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Hi guys,

as you could notice in development branch change log, certain fixes and improvements were done regarding the discussed fatigue mechanics. Great many of them, and even those too trivial to be announced in particular (mostly those regarding some too slow animations) are based upon your valuable feedback so thank you very much for it ! As the work still continues, you may expect future changes and tweaks to come and to be announced here or there. Feel free to further discuss the issue and also your desires and needs. Despite we cannot deliver everything instantly, processing it helps us to realize the overall aggregate game play feelings and expectations about this feature and thus helps us to plan and optimize it's further development.

To disprove certain misconceptions that arises in discussion: Animation speed slow down always affects the actual "moving" speed alike by the same degree. It looks better this way than to slow down animations and speeds disproportionately.

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Would it be possible to throw in an adrenaline factor into fatigue. Because while it it realistic, adrenaline is a huge factor in combat. It would make fatigue seem a lot more realistic.

A great idea! Let's look at this for V2.0 though and get the overall fatigue nailed first (which is looking bloody good).

Someone mentioned a heartbeat sound effect earlier in the thread. I think this would work well for Adrenaline rush as anyone who has ever experienced this will know, your heart beats crazy when your adrenaline shoots up and your breathing actually shallows.

I don't know what effect this has on aiming though.

---------- Post added at 12:48 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------

Man, this is soo exploitable. I allready imagine certain people, having to travel a lot, shoot at each other to boost their adrenaline.:uzi::hyper:

so applies to enemy fire only. problem solved.

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Adrenaline would be cool but I don't think it should be implemented at this point because it should effect so much more than just fatigue. An adrenaline system is a whole other project in its self and I think we should just focus on getting the fatigue one perfect first.

My next suggestion for fatigue:

Earlier Sway Penalties - Right now it seems like you have to tire yourself quite a bit before sway effects are noticeable. In reality aiming is a very precise thing and you do not need to be fully exhausted to take that precision away. You just need to be breathing heavy with a bit of lactic acid in the muscles. Thus Aiming penalties (sway) should be more severe quicker to represent this in game. Of course it should not last long, just until you catch your breath - so a few sprints from cover to cover will make it hard to shoot for 10 seconds or so and then your all good again. Thoughts?

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My thoughs are that aiming is generaly fine like it is right now.

I remember in the early alpha when everyone was complaining that is was impossible to hit anything even at close range.

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Some way to model adrenaline in game would be great. Also some way to turn off or lower fatigue effects for mission makers who feel that it would not be beneficial to gameplay.

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My next suggestion for fatigue:

Earlier Sway Penalties - Right now it seems like you have to tire yourself quite a bit before sway effects are noticeable. In reality aiming is a very precise thing and you do not need to be fully exhausted to take that precision away. You just need to be breathing heavy with a bit of lactic acid in the muscles. Thus Aiming penalties (sway) should be more severe quicker to represent this in game. Of course it should not last long, just until you catch your breath - so a few sprints from cover to cover will make it hard to shoot for 10 seconds or so and then your all good again. Thoughts?

Cool idea.

In fact id go so far as suggesting that after a certain level of high fatigue the weapon being carried goes into a weapon down stance to represent the effect of fatigue on holding the weapon up. This would happen sooner on big and heavier weapons. Logically.

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It shouldn't be "aiming sway penalties" it should be aiming sway factors. We do need adrenaline with all this new fatigue stuff though.

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It shouldn't be "aiming sway penalties" it should be aiming sway factors. We do need adrenaline with all this new fatigue stuff though.

How do you mean?

I am not pushing for increased sway as i think its quite good as is now, I believe your aim should quickly degrade after even sprinting for hundred metres. right now you have to get to around 0.50 fatigue too even notice aiming sway increase but I think you should only need to get to 0.10 or so. Of course it would be easily recovered at such at such low fatigue level.

As I said before adrenaline would be cool and I think its an awesome thing to mod in but at this point I don't think its going to get implemented because it would be as big a project as a fatigue or wounding system if its going to be done properly. Theres alot of work to do it properly. For example you don't just get adrenaline from rounds snapping nearby, you could also get it from simply being near the an enemy or firing your weapon or hearing explosions. And adrenaline doesn't only effect your stamina - it would also play a large part in wounding and reaction to hits. Not to mention that there are a whole host of other things that often accompany an adrenaline rush that may not be an aid in battle but rather a handicap, and implementing one without the other might lead to imbalance. There is just so much that should be done to implement it properly and I would rather not have it at than have it only half working + it is not necessary even with the current fatigue effects IMO.

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How do you mean?

