Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Bouben 3]

The information about level of fatigue is good when you have to run through a risky area. Thats when the fatigue indicator would be helpful so that you can prevent the slowdown in the middle of a field without a cover. With fatigue indicator (percentual) you would be able to estimate how far you can go or when you are ready to run in full speed again etc. So I am not talking only about weapon sway here. Fatigue influence more than that.

But as I see you guys panicking about it already... :-)))

---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------

As for the Fatigue Indicator... I guess you also want a Life Indicator and an Armor Indicator right ? :plain:

No.

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[Jona33 51]

To be honest I don't see the need for a fatigue indicator, I could tell when I'm ready to run again as it is as well as basic logic would dictate if I just sprinted 100m and my scope's all over the place, I'm tired.

[John Kozak 14]

There is no feedback for your current stance except the stance indicator. Variations of stance especially are too subtle to recognize. The same with the fire mode. The switch is not always visible, and you have no way to feel it. But above all, these things are "fixed-valued". You are either standing, kneeling, or prone. With fatigue, where would you put your 50% point in reality? When are you half-fatigued?

I am not saying that you shouldn't know your fatigue level, or at least have an indication of how fatigued you are. But while in reality you can perfectly say whether you are standing or kneeling, or verify that your gun is on safe or single fire, you cannot say "I am 50% fatigued now", and hence, this is not an information you would readily have available. Hence, you eyeball it. The panting and display blur give you an indication, not a value, and it shouldn't. I agree it could be more obvious, and I like the idea of a heartbeat, and maybe impair hearing by adding a low-pass filter on the audio. But in no way should the game tell you your fatigue level, this is just information that is not available to you. It should convey the feeling of exhaustion.

Well, the problem with that approach is that it can be scrambled easily.

If you are tired IRL, you'll feel tired even if you are near a chopper (which doesn't allow you to hear panting in game) at night (which makes visual effects invisible). Basically, the only indicator always available is weapon sway, which is in turn also affected by wounds.

Percent readout or a bar might be indeed too precise, but there are other means - like, for example, stance indicator coloring suggested above. If it will be gradual, it won't give too much information. If anything, ammo counter is much more out-of-place than that.

Edited July 9, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[Bouben 3]

How would you be able to predict when you are ready ? If you KNOW how fast fatigue goes down, you could, but again, how would you translate those values you get from the indicator to an actual time of readiness ? The only clear indication you have is if you can line up a shot. No indicator will ever tell you that any better than just aiming and trying to keep your aim steady.

As such, any sort of indicator is unnecessary. You see the weapon sway, you see some blurring on the sides, you hear your breathing. More, you do not know, and an indicator would not help you in any way.

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 PM ----------

Again, how would an indicator give you any more information than you already have ?

Moreover, assume you had a full awareness of the percentage of your exhaustion (something you don't have in real life either). What threshold would you take ? 50 % ? Naw, I can run... 51 % ? Ok, now I have to stop. There are visual and audible indicators that tell you how fatigued you are (basically, it's like a green, yellow, red indicator, like, you're in the green when you don't see/hear anything, you are in the yellow when you start breathing heavily, and you're in red when you start having the blurry border). There is all the information you need.

And again, the ultimate fatigue indicator is the look over your weapon sight at the target.

I fail to see how a fatigue indicator could be useful or transfer more information than you already have.

Go ahead and convince me.

You don't understand the point of the percentual indicator. The point is you can see the rate of percents climbing up and therefore estimate how far you can run yet etc. This is nothing about numbers. You can substitute percentual indicator with an animated bar going from 0 to 100 without numbers. The rate of climbing of values is crucial here. Not exact numbers.

[froggyluv 2130]

+1 to audio/visual cues only!

[mr_centipede 31]

To be honest I don't see the need for a fatigue indicator, I could tell when I'm ready to run again as it is as well as basic logic would dictate if I just sprinted 100m and my scope's all over the place, I'm tired.

