Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[striike 10]

from latest SITREP

:( it seems we have to wait a little more for that ...

Well, that sucks, its the only update I care about.

[royaltyinexile 175]

f

:( it seems we have to wait a little more for that ...

Yes, sorry about that!

Features related to animations carry the risk of unexpected delays, and - given that it's such a core mechanic - we wanted to ensure that even the first dev-branch release is in the right condition.

Basically, Inertia and Weapon Sway are closely related but separable. What you see in dev misses any of the inertia experimentation. Radko is poised to pen another splendid OPREP on the subject soonâ„¢.

Best,

RiE

[Smurf 12]

Since we're at weapon handling, the recoil will also be tweaked to be more "3D"?

[royaltyinexile 175]

Since we're at weapon handling, the recoil will also be tweaked to be more "3D"?

Hm, suffice to say, we consider Sway and Inertia to be two 'sub-components' of Weapon Handling, and work related to improving it further is part of Marksman DLC's feature set.

Best,

RiE

[Chuckh116 10]

There is too much sway on guns already and way too much on things like the rangefinder. Even when you are standing and not out of breath it still sways for no reason at all...this needs to be addressed.

[Bouben 3]

There is too much sway on guns already and way too much on things like the rangefinder. Even when you are standing and not out of breath it still sways for no reason at all...this needs to be addressed.

Have you ever used binoculars in real life? I was recently surprised how much sway and shaking there was even if I rested my hands on something.

[vegeta897 13]

That's exactly the point. The AI behaviour will never be changed to consider these things. Just as they don't hold their breath to take shots at you now, much less will they move considering when to run and when to stop, etc. You believe so because you think BIS will modify the AI FSMs. They're not. They can't. They prefer to go for these changes that are easy. The new animation system is a good example. It is good for us, but it makes the AI get stuck like they didn't in A2.

How can you say so definitively that they will never be changed? Balancing the AI in response to the new fatigue and sway does not have to involve the FSM at all. BIS have already been making changes to AI behavior in firefights several times since the game released. Things like how they react when getting shot and how it affects their aim. You can look these things up in the change logs yourself. Making their fatigue reduce their accuracy/ROF also has nothing to do with the FSM. The required changes are not as drastic as you're making them out to be.

You don't? Take for example the difficulty to fire a rifle. If concessions (in detriment) of realism were not made, by the time you could effectibly shot your rifle towards the AI, you would have 20 shots coming your way. Flashpoint didn't have much recoil, then Arma 1 introduced lots of it, then Arma 2 reduce the heck out of it, and it was better gameplay. Then Arma 3 introduced it again (plus weapon sway) in a way that you practicaly can't use the standing stance to shoot the AI (because they don't get suppressed by just poping shots at them), so every simulation you add, has the potential to restrict the platform.

Perhaps we have a different definition of what restricting the platform means. You seem to think I'm trying to say that any amount of realism is good for the game. Of course it isn't. But making it harder to shoot my gun doesn't restrict the options I have in the game - it just makes it harder. Requiring me to consider my actions and choices more carefully is not a restriction of the platform, it is an enhancement in that it requires me to explore more of the platform, to leave my comfort zone where 1 strategy is always going to work. Running straight toward an objective carrying everything I need and then stopping to shoot as soon as I see bad guys is that 1 strategy that would always work without significant fatigue effects and sway. I wouldn't have to worry about carrying that satchel charge or bringing a machinegun into an urban environment. If you want to call it a restriction of the platform that this arcade strategy no longer works very well, so be it. I call it the game forcing me to utilize its strengths. Making tactical decisions, exploring more of the platform in this way.

Edited July 1, 2014 by vegeta897

[Smurf 12]

Hm, suffice to say, we consider Sway and Inertia to be two 'sub-components' of Weapon Handling, and work related to improving it further is part of Marksman DLC's feature set.

Best,

RiE

That's enough for now :)

Man I really need to put my $h!t together and buy a decent PC to play this but yesterday I just blew up my power supply. Great.

Damn Arma vice.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes, sorry about that!

Features related to animations carry the risk of unexpected delays, and - given that it's such a core mechanic - we wanted to ensure that even the first dev-branch release is in the right condition.

Basically, Inertia and Weapon Sway are closely related but separable. What you see in dev misses any of the inertia experimentation. Radko is poised to pen another splendid OPREP on the subject soonâ„¢.

Best,

RiE

Good News, I was surprised that Inertia wasn´t mentioned at all in the latest OPREP.

[tpw 2313]

I would really love to know what the BIS inertia implementation is going to affect: increased sway with heavier weapons; reduced turning speed with heavier weapons; recoil; acceleration/deceleration when moving; etc.

[Brisse 78]

The way I interperated it: It reduces turning speed, but unlike Arma2 it affects only the weapon, not your vision. No negative mouse accelleration or anything like that, but the muzzle will need some time to go back to center if you do a quick turn.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Good News, I was surprised that Inertia wasn´t mentioned at all in the latest OPREP.

It was mentioned. As in ,will not be in the release.

[NoPOW 59]

I think the optics lack some consistency:

When looking through an ARCO the background is fixed and the scope behaves like a flat sprite, while using an SOS the scope stays centered and the background moves... Using the ARCO with aiming deadzone enabled feels just wonky...

