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progamer

No more learning or skill required in new games?

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I keep seeing games focus less and less on proper tactics/strategy and more on simply run, shoot, use reflexes, keep running. What happened to the games where you didn't sprint but for 5 seconds at a time and only to cross streets, and two bullets could end you? It seems like ArmA is the last of these...

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I had my sisters 10 year old son try AvsP gold edition, which is one of my all time favorites as it's so gritty and hard. He didn't like it as he never managed to get through the first level, and he is a "gamer". My sister told me that todays kids are not used to get any kind of real challenge out of games, like actually have to fight for ones survival without any feedback that your doing good. We are used to "beat the game", they are used to get instant gratifications.
Admittedly one of the things I find funny about this train of thought about dismissing "todays kids" is the fact that DayZ took off because its sheer brutality (relative to mainstream shooters, not to Arma) made it stand out that much more, not because of zombies, and because there was a good bit of a degree of learning at first... even if that ended up being short-lived once a lot of the early-goers took to posting their findings on YouTube for others to watch before hopping in-game. Where do you think a bunch of players learned to use mil dot reticles from? :p
And then at the end I say "and firefights usually take place over hundreds of meters, and you die with a single shot so you really need to work together to get the objectives!" and they are like "Oh.". Every sign of interest fades from their face immediately, because in their head they pictured themselves going full-on Rambo with all that stuff, and using ricochets to tacticoolly kill enemies around corners, instead of them using it to support others, and it turns out you can't run at the enemy and poke their eye out with your tactical knife, and making kills takes skill and time to do.
Sounds like they know what they're playing video games for, and it sure ain't for a challenge ("because I already get challenged too much outside of video games, this is my escape"), and they're okay with that. ;)
Now I enjoyed Battlefield 3 because you can do cool stuff there and I appreciate that, but it is never going to be a game that I will play for decades, and BF4 won't be an exception either.
Considering how you said that you never stopped playing OFP: CWC long after BI would have stopped directly making money off of it (as opposed to your willingness to buy sequels), I can't help but think that this is by design on EA's part...

By the way, one of the things about how DayZ stood out because of its "hardcoreness" (even if a lot of that was Arma 2 game mechanics) is that unlike a bunch of you, "todays kids" do compare 'hardcoreness'... between (relatively) contemporary games, not what to them is "retro" stuff... for example, the Battlefield 3/Battlefield 4 fans who sincerely find those to be more tactical or strategic than the current Call of Duty games? They're not thinking as far back as Battlefield 2... but then why would they? Before their time and all that... for them, the current (however run-and-gun arcadey) shooters are the ones to judge between. :p

I'm also left thinking of how Resident Evil did in this console generation. For all those who heap praise onto the earliest games (or "HD remixes" thereof) and maybe Resident Evil 4, many "non-hardcore RE fan" gamers' first experience with the series was none other than Resident Evil 5... see that Destructoid article's anecdote about Resident Evil 6... and I wouldn't be surprised if RE6 was designed with the developers and publishers having that in mind.

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I dunno, I think it's easy to see what you wish to see. It's never been any different IMO, there's always been games that are designed to let you win while appearing difficult, and it's no different now. There have also always been games that are genuinely difficult and require a learning curve to be scaled. We can all point to CoD & BF etc, as well as the games that try to cater to the same market, but they're too easy a target, that's their mandate, and of course they're also the best sellers.

Have some games actively become less complex to play? Of course, look at the Elder Scrolls series. But you could argue that, counter-intuitively, increasing technical ability is as much to blame as trying to reach a wider market. Voice acting has replaced procedural dialogue, therefore less complex situations can arise that have not been actively designed. Nobody gets verbal directions in Elder Scrolls anymore because the sheer amouunt of necessary dialogue would inflate the game beyond reason. Therefore everything is spammed to your map, as though you had been told. But that is not so much a generational problem so much as a development decision, blame the game-makers for that one IMO.

It's also easy to somehow blame new generations for the imagined failures, dismissing them as lazy, immediate-gratification junkies. In that, also nothing has changed older generations have always done this.

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I dunno, I think it's easy to see what you wish to see. It's never been any different IMO, there's always been games that are designed to let you win while appearing difficult, and it's no different now. There have also always been games that are genuinely difficult and require a learning curve to be scaled. We can all point to CoD & BF etc, as well as the games that try to cater to the same market, but they're too easy a target, that's their mandate, and of course they're also the best sellers.

