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OK, while I have no problem with how the new fatigue and sway system works I realized I have a big problem with how it currently looks and feels.

It does not feel natural at all. When fatigued enough I can't overcome the feeling that my character in the game is hobbling. I understand the constant sway up and down is there to simulate the breathing but I believe that during the combat jog the pattern would not be so predictive, unnatural and strong. Your weapon is not supposed to be touching your chest after all and your hands would be shaking (not swaying in a such artificial pattern) when fatigued enough.

It really feels wrong while I actually like what it does with the gameplay.

What do you think, guys?

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You're talking about the new sway pattern in today's update I assume? It does look a bit wrong, on the other hand since the pattern is more predictable and therefore easier to counter.

Now I'm by no means the type of person that wants to add difficulty where it's not needed, but this has the unfortunate side effect of making combat pace shooting a bit too easy.

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barakokula[/b]31;2735376]Arma isn't meant for solo-one-man-army-Rambos. And it's not really meant for competitive gaming, either.

Really? May be not for you or your groups, but there is a whole shit ton of players that do play Arma competitively. My GOSH, go look at all the MP TvT modes and missions players have made. Don't you play TvT with your groups/clan? that's competitive game play bud.

---------- Post added at 16:45 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

St. Jimmy[/b];2735257]If you want to be light but still have AT with you then you need to leave stuff that you really won't need. Vest is heavy so leave that behind or change for a lighter one but you lose your armour, sacrifice that you need to do if you want to be really light, don't take pistol and any grenades and take bigger backpack if you need that.

If you want to take all the stuff with you, you need to get used to drop yourself prone, drop the backpack and the launcher and catch breath at the same time you watch the enemies. If you get under fire you raise yourself, take the backpack and launcher with you and get to the cover.

St Jimmy although I can appreciate the idea behind this, but if you drop your stuff in Koth you may lose it, plus, that game play can be very intense and in some cases you don't want to spend you time dropping/picking up your gear.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:45 ----------

live2reap[/b];2735876]I think I am going to stop posting in this thread though. I guess it was foolish of me to think that just because this is a thread about feedback that there would be a level of maturity that with the exception of a few posters, just was nowhere to be found. I might still post that video some people requested if I get around to it, but otherwise I don't see the point in attempting to have a discussion when 90% of the replies are Tl;Dr I'm just gonna flame you and have no idea what your post was about. Hell nobody even bothered to comment on my idea to make the fatigue system more realistic and still be punishing just the way everyone likes it. If I learned anything from posting in this thread though it is that there is a huge difference in opinion between Dev Branch and Stable Branch. Or maybe it is just the standard forum hive mind mentality.... who knows.

Hey man don't stop voicing your opinion, everyone is not going to agree d/t game play styles, game modes, etc... We all want the same, Arma to be great and fun. Arma 3 is a ways off unfortunately being 1.5 yrs after beta. hopefully the community can continue to lift this PC game up and carry it, because everyone knows BIS isn't.

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@JAndrews1 which community are you referring to? The community that I know like the way fatigue works and like the direction BIS is taking.

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One thing I really can't stand, and this is more of a game issue than just with the fatigue/sway (though the new system does exacerbate the issue quite a bit), is that when you look down the "3D" scopes like the MRCO/ARCO, the whole scope moves around the screen off-center from your view point. I don't know if this is supposedly more "realistic" or what, but I find it really obnoxious that half the time my reticle will be in the top/bottom half of my screen when trying to aim. Using a TrackIR, it makes me want to look up or down, but that doesn't really do much.

It would make a lot more sense if, like with the 2D scopes, the reticle was locked to the center of the screen, but the whole view moved around with weapon sway.

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i really like the new system. here why you can adapt. yes we can!

here is a good info of the new fatigue system. and i do really like the new system.

the battles get more difficult AND the medic is now much more important.

if you where shot you have a bad aim, but the medic can really help you to get

the aim a bit better again. (also not realistic but gameplay wise a good thing.

so watch the video, and maybe you understand the new system.

oh and btw. at 8min he is on 100% load and 100% fatigue and still can shoot the

enemys. and that state you wanna nerver get to ;)

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Since this thread is for dev branch fatigue feedback; have you tried the latest changes yet? Or are you all talking about the stable branch?

