Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Bouben 3]

so the main problem is that you'd have to pull it up? that was just one idea of implementing it. i mean if you really have to justify every little thing with this kind of logic to allow yourself to accept another HUD element, then i guess HUD glasses (that are ingame already) could show things like heart rate. or would that not be abstract enough and thus unbareably illogical for you? :p don't answer i know what you mean. not only soldiers with the right equipment should have that info. still a cool idea to use technology like smurf described :p (you guys are no fun at all...seriously)

i personally don't think in these weird terms of justification and realism since, as has been pointed out several times, it's pretty pointless, if you look at the whole game.

i can totally understand your argument against having to pull something up though. might be impractical at times. i also totally get what you mean about needing the right amount of information at all times since we're talking about your own body. i've said that several times before. i was at no point thinking that the watch kind of thing would be the perfect solution for all nuances of personal sensitivities about HUD or no HUD.

try to see it as a little side tracking towards seeing this as an opportunity to use the whole augmented reality thing more. it's 2035 ingame after all :D i hope that is clear now.

i mean yea a bar is a super simple and practical solution. i agree on that 100%. but you do realise that this discussion is going round and round because some people don't like that idea, yea? forgive me for trying to find compromisses inbetween this constant "nothing at all" vs "nothing but shacktac-like bar".

I absolutely understand your point and have no problem with your approach. To each his own.

I, however, believe that the only solution there is is an option. The opinions in this discussion have so many backgrounds that I believe that endless compromises about a form of indication of fatigue would lead to a non-sense that would not do what it should and would not please everybody.

A simple on/off option is the solution to this problem as a number-less fatigue bar could not be possibly considered as cheating in any form. It is purely an immersion/aesthetic kind of thing in my opinion, and therefore should not cause any trouble even in MP scenarios.

PS:

I would love the glasses with HUD you are talking about in the game but not for a fatigue indication. That should be a separate thing.

[roshnak 41]

oh i perfectly understood that. it is however less "HUD-y" and by no means less realistic than a bar which gives you percentage. who are we kidding?...

It's less realistic if you're trying to justify the presentation of fatigue information with in game equipment. Like, realistically I don't have to look at a watch or whatever to know when I'm tired. Like, the equipment itself may be realistic and even actually exist in real life, but the justification for using that equipment to display information that I inherently know about my body certainly can't be, "it's more realistic."

But I also think the realism argument is kind of dumb and that we should be talking purely about the utility of the system and what kind of gameplay we want it to create.

PS:

I would love the glasses with HUD you are talking about in the game but not for a fatigue indication. That should be a separate thing.

The problem I see with using in game equipment to display any kind of important information that players should realistically have access to at all times is what happens if I don't have that equipment. Like, what if I'm not wearing the those glasses? Do I keep my HUD indicators?

[bad benson 1733]

well the point was to avoid (more) HUD elements since the other side's argument was that HUDs overall are not "realistic" (whatever that means...way overused term here). considering that it's not the case that without the bar the amount of information is zero (you kind of make it sound like that) i'd say you're kind of missing the point and the reason the suggestion was made in the first place. there would be still the audio and visual cues with an additional way to get a number for more detail. you know when you're tired anyways due to sway and your character choking to death :D. we are talking about fatigue management here(knowing "i will be tired soon"). why else would you need rather detailed info compared to what we have now?

but yea. i think there is no need to go any further into this. yes yes. i get it. a bar or nothing at all.

Like, what if I'm not wearing the those glasses? Do I keep my HUD indicators?

yes! some people might consider that interesting choices to make, you know. and if you look back a page it was a way broader concept that entails more than just fatigue. but it's slighty off-topic so it's a question for another time i guess.

[roshnak 41]

yes! some people might consider that interesting choices to make, you know. and if you look back a page it was a way broader concept that entails more than just fatigue. but it's slighty off-topic so it's a question for another time i guess.

I understand that, and it is interesting, but is it realistic that I can't tell how tired I am feeling unless I am wearing high tech glasses?'

That was the point I was making when I said that it's not necessarily more realistic than a stamina bar.

Edit: I understand that you're saying it would just be complimenting the existing heavy breathing and vignetting as a method of reporting fatigue to the player, but since one of the main arguments in favor of a stamina bar is that those features are unrealistically vague, adding a wearable piece of equipment that reports more specific information doesn't really solve the core issue, which is that humans inherently have a better idea how tired they are than what the game provides players.