Have some games actively become less complex to play? Of course, look at the Elder Scrolls series. But you could argue that, counter-intuitively, increasing technical ability is as much to blame as trying to reach a wider market. Voice acting has replaced procedural dialogue, therefore less complex situations can arise that have not been actively designed. Nobody gets verbal directions in Elder Scrolls anymore because the sheer amouunt of necessary dialogue would inflate the game beyond reason. Therefore everything is spammed to your map, as though you had been told. But that is not so much a generational problem so much as a development decision, blame the game-makers for that one IMO.

It's also easy to somehow blame new generations for the imagined failures, dismissing them as lazy, immediate-gratification junkies. In that, also nothing has changed older generations have always done this.

Take a look at the TW franchise. They really started to actively dumb it down with Rome 2

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Take a look at the TW franchise. They really started to actively dumb it down with Rome 2

Yes that trend was also seen with things like Ghost Recon / Rainbow Six / Silent Hunter .. list goes on. You can watch them "streamline & pander" per release until they morphed away from the point of itself in many ways.

It's also easy to somehow blame new generations for the imagined failures, dismissing them as lazy, immediate-gratification junkies. In that, also nothing has changed older generations have always done this.

The large differences now is technology, so its not the same as old farts moaning to the young, also like I mentioned before if your all bound into technology and then the bar is lowered and that's the "norm" per generation then the expectancy will be set and decrease unless you place options and alternatives early on and more frequent. Everyone's born with complete potential until moulded into parameters .. hate to go there but its a psychology arena too.

Edited by mrcash2009

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No blame should be put on any generation, and yes easy simple games have always existed and fills a purpose.

What I do would like to blame is the "money-decisions"; how to make more money on the expense of actual gameplay. But then again, if it's good business and people also like the games who am I to say anything.. The sad part is when "good games" are dumbed down for a quick buck. I understand why, but it's sad.

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It's one of those topics that's hard to look at objectively; falling into the "back then everything was better" mindset is too easy. Like with anything else - the English language was and is believed to be slowly corrupted by all the new words and ways of speaking since it existed. There are still games with actual gameplay and, sometimes highly complex, challenges. Good examples are the ArmA games, pretty much most of the stuff Paradox Interactive does, Dark Souls and Demon's Souls, and so on.

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the English language was and is believed to be slowly corrupted by all the new words and ways of speaking since it existed.

Nuff' tingz bin said fam, I iz down wit dat, tingz mans spittin' iz bear good, da realness yeh .. mansdem is dench famalam dench! Ya feel meh? For real son, for real, nah meen bruv?

If your UK based, you will know exactly what I mean :) . Sorry couldn't resist.

Edited by mrcash2009

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If you want interesting and mentally stimulating games, look to the indie sector. Games like receiver, the Void, Penumbra, FTL or Antichamber.

Everybody reduces games to the three mainstream titles and ignores everything that doesn't pop up on the major (and largely rubbish) games sites and magazines. There is everything you want out there, just go and find it.

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Penumbra,

Definately look into this if you like amnesia or games of that type..think that one got under my skin more than the dark descent.

Theres also the easy to learn difficult to master aspect..for example a game such as Super Hexagon consists of one rule, avoid the walls, sounds easy but you'd be surprised, oddly addictive too.

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Nuff' tingz bin said fam, I iz down wit dat, tingz mans spittin' iz bear good, da realness yeh .. mansdem is dench famalam dench! Ya feel meh? For real son, for real, nah meen bruv?

If your UK based, you will know exactly what I mean :) . Sorry couldn't resist.

and i just lost my appetite....I really hope your just being cheeky :)

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I think this is too relative, we are spoiled as old gamers as we already have some skills related to games (f.e. reflexes on fps), but there are still some games that need some care to win (see, Wargame, Total War series on MP, etc.)

And it's relative because I could say that Go or Chess are the most hardcore games and then all would be just lame to discuss, but it's not true, as every game need some set of skills, the thing is that modern games uses the same sets of skills of the rest of the games, so if you learn to play call of duty, you also learn to play battlefield at some point, or whatever-fps. For example, most people say that ArmA is the ultimate game in the difficulty aspect (i don't agree), but that's because you need a certain mentality when playing it (and also depends of the mission), rather than having a very high difficulty like for example Doom w/ Plutonia expansion :P.

Edited by NacroxNicke

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Finally left my Arma hole for a bit to let it ripen and jumped into both X3 Terran Conflict and Eve online (just started). I know they're good, quality, and involved games because I can't do sh*t and am constantly watching 'how to' videos all the while proclaiming "WTF?!?"

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