I am not pushing for increased sway as i think its quite good as is now, I believe your aim should quickly degrade after even sprinting for hundred metres. right now you have to get to around 0.50 fatigue too even notice aiming sway increase but I think you should only need to get to 0.10 or so. Of course it would be easily recovered at such at such low fatigue level.

As I said before adrenaline would be cool and I think its an awesome thing to mod in but at this point I don't think its going to get implemented because it would be as big a project as a fatigue or wounding system if its going to be done properly. Theres alot of work to do it properly. For example you don't just get adrenaline from rounds snapping nearby, you could also get it from simply being near the an enemy or firing your weapon or hearing explosions. And adrenaline doesn't only effect your stamina - it would also play a large part in wounding and reaction to hits. Not to mention that there are a whole host of other things that often accompany an adrenaline rush that may not be an aid in battle but rather a handicap, and implementing one without the other might lead to imbalance. There is just so much that should be done to implement it properly and I would rather not have it at than have it only half working + it is not necessary even with the current fatigue effects IMO.

What I ment by saying aiming sway factors is penalties sounds like artificailly added factors. Sway should not be adjusted for gameplay purposes, but rather making it more realistic.

It's not really a big concern but rather just a suggestion on the way it is worded.

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What I ment by saying aiming sway factors is penalties sounds like artificailly added factors. Sway should not be adjusted for gameplay purposes, but rather making it more realistic.

It's not really a big concern but rather just a suggestion on the way it is worded.

Exactly, in realistic concern, the aiming sway current in game is like "I'm" swaying the aim on purpose with a smooth and high range motion.

Especially when you armed with a large magnification optic, its obvious that it doesn't act like how muscle works, which is much more steadier with some flickers/vibrates.

Compares the aiming in Arma2, it have much lesser floats and gives a feeling of "roughness".

I think what fatigue does now is impact aiming sway on increase the speed and floating, instead of mostly making your aim sway going up and down in a certain range, is like you are doing a windmill-style swinging.

My thought about aim sway impact on fatigue

Fatigue should more likely impact on increase the flickering rate instead of smoothed floats to simulate muscle contraction.

I think most of the people do notice when they are in prone stance, sometimes the aim suddenly are not some smooth floating, but a high frequency flickering.

And implied this flickering effect on aim system.(With some improvement, indeed) especially on fatigue aspect, it would be a good start.

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  • Fully fatigued speed of a soldier should vary depending on his load - A fully fatigued guy wearing a tshirt should still be able to move faster than guy armed to the teef. Right now, once you hit fully exhausted, there is now advantage for dressing light but there should be.

Yer this could be rather straightforward to implement.

Create a high base speed for a naked soldier.

Have weight modifiers on backpacks, vests, etc that will decrease the range (relSpeedMin, relSpeedMax) downwards.

You could even go crazy and have the relSpeedMax move closer towards relSpeedMin if the soldier state equals wounded for example

or increase the current relSpeed to simulate adrenaline (everytime you shoot relSpeed ticks up like 0.1) and/or have the relSpeedMax decreasing when you are at relSpeedMin for too long simulating long term fatigue.

Sorry mate, totally disagree with this, we have enough indicators showing fatigue already.

Which indicators? Heavy breathing does not indicate anything besides being out of breath. Hard to effectively ration it.

Edited by defk0n_NL

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Overall looking very good so far, no more One man antitank terminators

waht for anti tank Terminators ?

the problem is you need 3-4 missels for tank :p and no your a not a terminator ! this is ... uhmmmmmm. i have 95 kg in my pathfinder packpack and yes maby a pzf3 to !!!!!!!!!!!! an no im not a 2m men with 120 kg crack

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

and in the training is not a nogo than have all paratroopers a pzf3 or a anti tank weapons on the men - in a szenario with many armor

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waht for anti tank Terminators ?

the problem is you need 3-4 missels for tank :p and no your a not a terminator ! this is ... uhmmmmmm. i have 95 kg in my pathfinder packpack and yes maby a pzf3 to !!!!!!!!!!!! an no im not a 2m men with 120 kg crack

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

and in the training is not a nogo than have all paratroopers a pzf3 or a anti tank weapons on the men - in a szenario with many armor

well said

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Finlay we have motives to carry a 5.56 instead of 7.62 (less damage less penetration less range)

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waht for anti tank Terminators ?

the problem is you need 3-4 missels for tank :p and no your a not a terminator ! this is ... uhmmmmmm. i have 95 kg in my pathfinder packpack and yes maby a pzf3 to !!!!!!!!!!!! an no im not a 2m men with 120 kg crack

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

and in the training is not a nogo than have all paratroopers a pzf3 or a anti tank weapons on the men - in a szenario with many armor

I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you meant to say :raisebrow:

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Hey everyone,

before the release of the next patch the fatigue mechanics will be temporary turned off due to some internal issues which require little more time to solve. But fear not, the fatigue will arrive to you soon after in more polished and enjoyable state even with some more features you asked for. So thank you all again for feedback offered so far and yet to come. We put it all into consideration and will thoroughly evaluate it further.