Today's changes:

Changed: Decreased fatigue gain rate. Related to engine changes / data fixes (should be roughly equal to previous state); additional tweaking to follow

Fixed: Inventory exhaustion multiplier caused undesired gains at higher (>80 %) loads

Changed: Small changes to fatigue formulas

Changed: Minor tweak to weapon sway formula

The fatigue seems to be relaxed a lot: heavily loaded soldier (>80% load) recovers twice as fast as before and gains the fatigue with half the rate.

A lighter load recovers only a bit faster but can also run at least 50% further.

Edited by Greenfist

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Since this thread is for dev branch fatigue feedback; have you tried the latest changes yet? Or are you all talking about the stable branch?

Thanks for pointing this out; we greatly appreciate feedback to the very latest changes!

Changed: Decreased fatigue gain rate. Related to engine changes / data fixes (should be roughly equal to previous state); additional tweaking to follow

Fixed: Inventory exhaustion multiplier caused undesired gains at higher (>80 %) loads

Changed: Small changes to fatigue formulas

Changed: Minor tweak to weapon sway formula

The fatigue seems to be relaxed a lot: heavily loaded soldier (>80% load) recovers twice as fast as before and gains the fatigue with half the rate.

To clarify, this was more like a bug fix than a relaxation: due to some nasty old code, it turned out that when a soldier was heavily encumbered, the fatigue decay approached 0; i.e. the time it would take to recover was, ahem, exponential. This was clearly undesired and we apologise that this sort of error made it through unchecked. There are some additional tweaks in effect, but I can pass on from Sandbox Design that these changes should be rather less noticeable: changes to parameters should, essentially, balance out the fixes to the underlying calculation. Tweaks lean towards taking longer to gain fatigue, and longer to recover from this.

More significant tweaks will need to be made as we approach the introduction of Weapon Inertia. This feature was planned for 1.24 (Bootcamp Update), but was cut late in the day (indeed, we cut this after announcing it in the Bootcamp Blog - an error that we work hard to avoid these days). Ultimately, Weapon Inertia should mean that smaller weapons will be easier to handle, while larger ones will remain more of a challenge to wield effectively. On reflection, I believe that the (unavoidable) exclusion of this feature led to some (avoidable) oversights in terms of Weapon Sway itself: the mechanics (Fatigue, Sway, Inertia) are closely interlinked; removing one aspect and re-adjusting the values of the others led to some undesired effects (such as the overly-pronounced lateral sway).

However, we also recognise that much of the feedback is simply a desire to play a different way. We're not afraid of the idea of 'The Platform' (indeed, we encourage it); however, our designers do believe that the core mechanics should represent a clear vision of the way we want to play. Consequently, while we're still keen to avoid a game option/difficulty switch, we are pursuing a Weapon Sway script command equivalent to enableFatigue; furthermore, we'd like to not only enable a binary switch, but offer scenario designers more options by introducing a multiplier parameters (i.e. a value 0 to n that increases or decreases the basic effect) to each of the features.

Any further feedback to these points is, as usual, welcomed.

Best,

RiE

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Question about inertia: When in dev branch? ;)

I hope you continue to risk dev branch playability with introducting potentially incomplete features because that's why we use it; to see the game evolve and give feedback.

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@JAndrews1 which community are you referring to? The community that I know like the way fatigue works and like the direction BIS is taking.

Huh? did I say something that confused you?

hopefully the community can continue to lift this PC game up and carry it, because everyone knows BIS isn't.

Is this what your asking about? if so, this personal statement has nothing to do with the fatigue thread as it has to deal with the ARMA community and how the ARMA community makes / carries this game.

Not sure if this clears it up. But does it really matter. I suppose not.