It's a neat idea, and I'm not opposed to having those kinds of things in the game, but I don't think it's a good solution for this particular issue. And it's one of those things that kind of necessitates changing the whole way the game presents information to the player.

Edited September 6, 2014 by roshnak

[killzone_kid 1326]

setFatigue is b0rked again http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=20648

[cifordayzserver 119]

There is nothing too unfathomable about some sort of projector system being built into the helmet, or a bit further of a reach (although not much if they wanted to the US Gov't would just say shut up and do it) an implant that overlays info directly on your optic nerve... I know we're in the "not too distant" future and all, but growing up in the 80's we were all pretty sure we'd be in flying cars by now so... maybe the Armaverse could use a little suspension of disbelief.

It's like going to a Lord of the Rings movie with an autistic historian who thinks we're watching a documentary in here sometimes.

Want to make it acceptable to everyone? Make it alpha toggleable to the point you can make it disappear if you don't want it, have a hot key for it to pop up on demand... job done.

We debate the realism of a HUD as the camera floats 15 feet over our heads and behind us... IMO if this were a simulator there wouldn't be 3rd person, or countless other features/flaws of the game... it's a game, lets try to help make it the most playable and enjoyable version it can be.

I think one of the biggest problems in Arma is stagnation due to bi-party debate, systems can be catered/designed to appease both sides of any debate. IMO the game modes (hardcore, veteran, recruit) need to be more fully fleshed out. You could have a very different but equally satisfying games if they were properly disambiguated.

Hardcore - No Hud, Fatigue System, No 3rd Person, Normal Arma AI, No enemy indicators, no global/group chat (direct chat in range only)

Veteran - Toggleable HUD, 3rd Person optional, AI Scaled down to be more realistic (Opfor take 1 shot to kill, and something to reduce AI Accuracy/lethality), toggleable fatigue, toggleable Global/group chat

Recruit - HUD, No Fatigue, 3rd Person on, REALLY REALLY hindered AI (3-4 opfor shots required to kill player), global/group chat enabled.

Obviously this could be thought out a lot deeper, but this alone would be an IMMENSELY improved structure over the existing one where there is little to no difference between any of the tiers of difficulty.

[killzone_kid 1326]

Don't like current fatigue. IMO fatigue should be proportional to energy expenditure minus slow regen. So if you run fast you spend more energy than when you jog, if you go up a hill you spend more energy than when going down hill. The weight of your gear is a factor, but not as much as the speed, since E = (m*v^2)/2. So I've attempted to emulate fatigue taking those factors into account. Put this in debug console and try:

[color="#FF8040"][color="#191970"][b]onEachFrame[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color]
   [color="#1874CD"]_regPerSec[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]=[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]0.015[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
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   [color="#1874CD"]_up[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]=[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_vel[/color] [color="#191970"][b]select[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]2[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
   [color="#1874CD"]_vel[/color] [color="#191970"][b]set[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b][[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]2[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]0[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]][/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
   [color="#1874CD"]_k[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]=[/b][/color] [color="#191970"][b]switch[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#191970"][b]stance[/b][/color] [color="#000000"]player[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#191970"][b]do[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color]
       [color="#191970"][b]case[/b][/color] [color="#7A7A7A"]"CROUCH"[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]:[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]0.5[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]  
       [color="#191970"][b]case[/b][/color] [color="#7A7A7A"]"PRONE"[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]:[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]2.5[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color] 
       [color="#191970"][b]case[/b][/color] [color="#7A7A7A"]"STAND"[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]:[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]0.25[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
   [color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
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   [color="#1874CD"]_expPerSec[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]=[/b][/color] [color="#191970"][b]if[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#191970"][b]vehicle[/b][/color] [color="#000000"]player[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]![/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]=[/b][/color] [color="#000000"]player[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#191970"][b]then[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b][[/b][/color]
       [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]0[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color]
       [color="#8B3E2F"][b]{[/b][/color][color="#191970"][b]linearConversion[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b][[/b][/color][color="#FF0000"]0[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]100[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#191970"][b]loadAbs[/b][/color] [color="#000000"]player[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]/[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]10[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]+[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_bodyWeight[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]*[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#191970"][b]vectorMagnitude[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_vel[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]+[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_up[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]^[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]2[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]/[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]2[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]0[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]0.01[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#000000"]false[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]][/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]*[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_k[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color]
   [color="#8B3E2F"][b]][/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
   [color="#1874CD"]_fatigue[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]=[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]0[/color] [color="#191970"][b]max[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#000000"]player[/color] [color="#191970"][b]getVariable[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b][[/b][/color][color="#7A7A7A"]"fatigue"[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]0[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]][/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]+[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_time[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]*[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]([/b][/color][color="#1874CD"]_expPerSec[/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b]-[/b][/color] [color="#1874CD"]_regPerSec[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b])[/b][/color] [color="#191970"][b]min[/b][/color] [color="#FF0000"]1[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
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   [color="#000000"]player[/color] [color="#191970"][b]setVariable[/b][/color] [color="#8B3E2F"][b][[/b][/color][color="#7A7A7A"]"lastCheck"[/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b],[/b][/color] [color="#191970"][b]diag_tickTime[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b]][/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]
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[color="#8B3E2F"][b]}[/b][/color][color="#8B3E2F"][b];[/b][/color]  [/color]

