Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Careful with general statements like that. You have absolutely no way of knowing this. Neither have BI, by the way.

 

So in absence of any hard evidence to that claim, you can only assume.

 

I just check the default settings of the 7-8 most popular missions, RPG, PvP, TvT, COOP, PvE ... most have 'player enableFatigue FALSE; in the init and on respawn. Others have modified incoming fatigue values (see script in sig).

 

You're right, I do make an assumption that the week-to-week public server community is the majority of A3 players, including the players who do both private unit sessions and also use public servers. I may be wrong of course.

[CaptainObvious 95]

As far as I see, all you are proposing are workarounds when that problem doesn't even initially have to exist.

 

The reason I like mods is that that gives me a possibility to sidestep all the "features" BIS introduces.

 

I like OFP/Arma for the tactical shooting part, not the tactical walking part. After all, it's called a First Person Shooter and not a First Person Walker.

 

For me, and many many others, this new system (granted it's not finished yet) is a problem that hasn't and doesn't need to exist, and if it doesn't form into something representing real life, it must be modded out of the game, which I didn't have to do before.

This is getting a little repetitive but I tend to like to be punished (uhhhh kinky) as appropriate for the actions I take in-game.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

I don't like fatigue, be it online or in my own missions. It's the first thing I turn off and it's the biggest reason I leave an MP server.

Because the reality is in most cases, I have to run 2km to AO (Invade & Annex). Now, doing that with fatigue turned on means I go from a 5-10 minute jog to something like 30-45 min.

Before I even get into any action. Why would any sane person do that?

 

If you want real realism, you would have to wait 2-12+ hours after launching of the game before you even get into the menu. Why? Real world deployment isn't instant. You always have to travel some place.

 

Out of a gameplay view, that restriction is not feasible or fun and does not add anything but frustration.

Fatigue is the same, only it has a lesser time constraint as it's side effect.

 

Current fatigue-system (stable-version) flies in the face of realism. If a soldier would get tired after moving 2-300 metres and must have a lie down, every war would be over before the first footsoldier gets to it (slight exaggeration).

 

One of the big problems is that most missions are built on the fact that you CAN jog for eternity and when that no longer is the case, like when the fatigue system was introduced, the missions become tedious because of hours of running, resting, whatever. To get around that, we would have to teleport magically to the AO instead. No one wants that, do they?

How many missions, Single- or multiplayer has vehicles at spawn? Certainly not all of them.

 

If fatigue was not disable-able, we would have redesigned the AOs in I&A :) Far less armored targets, focus on urban combat and shorter AO duration and tighter area. During development for Altis the aim was 45 minute AOs for 30-40 players incl transport and AFKs and trolls... If fatigue was forced, the plan was for 20-30 min AOs, half the number of enemies and armored targets, etc. Gameplay would probably have been better IMO (As would FPS), but then it would have been in the same market as insurgency/patrol ops.

 

Proper use of ground vehicles (motorized and mechanized infantry play) is too hard to manage on a public server.

[Alwarren 2767]

Proper use of ground vehicles (motorized and mechanized infantry play) is too hard to manage on a public server.

Yeah, that's why fatigue can be disabled on such servers. I don't see why everybody has to suffer just because public server players don't know how to cooperate.

[heavygunner 179]

Dsylexci not only thinks that BIS is destroying a good system, he also released a video showing off the gameplay value:

 

 

With the new stamina system he would just have to run away from the enemy, however the old system forced him to stop and therefore opened doors for some awesome firefights.

 

Also, while this is a First person shooter, walking is an important part of combat, this isn't trench warfare anymore. ;)

[Beagle 684]

here is the thing , if i recall correctly , most special forces require soliders to jogg 20km with 40kg packs,

 

And the requirement is to do that in under 3,5 hours and the max weight for equipment is 25kg in the selection phase.

so youhave plenty of time to perform that easily with old Fatigue system.

You do not lug around Battle rifles and Launchers all the time.

There is a reason why Inftantry combat is based around vehicles since the days of WWII.

[andersson 285]

I don't understand why people who don't like fatigue are complaining. They can turn it off and they will be able to turn it off in the future. Even if 90% of the players are turning it off the fatigue/stamina is there and it should be improved, if so only for the remaining 10%.