Hey Greenfist thanks for posting this. I play stable branch. So that's all I refer to.

"Since this thread is for dev branch fatigue feedback; have you tried the latest changes yet? Or are you all talking about the stable branch?

Today's changes:

Changed: Decreased fatigue gain rate. Related to engine changes / data fixes (should be roughly equal to previous state); additional tweaking to follow

Fixed: Inventory exhaustion multiplier caused undesired gains at higher (>80 %) loads

Changed: Small changes to fatigue formulas

Changed: Minor tweak to weapon sway formula The fatigue seems to be relaxed a lot: heavily loaded soldier (>80% load) recovers twice as fast as before and gains the fatigue with half the rate.

A lighter load recovers only a bit faster but can also run at least 50% further.

Looks like they are listening to its community! That's always a plus.

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i really like the new system. here why you can adapt. yes we can!

here is a good info of the new fatigue system. and i do really like the new system.

the battles get more difficult AND the medic is now much more important.

if you where shot you have a bad aim, but the medic can really help you to get

the aim a bit better again. (also not realistic but gameplay wise a good thing.

so watch the video, and maybe you understand the new system.

oh and btw. at 8min he is on 100% load and 100% fatigue and still can shoot the

enemys. and that state you wanna nerver get to ;)

I wished the guy in this video knew that if you walk with the pistol you walk around 5 or 6 km, or if you have AGM and place the rifle in the back you walk around 6 km/h

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To clarify, this was more like a bug fix than a relaxation: due to some nasty old code, it turned out that when a soldier was heavily encumbered, the fatigue decay approached 0; i.e. the time it would take to recover was, ahem, exponential. This was clearly undesired and we apologise that this sort of error made it through unchecked. There are some additional tweaks in effect, but I can pass on from Sandbox Design that these changes should be rather less noticeable: changes to parameters should, essentially, balance out the fixes to the underlying calculation. Tweaks lean towards taking longer to gain fatigue, and longer to recover from this.

More significant tweaks will need to be made as we approach the introduction of Weapon Inertia. This feature was planned for 1.24 (Bootcamp Update), but was cut late in the day (indeed, we cut this after announcing it in the Bootcamp Blog - an error that we work hard to avoid these days). Ultimately, Weapon Inertia should mean that smaller weapons will be easier to handle, while larger ones will remain more of a challenge to wield effectively. On reflection, I believe that the (unavoidable) exclusion of this feature led to some (avoidable) oversights in terms of Weapon Sway itself: the mechanics (Fatigue, Sway, Inertia) are closely interlinked; removing one aspect and re-adjusting the values of the others led to some undesired effects (such as the overly-pronounced lateral sway).

However, we also recognise that much of the feedback is simply a desire to play a different way. We're not afraid of the idea of 'The Platform' (indeed, we encourage it); however, our designers do believe that the core mechanics should represent a clear vision of the way we want to play. Consequently, while we're still keen to avoid a game option/difficulty switch, we are pursuing a Weapon Sway script command equivalent to enableFatigue; furthermore, we'd like to not only enable a binary switch, but offer scenario designers more options by introducing a multiplier parameters (i.e. a value 0 to n that increases or decreases the basic effect) to each of the features.

Any further feedback to these points is, as usual, welcomed.

Best,

RiE

Thanks for the info, it all sounds very good!

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Really? May be not for you or your groups, but there is a whole shit ton of players that do play Arma competitively. My GOSH, go look at all the MP TvT modes and missions players have made. Don't you play TvT with your groups/clan? that's competitive game play bud.

Clearly we have different understandings of what "competitive" means. I always thought it meant that you're actually competing for something other than just completing the mission successfully - you know, a prize, a place on a scoreboard, or even just bragging rights. None of that is present in simple, friendly TvT matches, is it?

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Thanks for pointing this out; we greatly appreciate feedback to the very latest changes!