Edited September 12, 2014 by Killzone_Kid

[Bouben 3]

There is nothing too unfathomable about some sort of projector system being built into the helmet, or a bit further of a reach (although not much if they wanted to the US Gov't would just say shut up and do it) an implant that overlays info directly on your optic nerve... I know we're in the "not too distant" future and all, but growing up in the 80's we were all pretty sure we'd be in flying cars by now so... maybe the Armaverse could use a little suspension of disbelief.

It's like going to a Lord of the Rings movie with an autistic historian who thinks we're watching a documentary in here sometimes.

Want to make it acceptable to everyone? Make it alpha toggleable to the point you can make it disappear if you don't want it, have a hot key for it to pop up on demand... job done.

We debate the realism of a HUD as the camera floats 15 feet over our heads and behind us... IMO if this were a simulator there wouldn't be 3rd person, or countless other features/flaws of the game... it's a game, lets try to help make it the most playable and enjoyable version it can be.

I think one of the biggest problems in Arma is stagnation due to bi-party debate, systems can be catered/designed to appease both sides of any debate. IMO the game modes (hardcore, veteran, recruit) need to be more fully fleshed out. You could have a very different but equally satisfying games if they were properly disambiguated.

Hardcore - No Hud, Fatigue System, No 3rd Person, Normal Arma AI, No enemy indicators, no global/group chat (direct chat in range only)

Veteran - Toggleable HUD, 3rd Person optional, AI Scaled down to be more realistic (Opfor take 1 shot to kill, and something to reduce AI Accuracy/lethality), toggleable fatigue, toggleable Global/group chat

Recruit - HUD, No Fatigue, 3rd Person on, REALLY REALLY hindered AI (3-4 opfor shots required to kill player), global/group chat enabled.

Obviously this could be thought out a lot deeper, but this alone would be an IMMENSELY improved structure over the existing one where there is little to no difference between any of the tiers of difficulty.

Those HUD indicators that are a necessary substitution for real-life systems has nothing to do with difficulty options. Having no HUD is not "hardcore". It is just stupid and absolutely not respecting a complex context of things. HUD is simply necessary. There is no other way yet.

[cifordayzserver 119]

Those HUD indicators that are a necessary substitution for real-life systems has nothing to do with difficulty options. Having no HUD is not "hardcore". It is just stupid and absolutely not respecting a complex context of things. HUD is simply necessary. There is no other way yet.

By No hud, I meant no hud showing by default, IE you have to use your hotkey to pull it up...

Oddly enough, while randomly browsing the internet, I came across this:

http://gizmodo.com/the-daqri-smart-helmet-wants-to-put-augmented-reality-t-1631615644?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_twitter&utm_source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

This would be a very simple elegant way of accomplishing it... You have an animation that has the player "look at his watch" and that triggers the HUD... sort of like Dead Space ... Making the hud more a part of the players environment and not something simply slapped on top of the 2d screen. Same tech could be used to display the map instead of the 2d GPS window in the bottom right, or ANY of the other HUD elements... this games HUD is literally just a polished version of OFP's... lets maybe get grounded in reality and realize that there are MANY existing and possible better solutions.