Then your scope stabilizes and you assume you're in full stamina again and sprint for next cover to find you can only cover about 20m before getting fatigue again... Instead usual distance of maybe 100m. Because you wrongly assume that when your scope stabilize = full stamina. It probably meant your fatigue level just reached a threshold between weapon to start swaying and weapon stable.

I think that's what Bouben trying to explain... because IRL, you would know when you're tired, just caught your breath but cant run yet, and fully recovered... (mental power aside)

[John Kozak 14]

To be honest I don't see the need for a fatigue indicator, I could tell when I'm ready to run again as it is as well as basic logic would dictate if I just sprinted 100m and my scope's all over the place, I'm tired.

Yeah, but what if you sprinted 10 meters, fired and dropped your PCML, then run another 20? Should you sprint to next cover, once more, or are you not gonna make it? Answer now, you don't have 10 seconds to listen to panting you won't hear anyway over firefight.

[Bouben 3]

Then your scope stabilizes and you assume you're in full stamina again and sprint for next cover to find you can only cover about 20m before getting fatigue again... Instead usual distance of maybe 100m. Because you wrongly assume that when your scope stabilize = full stamina. It probably meant your fatigue level just reached a threshold between weapon to start swaying and weapon stable.

I think that's what Bouben trying to explain... because IRL, you would know when you're tired, just caught your breath but cant run yet, and fully recovered... (mental power aside)

Thank you Centipede for understanding my point.

IRL your knowledge about your current physical and mental status is much more precise than what we currently have in the game. And that is simply wrong.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Bouben
grammar

[Greenfist 1863]

Then your scope stabilizes and you assume you're in full stamina again and sprint for next cover to find you can only cover about 20m before getting fatigue again... Instead usual distance of maybe 100m. Because you wrongly assume that when your scope stabilize = full stamina. It probably meant your fatigue level just reached a threshold between weapon to start swaying and weapon stable.

I think that's what Bouben trying to explain... because IRL, you would know when you're tired, just caught your breath but cant run yet, and fully recovered... (mental power aside)

But you do know how rested you are, because you know perfectly well what you did 20 seconds ago in the game. Even if there isn't any effect of fatigue at that very moment, you know you can't run that 100m, because you stopped only moments before and you were panting then.

I think you people haven't even tried to learn the new system yet. You are all smart people, you can do it! ;)

[Alwarren 2765]

If you are tired IRL, you'll feel tired even if you are near a chopper (which doesn't allow you to hear panting in game) at night (which makes visual effects invisible). Basically, the only indicator always available is weapon sway, which is in turn also affected by wounds.

Which is why I proposed to add an audio filter

Percent readout or a bar might be indeed too precise, but there are other means - like, for example, stance indicator coloring suggested above. If it will be gradual, it won't give too much information. If anything, ammo counter is much more out-of-place than that.

Keep the HUD minimal. If it can be done with a visual or audible cue, do it with that and do not add artificial stuff. For example, why the heck is there a fuel indicator on the HUD of vehicles? These things usually have a fuel gauge. I wish BIS would get rid of it. Damage lights? Get rid of it already. I don't have a "tire blown" control lamp in my car either. Your face doesn't have a HUD, so try to keep it at a minimum; display what cannot be provided otherwise, and display whatever the player should have access to. Everything else, get it out of my face and were it belongs.

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

Yeah, but what if you sprinted 10 meters, fired and dropped your PCML, then run another 20? Should you sprint to next cover, once more, or are you not gonna make it? Answer now, you don't have 10 seconds to listen to panting you won't hear anyway over firefight.

Your example is irrelevant. You never know if you are going to make it or not in reality as well. Just because an information is handy to have doesn't mean you should have it.

[John Kozak 14]

I think you people haven't even tried to learn the new system yet. You are all smart people, you can do it! ;)

Condescending attitude detected

[John Kozak 14]

Which is why I proposed to add an audio filter

Keep the HUD minimal. If it can be done with a visual or audible cue, do it with that and do not add artificial stuff. For example, why the heck is there a fuel indicator on the HUD of vehicles? These things usually have a fuel gauge. I wish BIS would get rid of it. Damage lights? Get rid of it already. I don't have a "tire blown" control lamp in my car either. Your face doesn't have a HUD, so try to keep it at a minimum; display what cannot be provided otherwise, and display whatever the player should have access to. Everything else, get it out of my face and were it belongs.

