right. It makes the game much pleasant to play because you no longer have to concern yourself with that system.

 

The campaign that was built before the fatigue system came into play is much more pleasant when the campaign designed without any concern for the fatigue is played without any concern for fatigue.

The majority of missions that were built for MANW that disable fatigue because they're designed with the fatigue off where you have to travel a quarter of Altis are pleasant to play because there is no fatigue.

Their end game mode that was designed even when fatigue was in play plays better because it actually wants to be one of the missions above which make fatigue irrelevant but it was too shy to turn it off.

It makes the organised private group missions more pleasant because you don't have to take time for breaks because of that one guy that carries everything and moves in crouched combat pace all the time.

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Sprinting was a last resort movement speed in the previous system. Sprinting now is a "Nitro" button that recharges over a short amount of time. The aim is clear.

 

And they are absolutely right. It makes the game much pleasant to play because you no longer have to concern yourself with that system.

 

The campaign that was built before the fatigue system came into play is much more pleasant when the campaign designed without any concern for the fatigue is played without any concern for fatigue.

The majority of missions that were built for MANW that disable fatigue because they're designed with the fatigue off where you have to travel a quarter of Altis are pleasant to play because there is no fatigue.

Their end game mode that was designed even when fatigue was in play plays better because it actually wants to be one of the missions above which make fatigue irrelevant but it was too shy to turn it off.

It makes the organised private group missions more pleasant because you don't have to take time for breaks because of that one guy that carries everything and moves in crouched combat pace all the time.

 

You have some good points. Maybe we should asks for script commands and not crying because of the new system. I like the current system, but if we are able to expand the new system into hardcore/realistic one, than it could be a module in ACE. Problem solved and everybody is happy.

 

P.s. Btw I'm unable to complete the firing ranges to gold. Maybe I'm retard, but i always get tired and if I'm lucky i can finish it with silver. Could anybody finish it with gold? 

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than it could be a module in ACE. Problem solved and everybody is happy.

 

 

 Not everybody uses ACE. Besides, wtf do the people who like a little more realism, the long term faithful have to be the ones to be expected to mod it in. Let the "Life'ers" mod it out.

 

 Or again, please just place this in Difficulty settings. This NEEDS to be inherent in the game and not a mod that we have to yet again, get on the same page when MP'ing...

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Besides, wtf do the people who like a little more realism, the long term faithful have to be the ones to be expected to mod it in. Let the "Life'ers" mod it out.

Exactly, these people play one mission anyway. I have 1300+ coop missions on the comrades in arms server, am I expected to edit every single one of them? I upload new coop missions to the server on a monthly basis, are my players expected to re-adapt in every mission to a different mod or script to the stamina system? This is exactly the opposite to the way it should be.
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really this initial release of Stamina has good and bad things. the good is more 'fun' and sprint is usable. the bad is 'arcadisation' of the game.

 

to correct it, as has been said by many:

 

no stamina recovery on jogging. needing to manage energy should be at least somewhat of a tactical consideration.

 

extreme weight should affect jogging somehow. otherwise everyone loads up with ALL the things.

 

angles of terrain must affect stamina depletion/replenishment more.

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Like i stated befor is there no way to preserve the old one aswell like the standard/advanced AFM? this could be an solution for both party's. as a standard the new stamina for people who don't like the more realistic part and as advanced setting the fatigue system for us Hardcore players?

 

If this is possible, I would definitely think it is the best way to go.  Standard for the new stamina system, advanced for the previous fatigue system.  Works great for the AFM and other difficulty based options (i.e. extended armor, crosshair, etc.)

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Let's take DayZ as an example, what's one of the biggest problems in it? You can run around Chernarus in no time so the world isn't immersive and it feels so small. You can always outrun zombies because they can't catch a running man so they're not a threat. Though even the current DayZ food/water and how much sprinting consumes your energy resources is more hardcore than what we have in dev branch. I don't know have you even understood how much you're watering down the vanilla Arma 3 experience, how much you're watering down all the tactics, how much you're making the islands to feel small and cities like villages and how a mountain became like a no obstacle.

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It makes the organised private group missions more pleasant because you don't have to take time for breaks because of that one guy that carries everything and moves in crouched combat pace all the time.

 

Being one of the organized private group players, I completely disagree. Having to stop every once in a while was good. Cresting a hill and going into combat was usually rewarded with being slaughtered. You had to take a breather before combat.

I don't play this game because it is "pleasant". If I want "pleasant" I play Dear Esther. I play this game for a semi-realistic military experience.

 

Really, please, can we have this as a difficulty/config option? Apparently, one system doesn't fit everyone, and there are a lot of people that want the old system back. Why do you have to force everyone to play like this just because some Arma Life servers want it? Can we just have a checkbox that lets us chose the system we prefer, just like with the Advanced Flight Model? Why do we have to be forced into a single arcade pattern?

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Pretty sure Snipers post was firmly tongue in cheek ;)

 

Yeah, I realized this as well now :$

 

Lots of emotion about this new fatigue system, all of it negative. Makes me itchy.

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BIS, if the system will not change significantly, that will utterly mean that you guys don't listen to feedback given from people who care and take the effort to give it.

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