Saying there is no other way yet, is not only defeatist, but also fairly close minded and ignorant... there is no other way because no one has bothered to make one.

Much like KK's MUCH more intelligent fatigue system... It often does NOT take much to improve what we're working with right now. There just seems to be an unwillingness to embrace or encourage change in these forums.

[roshnak 41]

Again, I don't really think this is the thread to discuss completely changing the way information is presented to the player with fully immersive HUD systems. That's simply not the game that Arma is at this point, and, to be honest, I doubt it ever will be.

[Bouben 3]

By No hud, I meant no hud showing by default, IE you have to use your hotkey to pull it up...

OK, sorry for misunderstanding. That sounds reasonable.

[bad benson 1733]

And it's one of those things that kind of necessitates changing the whole way the game presents information to the player.

just for the record. that is not entirely true. compass, watch and GPS are 3 examples where, except for the watch, quite important info is tied to actual items. arma is actually super mixed up/all over the place and inconsistent as others have said. so that's an overstatment. BUT...just saying. i get that you want urgent info on a fixed HUD... :p

Edited September 8, 2014 by Bad Benson

[machineabuse 11]

Generally speaking what most communities want is the ability to tailor all the HUD information for their needs. I too am of the mind that delineation of features by difficulty is somewhat archaic. For one thing, most of what is on the HUD is important for accessibility of the visually handicapped and the rest should be the domain of the server admin and mission maker to control the player to player consistency of the experience.

If there is a stamina bar, that is an accessibility feature. If you feel you don't need it; power to you and turn it off. Simple as.

[roshnak 41]

just for the record. that is not entirely true. compass, watch and GPS are 3 examples where, except for the watch, quite important info is tied to actual items. arma is actually super mixed up/all over the place and inconsistent as others have said. so that's an overstatment. BUT...just saying. i get that you want urgent info on a fixed HUD... :p

Important information is tied to items which is tied to items in real life. And, even then, those things just pop up on your screen when you push a button. There is no animation. The character doesn't pull out a GPS and look down at it. There isn't even a border on the GPS in Arma 3. There is no precedent in this series for immersive presentation of information in the style of Dead Space or The Getaway or whatever other games have done it more recently.

I really don't believe that the way that Arma presents information is particularly mixed up or inconsistent. The big things that are presented without HUD information are health, fatigue, and oxygen when under water (please correct me if I'm missing something).

Health doesn't need a gui element. This isn't the kind of game where a health bar is useful. I could see the argument for having some indication of whether you've been shot in the arm or the leg, though.

Fatigue is obviously something that I think should have an indicator in the HUD.

I was unaware of the oxygen thing until I read it in this thread because I don't really mess around with underwater stuff, especially not without a rebreather. I don't know why that information isn't presented via the HUD and I think that it probably should be.

Basically every other piece of information in the game is presented via the HUD. Even if you were to argue that there were some things that were inconsistent, it's massively weighted toward more information presented via the HUD, not less.

And to bring the discussion back around the topic: Regardless of whether or not tying information about how tired you are to a piece of equipment like a watch or glasses is realistic (it's not), would it work to solve any of the complaints that the pro-stamina bar side has about the way the information is currently presented? I don't think it would. Glasses only work when worn, and players may not want to wear a special set of HUD glasses to get information about their character's body that they feel they should always have access to. A watch is an even worse option because it would force players to stop and interrupt what they are doing in order to figure out how tired they are.

[Bouben 3]

Generally speaking what most communities want is the ability to tailor all the HUD information for their needs. I too am of the mind that delineation of features by difficulty is somewhat archaic. For one thing, most of what is on the HUD is important for accessibility of the visually handicapped and the rest should be the domain of the server admin and mission maker to control the player to player consistency of the experience.

If there is a stamina bar, that is an accessibility feature. If you feel you don't need it; power to you and turn it off. Simple as.

I agree that stamina bar should not be controllable by server admins and mission makers.

[bad benson 1733]

Important information is tied to items which is tied to items in real life. And, even then, those things just pop up on your screen when you push a button. There is no animation. The character doesn't pull out a GPS and look down at it. There isn't even a border on the GPS in Arma 3. There is no precedent in this series for immersive presentation of information in the style of Dead Space or The Getaway or whatever other games have done it more recently.

how is that relevant? are you saying that no precedent is a reason to not do it more? makes no sense.