[rübe 127]

Also, while this is a First person shooter, walking is an important part of combat, this isn't trench warfare anymore. ;)

I'd argue movement - and thereby the position you're shooting from - is way more important than shooting in a "tactical" first person shooter. And this becomes painfully obvious playing in a team/with a group. Or better yet: against them! :o

 

I like OFP/Arma for the tactical shooting part, not the tactical walking part. After all, it's called a First Person Shooter and not a First Person Walker.

With all due respect: there is no such thing as a "tactical shooting part" (okay, maybe suppressive fire, but that's it...).

Tactical stuff is all about movement and your (relative) position (flanking, covering sectors, cross fire, ...). Shooting is the easy part.

 

Dsylexci not only thinks that BIS is destroying a good system, he also released a video showing off the gameplay value

Nice video. :)

But hey, why not give the full quote:

 

I think they're ruining a good system. It will be up to the community (sadly) to have to try to make a system similar to the current version. Of all the changes that have happened to A3 in the last while, this is the only one that's made me really sit back and think - "Wow, are... are they dumbing down Arma? For real? Intentionally?". The new stamina system is an awful idea that should not have happened. I hope it doesn't speak to the future of the series. I hope it's just a fluke mistake, and that they snap to their senses and fix it back to being a meaningful gameplay dynamic.

Amen. B)

[mamasan8 11]

 

With all due respect: there is no such thing as a "tactical shooting part" (okay, maybe suppressive fire, but that's it...).

Tactical stuff is all about movement and your (relative) position (flanking, covering sectors, cross fire, ...). Shooting is the easy part.

There is. Moving into position, being behind some sort of cover. That's the tactical part. Also choosing when to engage and if to engage and over what ranges. That's the shooting part.

[razor6014 35]

as far as i can tell if they added an event handler to drain stamina with running

as well as sprinting , and added penalties for draining all of the stamina , its basicly the old system , no ? 

[ruPal 143]

No, sway logic is different too.

[lordprimate 159]

my two cents.... the current fatigue system is Perfect.... 

 

there is an OLD saying ... OLDER then BIS has been a company.... and it goes something like this...

 

IF ITS NOT BROKE .... DONT FIX IT..!!!!!!  

 

You (BIS) have been refining the fatigue system for over a year now... and so after all that work and refinement... your going to completely change it... it Honestly sounds like a waste of Money... there are a lot of Problems and Real issues that have been on the feedback tracker for years..... but some how a system that has been working for a LONG time is being completely revamped.... sounds like BIS is squandering resources.....

 

 

the current fatigue system and its year+ of fine tuning has worked well for me ... l almost never get fatigued... Those that complain are those players that carry a full carryall backpack , launcher, etx.... and then complain when they cannot move with out getting tired... im sorry their just foolish and idiotic, and there is no need to cater to those "TYPE" of people.. 

 

I have said what i had to say. 

 

good day.. love ya... (puts on flame suit) ...( gets ready for insertion)    ,.....

[A. Lietuvis 13]

I don't like fatigue, be it online or in my own missions. It's the first thing I turn off and it's the biggest reason I leave an MP server.

Because the reality is in most cases, I have to run 2km to AO (Invade & Annex). Now, doing that with fatigue turned on means I go from a 5-10 minute jog to something like 30-45 min.

Before I even get into any action. Why would any sane person do that?

 

 

But that is not the problem with the fatigue system - it's problem with you and your team not being able to manage logistics properly. If helos have to land 2  clicks from AO because command can't get an IFV in there to take care of AA or some spotters to arty the AA, it's your and your teams fault, not fatigue system's.

[A. Lietuvis 13]

here is the thing , if i recall correctly , most special forces require soliders to jogg 20km with 40kg packs,

granted they look like hell after it but its been done , the current fatigue system does that after 2 km,

if it was 10km id be fine with it, but it isn't.

 

I tried the new system , the only issue i see is when you use up all stamina , i feel the more you are in the red the more severe the penalty should be,

i mean IRL you would start to expirience pain , slowing down animations sounded like a good idea , but i feel , oh how do i sum this up , well its sort of like a gaus bell curve the pain , you start normal , then slowly the pain rises , but as you persist you get used to it and you just carry on , and it doesent bother you as much.

 

i feel the new system should reflect that.

