CiA Petition Letter to BIS and DnA's Response

[metalcraze 290]

Also, all of this hub-bub about realism, yet the vanilla Arma2 first aid modules will make it all better? What's realistic about getting dragged and/or revived more than once or at all for that matter? Usually when someone gets shot in the head, they're past the state of unconsciousness. They're dead. There is no revive. If you guys are so hardcore, then lets laugh at any respawn or revive. :) Heck, lets write a script that allows for 95% failed revives. Where only 5 % of the time can a revive be successful, like in real life. That'd be fun eh?

You are probably misinformed since ArmA2 first aid module does not allow revives and headshots are most certainly fatal. What it does is sending soldier into a state of agony when he takes too much damage. During this he can still crawl and fight back but not effectively. Furthermore unless helped by the medic all injuries will remain (like shaky hands and the inability to walk) and he will be healed only to 50% of hp which in ArmA2-grade damage it usually means 1 more shot to die. If he is not helped however he will bleed out and die. All in all it's much more realistic than the current system.

Hope this helps. If you want to discuss this let's do it in the "dumbing down" thread.

[Phantom Six 25]

I find the complaints un-needed since most can be avoided. I mean, if people are such hard core milsim elitist role players, then play the game as such. Don't like that you can carry so much? Then don't. Find yourself "cheating" in this regard? Then you can even write a function to limit the amount you could carry. Don't like the medical system? Take FAKs out & also there's already revive / bleedout / body drag frameworks available. I like realism too, but I know how to work around what I don't like. It's all very trivial.

Pac Man

Not everyone is a hardcore elitist milsim player just because they disagree on subpar medical system, too much weight limit, and other such. We're not going to game the game, but play the game. I have played with CiA many times and its not some ultra hardcore milsim elitism of "YES SERGEANT!!" kind of roleplay stuff. It's the fact that ARMA has always been pretty hardcore and realistic as such and each role has their own role. Say a medic heal, machinegunner can supress, and what not. It doesn't render a role useless. Now say with the ultra loadouts, everyone is rambo now, no one needs an ammo bearer anymore and it lowers the teamwork value. Telling someone to not do this or that just because its "cheating" is ridiculous. Its only logical to take advantage of what you have and psychologically the way a person would think. Revive = you don't die. Drag body is great. The feeling of pulling your comrade out of danger as firefights happen here and there is a great experience. You can feel it in ARMA 2 but not 3, it doesn't have that feel.

Also, all of this hub-bub about realism, yet the vanilla Arma2 first aid modules will make it all better? What's realistic about getting dragged and/or revived more than once or at all for that matter? Usually when someone gets shot in the head, they're past the state of unconsciousness. They're dead. There is no revive. If you guys are so hardcore, then lets laugh at any respawn or revive. :) Heck, lets write a script that allows for 95% failed revives. Where only 5 % of the time can a revive be successful, like in real life. That'd be fun eh?

Pac Man

First Aid Module, if you were shot to the head, you're dead... that's not revive. With revives, you get shot to the head, you can be ressurrect, that's the difference. Don't overexaggerate the 95% fail revive 5% successful revive thing. Say you're unconcious and bleeding if this was ACE, patchh them up, stop the bleeding, ease the pain.

Why are you so against the First Aid Module. It's a module so its optional anways. You don't have to enable it if you don't want to. The First Aid Module was a better system than the current system, so why remove something that works. It was there in the past, so why is it cut now I question you.

[Pac Man 10]

You are probably misinformed since ArmA2 first aid module does not allow revives and headshots are most certainly fatal. What it does is sending soldier into a state of agony when he takes too much damage. During this he can still crawl and fight back but not effectively. Furthermore unless helped by the medic all injuries will remain (like shaky hands and the inability to walk) and he will be healed only to 50% of hp which in ArmA2-grade damage it usually means 1 more shot to die. If he is not helped however he will bleed out and die. All in all it's much more realistic than the current system.

Hope this helps. If you want to discuss this let's do it in the "dumbing down" thread.

Oh okay. I've never played with any sort of revive or respawn in regards to coops or Sp...

Edit: wait I did play evolution once back in Arma1. That had respawn.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Pac Man

[bad benson 1733]

...

posts like this make it really hard to discuss gameplay in an objective way.

sorry but you missed the point entirely. if you want to make general statements about all the people that don't like the "new medical system" then you should read up on the points that have been made. and your statement about people being afraid of others enjoying the game is just plain accusation and a bad attempt at projecting some bad intentions on people to make their arguments look weak or make their motivation look questionable.

i won't repeat everything that has been said about revive and in favour of it or what is problematic about FAKs especially in relation to the medic role since you seem to have read some stuff you loosely refer to. you're trying to address a whole bunch of stuff with your post but there's nothing new in there or anything that would be a good argument against why people want a better med system in the core game.

"use mods you elitist milsim role players. it's so easy to script it. just remove it. duh". it's about the core game for obvious reasons. and it's not always about realism. it's about gameplay. DNA's response clearly states that they had to add what we have now as a compromise and the configs show the same. it's not new versus old system. it's better more complex and interesting versus dumbed down placeholder. it's also not about revive vs magical FAKs. so yea. i don't see you bringing up any points why the system you prefer is so awesome and well thought out. at least make an effort if you try to argue a case. but i guess that's not really what your post is about.

sidenote: with the arma 2 med module headshots were deadly.

EDIT: sorry missed some posts...seems like you have been "informed" already. oh well

Edited September 26, 2013 by Bad Benson

[RushHour 11]

What i understood from the response was "the sim guys left the building so we decided to create more of a gamish game instead of aiming for a simulator", something which they have advertised with older titles from the start.

[Tonci87 163]

I can´t believe the ammount of BS in this Thread.