I really don't believe that the way that Arma presents information is particularly mixed up or inconsistent. The big things that are presented without HUD information are health, fatigue, and oxygen when under water (please correct me if I'm missing something).

arma's variations of ways to approach GUI may have some reasoning behind them but it sure is inconsistent. the compass could be on the HUD too but it's not since OFP just because...because it's way cooler this way ;). the map being like in these tablet mods would be great too. i mean there is/was (not sure for arma 3) even a rather useless radio on the map. you can have triggers on it but it doesn't look needed to me. it's just a cool thing especially if they'd build on such things.

side note: did you ever double tap O (watch button)? no idea why you keep bringing up having to pop it up. it's optional.

two indicators that are needed, one of which is part of this topic, are entirely missing, as you have just said. this whole thing is about you wanting one of those missing HUD element added to the game.:rolleyes: your reasoning is to ask "why aren't these things in the HUD, isn't it inconsitent to have less important info more visible?". so if you have a hard time "believing" me then just go by your own observations, if that's more acceptable.

you want more inconsistencies? "There isn't even a border on the GPS in Arma 3". there was in arma 2 wasn't there? what's up with that?

Even if you were to argue that there were some things that were inconsistent, it's massively weighted toward more information presented via the HUD, not less.

so we disagree on the degree of it? gosh. i don't even..

having some indication of whether you've been shot in the arm or the leg

that would be great.

EDIT: (snip..sorry misread this part) nvm...

would it work to solve any of the complaints that the pro-stamina bar side has about the way the information is currently presented?

i was proposing it to the other side too, since, as you may have noticed, there is not only your side of the argument. hell my whole initial point was asking why people would be so up in arms against such a useful thing (zhe bar). i mean i feel like i have to repeat it. there are cues already in the game. depending on how sufficient each individual subjectively deems these cues a heart rate monitor IS NOT "unrealistic" since it's not the only source of information. no, i don't argue for having such a thing like my life depends on it (it was just a frikkin idea), it's just that you are incorrect here but insist on repeating it. by taking your own personal perception of the current state as a fact. no wonder you can't grasp the context of what i said (please don't ignore the words i highlighted..)

Glasses only work when worn, and players may not want to wear a special set of HUD glasses to get information about their character's body that they feel they should always have access to. A watch is an even worse option because it would force players to stop and interrupt what they are doing in order to figure out how tired they are.

we have already established that it's not suitable for your side...several times. you can let it rest now.

i think you missed the most important parts of my last post. "for the record", "just saying". you are beating a dead horse. if anything i'm still just making a case for embracing a general concept more. if you can't see that by now then let it be said once and for all. i hope this is to your satisfaction and we can stop with this useless debate now.

sorry for OT everyone

Edited September 8, 2014 by Bad Benson
missing words..

[roshnak 41]

how is that relevant? are you saying that no precedent is a reason to not do it more? makes no sense.

It's relevant in that my whole point was that there was no precedent for a fully immersive HUDless interface and that implementing that sort of thing in Arma would be a huge departure from the way it works now and is unlikely to happen.

None of the things you mentioned (compass, watch, GPS) approach the fully immersive interface that was being suggested. They're closer to skeuomorphic gui elements than an immersive interface where the player character is animated looking down at his watch.

the compass could be on the HUD too but it's not since OFP just because...because it's way cooler this way

The compass is on the HUD. It's just hidden until you push (or double tap) a button and it has a fancy picture around it (I am aware that it is actually a model). A HUDless solution would be if it worked like DayZ Standalone's compass.

i think you missed the most important parts of my last post. "for the record", "just saying". you are beating a dead horse. if anything i'm still just making a case for embracing a general concept more. if you can't see that by now then let it be said once and for all. i hope this is to your satisfaction and we can stop with this useless debate now.

Posting "for the record," and "just saying" does not make your points irrefutable. You're allowed to post your opinion, and I'm allowed to post mine. That's the way discussions work.

If you want to make the case for embracing the concept of a HUDless interface, you should probably make a thread for it.

[bad benson 1733]

It's relevant in that my whole point was that there was no precedent for a fully immersive HUDless interface and that implementing that sort of thing in Arma would be a huge departure from the way it works now and is unlikely to happen.