If you're not looking at the stance indicator, you won't notice the change.

If you hate the whole UI so much - why not finding a mod that disables it?

Your example is irrelevant. You never know if you are going to make it or not in reality as well. Just because an information is handy to have doesn't mean you should have it.

No, it is relevant. Every time I do a run - do know whether I can sprint another 20/50 meters or not. Anyone who run frequently can estimate that. Just because some don't know that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Edited July 9, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[Variable 322]

With fatigue indicator (percentual) you would be able to estimate how far you can go or when you are ready to run in full speed again etc. So I am not talking only about weapon sway here. Fatigue influence more than that.

When you are sprinting in real are you saying, oh, I am 75% fatigued, that means I can sprint only to X and not to Y? Not every feature that can help you take decisions is also a good one. This is an human infantry simulator not a T-101 terminator game.

[Varanon 892]

Lets take stance indicator and use your thoughts. What more do you get having it? Position of your arms in different stances, camera height and weapon sway already indicate everything and enough.

This is a flawed example. You have no feedback whatsoever indicating your stance, especially not with the different intermediate stances. Camera height, yeah, right... as if you could determine whether your in-game eyes are 150 or 180 above the ground...

So, let me explain again. Purpose of indicator for ME, would be to determine how tired my character is so I wouldn't exhaust him too much. I don't know what threshold I would tolerate yet. I suppose it depends on on my loadout, what kind of engagement am I expecting and when, etc.

So, what part of wheezing and blurring doesn't convey that information already ? Contrary to stance, there are several sources of feedback that show you your fatigue state.

Honestly, it is rather difficult to determine how tired you character is based on audio and visual indications with certain loads.

It also does not take few seconds to catch you breath, especially with full load. Not to mention if injured and healed with FAK (also sounds like an asthma attack all the time). It takes more then enough time to get a bullet in your head ten times over.

And, obviously you don't have any indicators stapled to you eye in real life but you do know your body. You know how tired you are, what you can and cannot do. Especially if you are an athlete or a soldier.

I mean really, you cannot know exactly how much ammo you have left in most types of magazines IRL. Or which grenade you have selected, etc. That does not mean HUD should be removed from game. Difficulty settings are there to customize the game to your likings. If fatigue indicator is added it would be cool little addition if not, just as well.

A fatigue indicator would not relay more information than we already have right now. The feedback that is in (blur, sounds) is more than enough. I agree that the wheezing sounds a bit like sex sometimes and could do with some refinement, but the fact that it is there already negates the need for a specific indicator. I can only repeat, an indicator would not convey more information

Are you going to put it in the game if I do?

No. But I'm a little bit tired of presenting arguments and being countered with opinions.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

If you hate the whole UI so much - why not finding a mod that disables it?

Whoa, that door swings both ways :D

[Variable 322]

No, it is relevant. Every time I do a run - do know whether I can sprint another 20/50 meters or not. Anyone who run frequently can estimate that. Just because some don't know that doesn't mean it's impossible.

You can know almost the same using the current audio and visual feedback of the game, you don't need a a HUD element for that. Seriously people, don't you guys feel that as less HUD the better?

[Alwarren 2765]

If you're not looking at the stance indicator, you won't notice the change.

Agreed - look at my earlier post where I said that things like the stance indicator are okay since the information is unambiguous and not as fuzzy as health or fatigue.

If you hate the whole UI so much - why not finding a mod that disables it?

Oh come on, can't you do better? This is the typical bollocks I hear all the time - I criticize an aspect of the game and am automatically a "hater". Are you so desperately fishing for arguments that you have to stoop to that level?