Thank you.

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Hey everyone,

before the release of the next patch the fatigue mechanics will be temporary turned off due to some internal issues which require little more time to solve. But fear not, the fatigue will arrive to you soon after in more polished and enjoyable state even with some more features you asked for. So thank you all again for feedback offered so far and yet to come. We put it all into consideration and will thoroughly evaluate it further.

Thank you.

Great to hear! Hopefully it comes with some more scripting commands for mods like ACE to go more indepth into fatigue.

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Hey everyone,

before the release of the next patch the fatigue mechanics will be temporary turned off due to some internal issues which require little more time to solve. But fear not, the fatigue will arrive to you soon after in more polished and enjoyable state even with some more features you asked for. So thank you all again for feedback offered so far and yet to come. We put it all into consideration and will thoroughly evaluate it further.

Thank you.

Are we talking the next dev branch patch or the next stable patch? Also, what can we expect as far as actual "features" and not mil-spergy minutiae?

EDIT: When re-enabled, what can we expect as big changes from the last build that had fatigue mechanics enabled?

Edited by Chortles

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Hey everyone,

before the release of the next patch the fatigue mechanics will be temporary turned off due to some internal issues which require little more time to solve. But fear not, the fatigue will arrive to you soon after in more polished and enjoyable state even with some more features you asked for. So thank you all again for feedback offered so far and yet to come. We put it all into consideration and will thoroughly evaluate it further.

Thank you.

Does this include going back to the original weapon sway? If it does then :(

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I think the animation slow down effect looks bad. People don't just slow down when they're fatigued in real life, they start to get clumsy, use shorter steps and so on.

The jogging animation is a good example why slow animation doesn't look good.

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Looks fine to me. Sure its not perfect but only if you examine it to much. It serves its purpose and definitely gives me the feeling that my character is tired. Looking at ai I can really tell when they are tired because their run is so dogged and slow. I see an ai moving slowly and my first thought is "wow he's tired", not "wtf he looks like he's moving in slomo". So IMO it does a good enough job.

And I don't think making new animations for every degree of tiredness is an option. Sometimes it looks weird when you examine movements that have a degree of gravity to them (going prone, downfall of each step etc.) but other wise its fine.

Making characters clumsy might be a possibility though. Ever so slightly delayed reaction to input and loss of precise mouse control would all be good in my books though I doubt that is the feelings of the majority.

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Does this include going back to the original weapon sway? If it does then :(
Hence my question about "big changes from the last fatigue build?" After all, the dev's post implies something went so bad under the hood that it was deemed better to just turn off the fatigue mechanics temporarily than to deliver a build with the fatigue mechanics and the problems... wish we knew what those problems were though.
Ever so slightly delayed reaction to input and loss of precise mouse control would all be good in my books though I doubt that is the feelings of the majority.
Thanks to Arma 2 this is verboten, getting away from the sense of this is a big part of why the infantry movement and weapon handling changes were so well received by some members here and outside of these forums.

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Looks fine to me. Sure its not perfect but only if you examine it to much. It serves its purpose and definitely gives me the feeling that my character is tired. Looking at ai I can really tell when they are tired because their run is so dogged and slow. I see an ai moving slowly and my first thought is "wow he's tired", not "wtf he looks like he's moving in slomo". So IMO it does a good enough job.

And I don't think making new animations for every degree of tiredness is an option. Sometimes it looks weird when you examine movements that have a degree of gravity to them (going prone, downfall of each step etc.) but other wise its fine.

Making characters clumsy might be a possibility though. Ever so slightly delayed reaction to input and loss of precise mouse control would all be good in my books though I doubt that is the feelings of the majority.

No no no no. I don't want clumsier actions. Just something purely visual. I'd stop playing this game if my avatar started to trip on things.

I just think that slowing down the animations is a really, really poor way of conveying tiredness. It looks bad and out of place.

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I'd stop playing this game if my avatar started to trip on things.
I'll add that I hopped aboard Arma 3 so quickly because of the more fluid avatar movement... tripping on things reminds me of all the jokes about Arma 2 collision "detection".

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