None of the things you mentioned (compass, watch, GPS) approach the fully immersive interface that was being suggested. They're closer to skeuomorphic gui elements than an immersive interface where the player character is animated looking down at his watch.

The compass is on the HUD. It's just hidden until you push (or double tap) a button and it has a fancy picture around it (I am aware that it is actually a model). A HUDless solution would be if it worked like DayZ Standalone's compass.

when did i suggest animations or more advanced stuff like you describe? it's only a "huge departure", if you act like i talked about a dayZ like compass, which i didn't...at all...i talked about a technique that is already being used.

now you're just nitpicking without any constructive outcome. call it what you want. i like the 3d HUD objects that you can actually drop as an item (better?). they are more immersive to me than plain HUD. i really don't see why you're being difficult about this part. so random.

Posting "for the record," and "just saying" does not make your points irrefutable.

i didn't write it to make anything irrefutable, i wrote it because i assumed otherwise you wóuld repeat your old points again (which you did) eventhough they are useless to the debate and "wrong" (not fact). seems like it wasn't enough.

You're allowed to post your opinion, and I'm allowed to post mine. That's the way discussions work.

why do you think you have to explain the way discussions work to me? i think you are the one needing some help there. you might wanna start stepping away from the concept of realism as a base for your argument. i think it should be clear to you now how open to interpretation that term is. you should maybe refrain from saying things like this:

Regardless of whether or not tying information about how tired you are to a piece of equipment like a watch or glasses is realistic (it's not)

it's not? hm. what about the arguments that have been presented by "the other side" that in real life you feel fatigue kick in suddenly right after a marathon and not build up over time as notably? if you consider that as a way of looking at it (i know it's hard), you will see that in that context (just another example of saying something is good because it's "based in reality") the current fatigue cues are "realistic" and added info like, let's say a gadget :p, would help you manage fatigue better before you really feel it a lot (breathing, vignette).

call me a relativist but if you want (yea, it's that easy), that sounds more realistic than having a bar that shows you exactly the amount of energy you have left/used up. what i'm saying is what i said before. it's a useless debate. and it's sadly common practice on these forums to use "realism" as a magic bullet for solving everything, when this case shows exactly how fruitless that approach is since both sides use realism as an argument. "weaponized realism" is actually the number one method used to try to make something "irrefutable". :p

[roshnak 41]

when did i suggest animations or more advanced stuff like you describe? it's only a "huge departure", if you act like i talked about a dayZ like compass, which i didn't...at all...i talked about a technique that is already being used.

now you're just nitpicking without any constructive outcome. call it what you want. i like the 3d HUD objects that you can actually drop as an item (better?). they are more immersive to me than plain HUD. i really don't see why you're being difficult about this part. so random.

If you just wanted to have more HUD elements styled like the compass and watch, then I misunderstood what you were suggesting and I apologize. I probably got the intent of your suggestions mixed up with those of the people who were suggesting that Arma do away with the HUD altogether. Although, to be fair, I was initially replying to a person who was suggesting a Dead Space style interface, which is a game that does do away with a traditional HUD and presents all of it's information via the methods I described.

it's not? hm. what about the arguments that have been presented by "the other side" that in real life you feel fatigue kick in suddenly right after a marathon and not build up over time as notably? if you consider that as a way of looking at it (i know it's hard), you will see that in that context (just another example of saying something is good because it's "based in reality") the current fatigue cues are "realistic" and added info like, let's say a gadget :p, would help you manage fatigue better before you really feel it a lot (breathing, vignette).

call me a relativist but if you want (yea, it's that easy), that sounds more realistic than having a bar that shows you exactly the amount of energy you have left/used up. what i'm saying is what i said before. it's a useless debate. and it's sadly common practice on these forums to use "realism" as a magic bullet for solving everything, when this case shows exactly how fruitless that approach is since both sides use realism as an argument. "weaponized realism" is actually the number one method used to try to make something "irrefutable". :p

First of all, I have considered the arguments that people experience a sudden onset of fatigue like your marathon example. After having considered my own experiences and consulted with a friend who is a former Marine and generally a very fit person, I have come to the conclusion that it is not a typical reaction by physically fit people under most circumstances (incidentally, my friend was also outraged that the rate of stamina recovery was influenced by carry load when halted). It seems that this mostly occurs when people are either pushing themselves past the point where their bodies are telling them to stop, or are completely flooded with adrenaline. Chortles described the VBS 3 system as dynamically keeping your fatigue under 70% unless you pushed a special "PUSH HARDER" key, which seemed to be more accurate to what people experience under most circumstances.