For the record, I could make a mod that disables these elements, but that puts me at a disadvantage. I prefer a level playing field, where every player has access to the information he or she would have, not some artificial indicator for something abstract or unavailable. Whether my engine is broken or not is something that I cannot say when my car doesn't start. I can only say that my car doesn't start. I then verify that I have fuel, and if that is the case, open the hood to see if there is anything wrong. I do not have a control light that says my engine is broken.

Relevant information that are naturally available is what belongs on the HUD. Everything else should not be there. Why do we have a compass we need to bring up? Because it is how you use a compass. We don't have a HUD compass. The information would be neat to have, but in reality, is not available to us. Likewise, there is no health bar. It would be neat to know how injured you are, but that information is not available. The red border just tells you "I'm hurt", and the blood splatters on your uniform tells you where you are hurt, but that is it, and that SHOULD be it.

BIS has adopted a minimal HUD policy, and I very much like this (with one exception - the fire mode selection should be available). As little artificial information as possible, with most of the axillary information conveyed by audio and visual cue. I do think that some of the sounds are inadequate, and taking them away in third person is not a good idea, but adding artificial information bars or indicates to the HUD is not a solution to this problem.

No, it is relevant. Every time I do a run - do know whether I can sprint another 20/50 meters or not. Anyone who run frequently can estimate that. Just because some don't know that doesn't mean it's impossible.

I invite you to go to Wikipedia and look up the term "weasel word".

[John Kozak 14]

You can know almost the same using the current audio and visual feedback of the game, you don't need a a HUD element for that. Seriously people, don't you guys feel that as less HUD the better?

Well, I think there's a little confusion - you're arguing against other point that I'm promoting. Not a problem, given the multitude of ones given in this thread and that I chimed in in the middle.

What I'm not proposing is not a new element - that's my point! :-) Just paint the stance indicator with some color and we're done. Or make the outline opaque and the inside with variable transparency - simple and elegant, doesn't clutter HUD, doesn't give away too much information.

IMO, the root of discussion is really not the indication itself, but whether current fatigue feedback is enough. I think, that depends on play style strongly - I, for one, more like urban combat with "think-on-your-feet" decisions and frequent relocations. For me, there's just not enough time to listen to panting. Some are more inclined for slow, thoughtful and tactical approach. Sure that's cool thing too. And the goodness of ArmA is that it can encompass both those gamestyles. But then, there are different expectations for different players - of course, if we don't try to paint one style "good" and the other "bad".

There can be a good compromise.

[John Kozak 14]

I invite you to go to Wikipedia and look up the term "weasel word".

"We the ArmA veterans/modders/..." is not different at all.

[John Kozak 14]

Whoa, that door swings both ways :D

Nope, because if fatigue-o-meter isn't getting added, he still will suffer with this terrible HUD, so his point is actually irrelevant ;-)

[John Kozak 14]

Agreed - look at my earlier post where I said that things like the stance indicator are okay since the information is unambiguous and not as fuzzy as health or fatigue.

Oh come on, can't you do better? This is the typical bollocks I hear all the time - I criticize an aspect of the game and am automatically a "hater". Are you so desperately fishing for arguments that you have to stoop to that level?

For the record, I could make a mod that disables these elements, but that puts me at a disadvantage. I prefer a level playing field, where every player has access to the information he or she would have, not some artificial indicator for something abstract or unavailable. Whether my engine is broken or not is something that I cannot say when my car doesn't start. I can only say that my car doesn't start. I then verify that I have fuel, and if that is the case, open the hood to see if there is anything wrong. I do not have a control light that says my engine is broken.

Relevant information that are naturally available is what belongs on the HUD. Everything else should not be there. Why do we have a compass we need to bring up? Because it is how you use a compass. We don't have a HUD compass. The information would be neat to have, but in reality, is not available to us. Likewise, there is no health bar. It would be neat to know how injured you are, but that information is not available. The red border just tells you "I'm hurt", and the blood splatters on your uniform tells you where you are hurt, but that is it, and that SHOULD be it.

BIS has adopted a minimal HUD policy, and I very much like this (with one exception - the fire mode selection should be available). As little artificial information as possible, with most of the axillary information conveyed by audio and visual cue. I do think that some of the sounds are inadequate, and taking them away in third person is not a good idea, but adding artificial information bars or indicates to the HUD is not a solution to this problem.