 

also when you stop the longer you where in the red you should expirience appropriate pain levels. 

 

The problem is that, in game if you run 10 clicks, you usually end up on the other side of the island. IRL AOs are much larger, the amount of forces is bigger and everyone has much much more time. ArmA has to downscale so that it doesn't take forever, but that includes downscaling the fatigue system aswell.

[gippo 38]

Honestly I don't have a problem with the current fatigue system (stable branch). I think the weapon resting and deployment made it pretty acceptable.

Tried the current one, not sure how it affects the actual gameplay, but to be honest, instead of reworking the whole system, adding different fatigue difficulty levels would've been a good solution.

What I'm still concerned about that the player can still rotate with unlimited speed while being in prone positions. That is just silly, and should be addressed.

[andersson 285]

I had a an old OFP player/friend join in on an A3 session last night and he hadn't played this series since OFP so it must be close to 10 years ago? When he fell behind us and slowly trotted to our vehicle he said with a laugh "I shouldn't have packed my big backpack full of ammo, I need to dump some in the truck." Nobody ever told or explained to him about the fatigue system. It was natural and obvious what he had done and what he needed to do, just like in RL. This was with stable 1.52.

 

I fully concur with Lordprimates post. BIS, please put your effort into old obvious bugs instead of creating work fixing something that wasn't broken (I would love to be able to turn my avatar in tactical pace while aiming.....)

 

my two cents.... the current fatigue system is Perfect.... 

 

there is an OLD saying ... OLDER then BIS has been a company.... and it goes something like this...

 

IF ITS NOT BROKE .... DONT FIX IT..!!!!!!  

 

You (BIS) have been refining the fatigue system for over a year now... and so after all that work and refinement... your going to completely change it... it Honestly sounds like a waste of Money... there are a lot of Problems and Real issues that have been on the feedback tracker for years..... but some how a system that has been working for a LONG time is being completely revamped.... sounds like BIS is squandering resources.....

 

 

the current fatigue system and its year+ of fine tuning has worked well for me ... l almost never get fatigued... Those that complain are those players that carry a full carryall backpack , launcher, etx.... and then complain when they cannot move with out getting tired... im sorry their just foolish and idiotic, and there is no need to cater to those "TYPE" of people.. 

 

I have said what i had to say. 

 

good day.. love ya... (puts on flame suit) ...( gets ready for insertion)    ,.....

[Roddis 27]

I love to play two kind of MP at A3. 

I love to play "solo" style, like KOTH and Battle Royale. I play KOTH to improve my very poor aim and engage skills.

I play Battle Royale cause I love the concept. 

 

Now, obviously, i would hate if fatigue was on into a Battle Royale round. The concept want i run like insensitively around to find a gun and to stay in a circle, firing all other (normally i get killed just landing :)). It would be so stupid and impossible to play having a fatigue system on.

 

But, wait a moment...server admin can off or tune fatigue system and they do that!

 

Later, i love to play in a Squad. They make a scenario and we play. In this case i love my commanders to think a couple of things like... How to get to the spot, where deploy my boys, who going to or how to get back at the end and like so. In this case i love, and i want keep, to have to think (and my commander) the fact that i must manage my stamina level. 

 

Now, i don't know how much a skilled soldier IRL can jog or sprint, but i think he can't do jogging KMs with KLs on shoulders. I don't think he can go up an hill without get exhausted.

Being Arma 3 a simulator, or anyway something different an FPS, i want it to take care of this things.  

 

By now i think current fatigue system reflect better what I imagine a soldier can do IRL. But if anyone really can persuade me that he can jog 2KMs, sprinting several time inside with small break, with an AT on shoulder then aim around instantly and take an enemy without problem then ok (it is not an incitement, really i can't know, maybe is possible).

 

Elsewhere, if the really reason for this strange and drastic change of mind on fatigue system is another (i have heard of Ai problem), than please explain to this incredibly and mature community.  

 

Sorry for my english.

 

 

 

 

[Beagle 684]

I love to play two kind of MP at A3. 

I love to play "solo" style, like KOTH and Battle Royale. I play KOTH to improve my very poor aim and engage skills.

I play Battle Royale cause I love the concept. 