But I made that statement because I believe that tying the extra fatigue information to equipment like a heart rate monitor does not address the core issue of whether the current in-game cues give players a realistic awareness of their character's feeling fatigued. It just works around it.

If you're a person who believes that players should have a more detailed inherent awareness of their character's fatigue state, then this solution probably will not make you happy (unless you just want to compromise or believe you will never be without that piece of equipment). If you're a person who believes that the current in-game cues already give about the right amount of information, but think additional information might be nice, then this solution will probably satisfy you.

I also don't believe that knowing your heart rate provides you with more useful information than what your body feels. If I look at my monitor and see that my heart rate is 150 BPM, does that mean that I can run for 5 more minutes or 20? I just don't feel like the information is any less abstract than vignetting or heavy breathing.

And, finally, didn't you already point out that heart rate and fatigue are not the same thing when the idea was first suggested?

Disregarding the realism aspect (which, you're right, will only carry us so far), I have previously stated that I don't believe that the purpose of the fatigue system was to create a "guess how tired you are" minigame, but instead to force players to consider things like loadout composition, travel routes, and travel speed while playing the game, which is hard to do if you don't have a pretty clear understanding of how those things will affect, or are affecting your fatigue level. Thus, I think that being very clear -- even at the expense of perhaps being unrealistically clear -- about the player's fatigue state is better for gameplay.

Edit: I don't think I repeated myself too much with this post (even though many of these discussions are just people repeating themselves anyway).

Edited September 9, 2014 by roshnak

[froggyluv 2130]

what about the arguments that have been presented by "the other side" that in real life you feel fatigue kick in suddenly right after a marathon and not build up over time as notably?

Except not.

Not sure who the other side is but if your referring to earlier discussions about accurate fatigue gauging during near or at maximal physical output I don't think marathons were ever on the table. Matter fact I remember precisely stating that aerobic levels would be far easier to monitor than short, quick or explosive anaerobic movements in which it is extremely common to reach an objective station feeling strong only to keel over a second later by a wave or nausea, light headedness and feeling like your gonna fuckin die outta breath.

I wouldn't mind some sort of measurement to gauge a slow and plodding prolonged movement, but would lmao at a such a representation for anaerobic action as that would indeed be a farce.

[machineabuse 11]

I think this is where we stand overall;

1. Some of us recognize the need for a stamina bar to facilitate getting over inadequate feedback.

2. By way of demonstration via ShackTac's Stamina Bar; as an exercise in utility a bar does indeed work.

3. Some of us would like a native option for a stamina bar for the express purpose of playing on servers who may for whatever reason choose not to support said mod.

4. Most of us don't wish to force the use or the denial of HUD elements on others.

5. Various solutions of diegetic and non-diegetic means as well as technologically canonical means have been discussed. Whether any of these will work is anyone's guess.

6. The mechanics of fatigue require abstraction as they are modeled around the vitals of the average ArmAverse warrior-athlete who's sole existence is to provide an avatar for players to inhabit and shoot at. The end goal being that the characteristics of said avatar be reasonably accurate to what a soldier could perceive as "real".

7. See point 2. :)

Y'all are some pretty smart dudes for and against. Keeping the debate from getting too personal helps leverage that intellect.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Machineabuse
Formatting for readability

[roshnak 41]

diegetic and non-diegetic

Thank you. I knew there was a term that I was looking for but I couldn't remember what it was. That was driving me crazy.

[bad benson 1733]

Chortles described the VBS 3 system as dynamically keeping your fatigue under 70% unless you pushed a special "PUSH HARDER" key, which seemed to be more accurate to what people experience under most circumstances.

yea actually i personally would like to see the fatigue changed a bit towards this concept because i think it would make a bar less needed. it would be more predictable then. i'm still always surprised and feel disconnect when my sway is all over the place even after rather short joggs. in arma 3 sprint or sprint crawl could be that "push harder". the rest would only go to 70% (or what ever).