To clarify, this was more like a bug fix than a relaxation: due to some nasty old code, it turned out that when a soldier was heavily encumbered, the fatigue decay approached 0; i.e. the time it would take to recover was, ahem, exponential. This was clearly undesired and we apologise that this sort of error made it through unchecked. There are some additional tweaks in effect, but I can pass on from Sandbox Design that these changes should be rather less noticeable: changes to parameters should, essentially, balance out the fixes to the underlying calculation. Tweaks lean towards taking longer to gain fatigue, and longer to recover from this.

More significant tweaks will need to be made as we approach the introduction of Weapon Inertia. This feature was planned for 1.24 (Bootcamp Update), but was cut late in the day (indeed, we cut this after announcing it in the Bootcamp Blog - an error that we work hard to avoid these days). Ultimately, Weapon Inertia should mean that smaller weapons will be easier to handle, while larger ones will remain more of a challenge to wield effectively. On reflection, I believe that the (unavoidable) exclusion of this feature led to some (avoidable) oversights in terms of Weapon Sway itself: the mechanics (Fatigue, Sway, Inertia) are closely interlinked; removing one aspect and re-adjusting the values of the others led to some undesired effects (such as the overly-pronounced lateral sway).

However, we also recognise that much of the feedback is simply a desire to play a different way. We're not afraid of the idea of 'The Platform' (indeed, we encourage it); however, our designers do believe that the core mechanics should represent a clear vision of the way we want to play. Consequently, while we're still keen to avoid a game option/difficulty switch, we are pursuing a Weapon Sway script command equivalent to enableFatigue; furthermore, we'd like to not only enable a binary switch, but offer scenario designers more options by introducing a multiplier parameters (i.e. a value 0 to n that increases or decreases the basic effect) to each of the features.

Any further feedback to these points is, as usual, welcomed.

Best,

RiE

This sort of feedback from devs is always calming. Thanks, RiE.

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however, our designers do believe that the core mechanics should represent a clear vision of the way we want to play. Consequently, while we're still keen to avoid a game option/difficulty switch, we are pursuing a Weapon Sway script command equivalent to enableFatigue; furthermore, we'd like to not only enable a binary switch, but offer scenario designers more options by introducing a multiplier parameters (i.e. a value 0 to n that increases or decreases the basic effect) to each of the features.

Any further feedback to these points is, as usual, welcomed.

Best,

RiE

This is hugely inspiring. Love the fact that you guys have vision and hold your ground in the way YOU want to play. I don't always agree with your direction and am glad you guys consider feedback but it's even more important that you guys have vision and not just pandering to the loudest voices.

More significant tweaks will need to be made as we approach the introduction of Weapon Inertia.

Yes! Can't wait :)

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I wish that many of the people complaining would realize that the new fatigue works for everyine on the server...

I see so many people complaining that they are at a disadvantage in PvP while they completely forget that everyone has to adapt to it.

Complainer styles so far

I can't carry half an arsenal any more.

Campers are at an advantage because I can't be bothered to go from cover to cover.

My twitch shooter style of gameplay doesn't work anymore.

All complaints essentially boil down to those three things.

To the first I say: Thank God!

The second: You will Adapt. Don't overload yourself and go from cover to cover. Avoid large open Areas. Don't attack campers from the front, find a way around them. Arma let's you do that.

The third: Actually it does. Try doing it with a SMG and light load instead of your favourite MG+ Rocket launcher combination.

Don't forget that your human oponnents have to deal with the same problems!

Be smarter than them.

pretty well put.

It took a while for me to adapt but now i make sure never to run into combat headfirst and to use more cover. which is not only much more authentic but also a lot more tactical and rewarding. BIS have made a brave effort which will evolve but i hope they keep their principles with such innovation.

It's important for mission makers to also understand these changes and creatively incorporate logistic/transport or setfatigue off. the options are there already.

as an old sayng goes - your ability to survive is proportionate to your ability to adapt.

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It seems like the best arguments in favor of the new fatigue and sway system are the videos and arguments of those that object it.