EDIT: Looking through the holosight is more accurate and less prone to sway than the main optics... Seems wrong to me.

Edited July 3, 2014 by NoPOW

[Bouben 3]

What about the slowmo animations when tired? Do devs plan to improve it or keep it as it is now? I am sorry but currently it looks and feels absolutely awful. I am worried that it is impossible to improve it without changing animations for tired state. I would be glad if someone proved me wrong.

[haleks 8206]

@NoPow : Not sure this is the best place to report it, but yeah it is an odd feature. Nonetheless, I could deal with it if it was better implemented.

[froggyluv 2130]

What about the slowmo animations when tired? Do devs plan to improve it or keep it as it is now? I am sorry but currently it looks and feels absolutely awful. I am worried that it is impossible to improve it without changing animations for tired state. I would be glad if someone proved me wrong.

Yes this please. Just set that in house animation camera focused on the office beer fridge and 'mocap the skulking Dev'.

[-Coulum- 35]

Looking through the holosight is more accurate and less prone to sway than the main optics... Seems wrong to me.

This is untrue. The physical sway for both are the same. Its just that the magnified optics lets you see that sway in much more detail. It essentially magnifies the sway. This happens in real life as well. You might think your holding the rifle relatively steady when using ironsights, but when you use a scope your shakiness becomes all that more apparent.

I do dislike how they are mixing 2d and 3d scopes though.

Yes this please. Just set that in house animation camera focused on the office beer fridge and 'mocap the skulking Dev'.

Hehehe. Personally I don't have any complaints about the slow mo running. It makes me feel tired.

[vegeta897 13]

Perhaps some slight randomized jitter could be added in real-time to some of the bones in the extremeties, in addition to the slowed animations? No idea how possible this is, but with the dynamic reactions to getting shot, it seems within the realm.

[Brisse 78]

This is untrue. The physical sway for both are the same. Its just that the magnified optics lets you see that sway in much more detail. It essentially magnifies the sway. This happens in real life as well. You might think your holding the rifle relatively steady when using ironsights, but when you use a scope your shakiness becomes all that more apparent.

Correct. The sway is not connected to the choise of optic at all. The sway is even there when you are not using the sights. It's always active. :D

[Bouben 3]

Hehehe. Personally I don't have any complaints about the slow mo running. It makes me feel tired.

For me, the slowmo running is tolerable to some point but after 50% fatigue and up it is completely awful. It is like bullet time. It feels so wrong and unnatural. Not to mention cheap.

[Tzukasa 10]

I read through everything you typed up in the OPREP page about this and I'm loving it! It sounds Amazing!

The one thing I would like to mention and see added though, is that for newer players like myself it would be incredibly useful for you devs to add in a small UI element like an icon or bar that showed when you're getting fatigued and out of breath/back in breath, so new players can get the hang of it quicker/easier. This would be a HUGE boost to initial accessibility for the game, as figuring out how to judge those things is where I really suffer still and I'm sure other newer players do to! And for those vets that think it would spoil things and make it too easy for them that's simple, just make it a locked out option thingy for the higher difficulties and only enable it for the lower ones like how the screen shake option and others work!

Anyway, keep up the great work devs! Everything you're doing with this Bootcamp Update sounds simply amazing and is above and beyond the sort of support almost any other devs would give their game aside from a notable few like Stardock, CDProjektRed ect! Thank you for Actually caring about your product and giving a damn, so few do anymore!

[Brisse 78]

Tzukasa: There is already a bar like that. It's only available in the VR world though IIRC.

[Variable 322]

The one thing I would like to mention and see added though, is that for newer players like myself it would be incredibly useful for you devs to add in a small UI element like an icon or bar that showed when you're getting fatigued and out of breath/back in breath, so new players can get the hang of it quicker/easier.

I think this is a bad idea. You can already hear yourself panting, you don't need another artificial graphical aid.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

I think this is a bad idea. You can already hear yourself panting, you don't need another artificial graphical aid.

Agreed. I find new players best learn the ropes from playing with other players. Dumbing down the game so a new player can jump right in and find the game easy is a bad move. People love about arma is the difficulty.

Dayz the main pillers of the game were it was hardcore. You die , you are dead, you stay dead. Your character gone and all his weapons and items., making players more attached to their characters. Less likely to take stupid risks. And if they did there were real in game consequences.

If anything arma needs to be more hardcore . Start ups procedures for vehicles like planes and helis .so it takes 20 seconds before you can get going. Adds tensions. And an added appreciation for the assets . You are less likely to fly stupid and more likely to be more tactical.

[seba1976 98]

Agreed. I find new players best learn the ropes from playing with other players. Dumbing down the game so a new player can jump right in and find the game easy is a bad move. People love about arma is the difficulty.

Dayz the main pillers of the game were it was hardcore. You die , you are dead, you stay dead. Your character gone and all his weapons and items., making players more attached to their characters. Less likely to take stupid risks. And if they did there were real in game consequences.

If anything arma needs to be more hardcore . Start ups procedures for vehicles like planes and helis .so it takes 20 seconds before you can get going. Adds tensions. And an added appreciation for the assets . You are less likely to fly stupid and more likely to be more tactical.

PvP POV detected :).