I also don't believe that knowing your heart rate provides you with more useful information than what your body feels. If I look at my monitor and see that my heart rate is 150 BPM, does that mean that I can run for 5 more minutes or 20? I just don't feel like the information is any less abstract than vignetting or heavy breathing.

And, finally, didn't you already point out that heart rate and fatigue are not the same thing when the idea was first suggested?

you don't have to show me that. i well aware of having said that. as you may have noticed, some people don't give a shit. tpw already has a heart rate he uses in his mod successfully. and someone mentioned another mod too.

consider this. it's just a design choice for people who are not neurostic to the point where they need a perfect explaination for everything. let's be honest, all of the explainations people come up with are make believe anyways (do i have to bring up other HUD elements with no base in reality again?) since the system itself is already lacking a lot on terms of realism. i would never suggest simulating a real heart rate for that reason. it's just a matter of showing numbers instead of a bar and the lowest number not being zero ;)

Not sure who the other side is but if your referring to earlier discussions about accurate fatigue gauging during near or at maximal physical output I don't think marathons were ever on the table.

yea it might be a bad example. replace marathon with sprint, if you want, since the game doesn't really make a difference there anyways. although i doubt that you are trying to say that you can just end a marathon without feeling fatigue kick in hard, which is what i mean. it might be due to the sprint most people pull out at the end, dunno. it happens, find your own explaination for that :D

anaerobic or not (which again the game does not even distinguish..). the discussion revolved around info being provided too late and i think you were one of the people saying that it's realistic. i just remember you talking about "mud runs" or something. of course you will know your exact explaination for that better than me. others, i think coulum, said that athletes train for years to know their limits and several others said similar things. at some point the whole argument was "a bar tells you too much, you SHOULD NOT know exactly". i can't remember anyone sugggesting two bars, one for aerobic and one for anaerobic. yea bad example but you should know what i mean, which bears the question why you nitpick :p

I wouldn't mind some sort of measurement to gauge a slow and plodding prolonged movement, but would lmao at a such a representation for anaerobic action as that would indeed be a farce

that pretty much sums up my problem with the current system exactly. too much "why the fuck am i so exhausted right now" going on in the game atm. it's too general.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Bad Benson

[xyberviri 1]

in arma 3 sprint or sprint crawl could be that "push harder". the rest would only go to 70% (or what ever).

In Arma 2 i always thought that double tap W was my "push harder" key, the normal "run" speed is just a sprint, its not like your actually running.

it's just a design choice for people who are not neurostic to the point where they need a perfect explaination for everything.

The main problem there is no way to understand objects in a video game unless we are specifically told. Imagine if there was no sound , you just simply started taking damage and had no clue why, just because you couldn't hear the dude behind you shooting you in the back.

Now imagine if there is no way to "feel" how encumbered you are when you load up all your equipment.

Then get pissed because your tired for no apparent reason.

its pretty simple, if the devs are going to have a system that enforces some rules, the players need to know about the rules.

[bad benson 1733]

In Arma 2 i always thought that double tap W was my "push harder" key, the normal "run" speed is just a sprint, its not like your actually running.

yea. and eventhough, the almost or entirely zero sway in arma 2 was maybe a little bit too forgiving, the way sway and stamina was coupled was better than in arma 3 in my opinion. i mean jsut from a straight gameplay perspective penalizing sprint with bad aim makes more sense if you see it like a simple balance equation. you wanna run faster? well ok. but you'll have to deal with sway.

although i see what BI intend with penalizing jogg since it's also influenced by load. it sure is a complex thing and what they came up with so far isn't bad at all.

The main problem there is no way to understand objects in a video game unless we are specifically told. Imagine if there was no sound , you just simply started taking damage and had no clue why, just because you couldn't hear the dude behind you shooting you in the back.

yea i totally agree on the shortcomings of an object exactly like the compass. just got carried away with the whole realism thing ;) i still think though that a heart rate would be kinda cool just from the way the info is presented (as in numbers instead of a bar or maybe even an animated graph :inlove:). again i realise it would be a fake heart rate unless BI start to simulate single organs ;)

i find the arguments presented for a bar and the fact that people opposing it would not have to use it (especially not when toggleable) pretty convincing to be honest. and especially when looking at my main gripe with the system a bar could help. although i'd still prefer BI doing more work on the system itself first.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Bad Benson