Edited by Variable

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offer scenario designers more options by introducing a multiplier parameters (i.e. a value 0 to n that increases or decreases the basic effect) to each of the features.

I hope these options pull through. You get so much more out of these features if you let the community get their hands on the parameters.

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The only thing I don't like about the new fatigue system is that it doesn't seem to affect the AI. If I'm retreating and I turn to catch my breath and engage an AI who is following me, it seems as though they can instantly and accurately shoot me whereas my weapon is bobbing all over the place.

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"More significant tweaks will need to be made as we approach the introduction of Weapon Inertia. This feature was planned for 1.24 (Bootcamp Update), but was cut late in the day (indeed, we cut this after announcing it in the Bootcamp Blog - an error that we work hard to avoid these days). Ultimately, Weapon Inertia should mean that smaller weapons will be easier to handle, while larger ones will remain more of a challenge to wield effectively. On reflection, I believe that the (unavoidable) exclusion of this feature led to some (avoidable) oversights in terms of Weapon Sway itself: the mechanics (Fatigue, Sway, Inertia) are closely interlinked; removing one aspect and re-adjusting the values of the others led to some undesired effects (such as the overly-pronounced lateral sway). "

I think this is a wrong aproach.

First of all we have all the penalties of the real life ( realistic weight, fatigue, inertia etc) but we dont have any of benefits ( trained strength, adrenaline, more acuraccy based on training etc).

Before the update one veteran using his speed and his shooting skill can make a great gameplay, now we have a extrange version of the game where nobody can make a great gameplay because the player suffer all the penalties.

I'm pleased with the penalties against extreme heavy soldier ( usually AT soldiers) but I think that create more and more penalties to the game increase the "realism" of the game.

I think the game need an internal reflexion about the "destiny" of the game (is this a simulator, arcade, realistic way or what).

If we have an stamina we need an adrenaline bar too.

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None of that makes a lick of sense, djotacon. Are you somehow suggesting that none of the avatars in ArmA are trained shooters with strong arms? Since they all have perfect trigger pulls and can hold an anti-personnel rifle or rocket launcher at arm's length literally forever, I think you may be discounting the many advantages that only exoskeleton-wearing space marines could have in real life.

And increasing sway only increases the skill needed to mitigate it.

If we have an stamina we need an adrenaline bar too.
And how on earth would that be modeled or tracked? I rather think that players already benefit from adrenaline on a permanent basis, seeing as they can sprint with multiple bullet wounds to the legs.

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"And how on earth would that be modeled or tracked? I rather think that players already benefit from adrenaline on a permanent basis, seeing as they can sprint with multiple bullet wounds to the legs. "

Right now 2 shoot in the legs = dead... theres no "multiple bullets wounds to legs".

An "adrenaline bar" works the same way that stamina bar... giving benefits instead penalities by a short period of time ( removes sway, more speed, less recoil etc).

But create a new sub-debate about adrenaline bar isn't relate with the thread.

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And how on earth would that be modeled or tracked? I rather think that players already benefit from adrenaline on a permanent basis, seeing as they can sprint with multiple bullet wounds to the legs.

I get your point but one shot to the leg almost always stops you from sprinting.

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Adrenaline causes hand-eye coordination and timing to deteriorate. It's not a magic potion that you decide to drink and then suddenly get less tired. It will make you less accurate.

And players can take multiple pistol rounds to the legs and run and walk just fine. In real life you would be crawling and too overwhelmed with pain to fight, if not for adrenaline.

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"Adrenaline causes hand-eye coordination and timing to deteriorate. It's not a magic potion that you decide to drink and then suddenly get less tired. It will make you less accurate."

We can discuss the how to affect the adrenaline a real soldier into the real world but this is not the point of the thread.

"And players can take multiple pistol rounds to the legs and run and walk just fine. In real life you would be crawling and too overwhelmed with pain to fight, if not for adrenaline."

Two shoots with an 6.5 rifle and you are dead. Tested on arsenal right now.

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