 

Now, obviously, i would hate if fatigue was on into a Battle Royale round. The concept want i run like insensitively around to find a gun and to stay in a circle, firing all other (normally i get killed just landing :)). It would be so stupid and impossible to play having a fatigue system on.

 

But, wait a moment...server admin can off or tune fatigue system and they do that!

 

Later, i love to play in a Squad. They make a scenario and we play. In this case i love my commanders to think a couple of things like... How to get to the spot, where deploy my boys, who going to or how to get back at the end and like so. In this case i love, and i want keep, to have to think (and my commander) the fact that i must manage my stamina level. 

 

Now, i don't know how much a skilled soldier IRL can jog or sprint, but i think he can't do jogging KMs with KLs on shoulders. I don't think he can go up an hill without get exhausted.

Being Arma 3 a simulator, or anyway something different an FPS, i want it to take care of this things.  

 

By now i think current fatigue system reflect better what I imagine a soldier can do IRL. But if anyone really can persuade me that he can jog 2KMs, sprinting several time inside with small break, with an AT on shoulder then aim around instantly and take an enemy without problem then ok (it is not an incitement, really i can't know, maybe is possible).

 

Elsewhere, if the really reason for this strange and drastic change of mind on fatigue system is another (i have heard of Ai problem), than please explain to this incredibly and mature community.  

 

Sorry for my english.

Despite what some people seem to believe the average soldier can't do anything more or less than a person that does 4h athletic training a week.

In my service time I was fit enough to be selected for a international recon forces competion and all I can say is that our performances were far from superhuman, not even close to that of professional athlets. I still don't get what makes people believe soldiers to be anythin special (as long as they dont take amphetamies regularly, something that has become a fact recently again) All our physical trainig was about endurance not sprinting (you can't really spring with full gear, it comes down to a jog after just 25 meters) The pace you will see is always walking and anything more then 6km an hour is considered unpracticable.

There is that saying that a group is only as fast as the slowest member. Thats the main job of the suad leader, slowing the group if the slowest meber does fasll back. maybe players should coonsider that simple procedure instead of demanding to be able to run around all the time.

[Kryptongame 14]

Despite what some people seem to believe the average soldier can't do anything more or less than a person that does 4h athletic training a week.

In my service time I was fit enough to be selected for a international recon forces competion and all I can say is that our performances were far from superhuman, not even close to that of professional athlets. I still don't get what makes people believe soldiers to be anythin special (as long as they dont take amphetamies regularly, something that has become a fact recently again) All our physical trainig was about endurance not sprinting (you can't really spring with full gear, it comes down to a jog after just 25 meters) The pace you will see is always walking and anything more then 6km an hour is considered unpracticable.

There is that saying that a group is only as fast as the slowest member. Thats the main job of the suad leader, slowing the group if the slowest meber does fasll back. maybe players should coonsider that simple procedure instead of demanding to be able to run around all the time.

Just remember many of us consider this as a casual/fun game rather than a full blown realism simulator.

[Kryptongame 14]

To me, the dev branch stamina system is way too overboard. I'm fatigued with an mk18 and 13 mags, no backpack in under a minute, and have to lay down for another minute just to stabilize aim. That is with the new stamina.

[razor6014 35]

I like the display of stamina and how its influenced with different loads ,

most agree there should be more of a incentive not to sprint like a maniac.

As for aiming its ok considering the stances , i still hate the fact there are no

pure marksmanship stances that you can enter with C in standing and kneeling and trade of mobility for stability

[Kryptongame 14]

I like the display of stamina and how its influenced with different loads ,

most agree there should be more of a incentive not to sprint like a maniac.

As for aiming its ok considering the stances , i still hate the fact there are no

pure marksmanship stances that you can enter with C in standing and kneeling and trade of mobility for stability

Not sure why bohemia said it would be more freeing if it's in fact much more restricting than before?

[Roach_ 52]

Not sure why bohemia said it would be more freeing if it's in fact much more restricting than before?

 

Because you can still jog everywhere.

[razor6014 35]

guys its iterative development , not everything is implemented 

at least thats the feeling i get 

[Kryptongame 14]

Because you can still jog everywhere.

I suppose I never recognized you couldn't jog everywhere already? I'll have to check. Also, it's impossible to shoot when fully fatigued for around 30 seconds or a minute for me. That's a long time to lay down as a sitting duck.