Did I say "hater" anywhere? You're attacking a straw man here, really.

And hey, compass is not a natural feeling. Tiredness is.

Edited July 9, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[Greenfist 1863]

Condescending attitude detected

See, I knew you were smart. But can you also detect a point veiled in that condescending humour? ;)

Anyway, I think each these arguments could as well be used to oppose or object a health bar.

And; do we want a new meter only because the system is new? Or do we don't want it only because we didn't have one in the first place?

[John Kozak 14]

See, I knew you were smart. But can you also detect a point veiled in that condescending humour? ;)

Anyway, I think each these arguments could as well be used to oppose or object a health bar. Think about it; do we want a new meter only because the system is new? Or do we don't want it only because we didn't have one in the first place?

No, I actually think this is a nice idea regardless of whether fatigue is changed at all. As long as it's something non-intrusive, as I describe above. And besides, that'd give more incentive to tone down panting - since it would not be the only viable indicator anymore.

P.S.Healthbar would be a totally different discussion. As for fatigue - Ghost Recon Advanced Warfare had a fake "cardiogram" in lower left corner, as well as weapon sway and breathing sounds. In my opinion, they actually nailed it perfectly - it was both non-intrusive/atmospheric and informative.

Edited July 9, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[Alwarren 2765]

"We the ArmA veterans/modders/..." is not different at all.

My, you are really running out of sane things to say, huh? I never anywhere waved the "I'm a modder" or "I'm a veteran" card around. I am both, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making, and most of all, I didn't use it for arguments. If that is all you have to say on my post, then there is nothing more to say.

[John Kozak 14]

My, you are really running out of sane things to say, huh? I never anywhere waved the "I'm a modder" or "I'm a veteran" card around. I am both, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making, and most of all, I didn't use it for arguments. If that is all you have to say on my post, then there is nothing more to say.

No, it's not me who run out of sane words. What I said is a verifiable fact which is known to anyone who does excercise frequently. Don't believe me - ask around.

Dismissing a valid point as "irrelevant", making a "weasel" reference and cling to my response to that, on the other hand, is very sane and argument-filled indeed.

[Bouben 3]

When you are sprinting in real are you saying, oh, I am 75% fatigued, that means I can sprint only to X and not to Y? Not every feature that can help you take decisions is also a good one. This is an human infantry simulator not a T-101 terminator game.

I am affraid you not read everything I have written.

I have already stated that exact numbers does not matter. See my previous words here:

"You don't understand the point of the percentual indicator. The point is you can see the rate of percents climbing up and therefore estimate how far you can run yet etc. This is nothing about numbers. You can substitute percentual indicator with an animated bar going from 0 to 100 without numbers. The rate of climbing of values is crucial here. Not exact numbers."

"IRL your knowledge about your current physical and mental status is much more precise than what we currently have in the game. And that is simply wrong."

So no, I don't want to calculate exact numbers of meters I am able to run yet. I just need in-game substitution for feelings and intuition from real life. And because amount of gear you take with you is completely variable you need more precise indicator that is able to show you effects of your current loadout.

When I put a lot of gear on myself IRL, I am perfectly able to tell what I can do with it physically and what not. I am not able to tell it in the game, because I have to get fatigued in order to tell it. And that is too late. If I see the fatigue meter climbing fast, I am able to keep a certain pace at which I can safely move around. I can choose a tempo and keep it without constantly having to guess if I can make 10 more meters or not.

IRL you don't guess on short distances and on normal terrain. You simply know. In the game, currently, you have to guess constantly and count every meter because you never know it well. And that is simply wrong and paradoxically unrealistic. This chase for HUD-less realistic game, in this case, makes the game less realistic. I don't want to dumb the game down. I love challenge but I hate irrational stuff like HUD-less games. HUD is absolutely necessary for some things and fatigue system in Arma 3 is, I believe, one of those things.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Bouben
grammar