Are people really getting angry because the folks at CiA dared to call this a community letter without asking every one?

Be gratefull that actually someone took the time to write a constructive letter. It can only be for the better.

If you feel that your opinions are not represented in this letter then don´t dare to bitch but sit down and write your own instead.

very entertaining thread. shows exactly what's wrong with this forum, actually all game forums, actually the world :p.

Yep.[/Quote]

I agree.

[DnA 5018]

The response to the response to the letter is very encouraging to see :) I realize I did not go into a lot of specifics, but rather focused on first clarifying a bit of the process. Hopefully myself and team members responsible for the various parts of design, can discuss those parts and their continued development in a similar manner going forwards.

[Variable 322]

I realize I did not go into a lot of specifics, but rather focused on first clarifying a bit of the process. Hopefully myself and team members responsible for the various parts of design, can discuss those parts and their continued development in a similar manner going forwards.

That's great! We would like to know more about the plans regarding some of the raised issues. Let me specify:

1. Medical system - as you wrote another combat medicine system was on the drawing board, but never saw light. Is work still being made on it? Is there still a chance we will see a more complex medical system in the game?

2. Movement and lack of inertia - Are there any intentions to introduce some limitations on un-human like accelerations and effects of weight on movement?

3. MGs vs. rifles vs. SMGs - Is there going to be any downside for using MGs in close quarter combat?

Thank you again for communicating like that, it means the world to us.

[smokedog3para 365]

Good to see you guys responding rather than burying your heads in the sand and ignoring the problems, it takes a big man to admit when you get it wrong and are prepared to listen and act on it, respect for that bi devs

[rfxcasey 1]

Believe me, most of the issues (opinions varying greatly) will get sorted in time, but no one is giving it any time. Seems like there are many placeholders in the sim just to get it out to the public. Any issues I saw, I knew, from experience and common sense, would get resolved, added, whatever. I dont' think they've gotten anything "wrong" the sim is still in development for God sake. Though, Arma 2 is not exactly the best example of this in practice. You want to voice concerns, no problems but what I find both funny and pathetic as hell is that people get so scared and upset that they feel the need to petition BIS at this early stage of the game. I mean, a petition? REALLY??? "Like OMG they ruined my beloved Arma!!!" Freaking chillax, the damn thing isn't even finished yet. What a bunch of whiny babes, that's what I really find pathetic, so keep your freaking diaper on and be freaking patient. Most of all "DON'T PANIC!" God almighty you'd think BIS was trying to take away your 2nd amendment rights. Nuff said. Dropping the mic and walking away.......

Edited September 26, 2013 by rfxcasey

[instagoat 133]

I don't think it would've been sensible by CiA to try and contact everyone and their pony. They tried getting a cut from some of the more involved community members, people who have been known to contribute a lot and many of whom are staples in the community as it stands today.

Also, the letter was by far not as whiny and pessimistic as many threads on here. That it touched a nerve is evidenced by the fact that it got a reply.

A good reply too, which makes me hopeful for the future development of Arma, despite of the problems with the current game. Which, again, are by far not as drastic as those we had with Arma 2 or Armed Assault when they were released.

[Alwarren 2765]

I don't think it would've been sensible by CiA to try and contact everyone and their pony. They tried getting a cut from some of the more involved community members, people who have been known to contribute a lot and many of whom are staples in the community as it stands today.

It was also the timeframe. We kept an eye on development during Alpha, and when Beta started and things we felt were important were still not addressed, we started to write the letter. It took a while, we didn't want an overwhelmingly long letter that went into every little detail (these hardly ever get read) nor did we want to miss some important point, so we worked on it quite a while. But knowing that major changes don't come overnight, we tried to get it off before release.

Also, the letter was by far not as whiny and pessimistic as many threads on here. That it touched a nerve is evidenced by the fact that it got a reply.

I think one thing that people always overlook is that if you are critical about certain aspects of the game, it doesn't mean you hate the game, the people behind it, or want to murder their pets. Yes, I am criticizing a lot, pointing out things I feel should have been handled differently. There are enough aspects of the game I like, and plainly, I wouldn't bother to try and give this kind of feedback if I hated the game - I would just ignore it and stick to Arma 2. But I do want this game to be great, and so I continue to point out what things I think are wrong.

I also try to argue as to why I think this and that feature is an issue. For example, the movement thing, I find it is an issue that a soldier with a Carryall and Launcher carrying a Machine Gun would have the same CQB mobility as a soldier without backpack or launcher carrying an SMG. In both cases you can side-strafe through a doorframe, and I think that makes SMG's (or any short weapon, for the matter) completely unnecessary. I don't just say "movement sucks", that would be whining indeed.

The really sad part is that it seems impossible to argue a point without getting insults for it. A decent discussion doesn't seem to be possible anymore. Sometimes I wish there was a possibility to make a thread invite-only :)

A good reply too, which makes me hopeful for the future development of Arma, despite of the problems with the current game. Which, again, are by far not as drastic as those we had with Arma 2 or Armed Assault when they were released.

Agreed, I am happy DnA took the time to read and even reply. With most companies, it wouldn't have gotten near the project lead, only a handful of companies work like this, and it is a credit to BIS that they continue to listen to their fans.

[tortuosit 485]

Good letter, good answer, but of course you could expect Joris-Jan van ‘t Land can't go into too much detail.

I think a basic part of the problem indeed is the release date. I'm sure if they would distribute only by themselves and not on Steam, we would see Arma III in 2014. And not the first half of 2014.

I think it is simply important to again and again remind BIS that realism and simulation is most important for us.

The personal ego postings here in this thread is annoying spam, really.

Best news in this thread (Offtopic) for me is: @SmokeDog3PARA gives us Sangin for A3. *****yyyyyyeesss thx thx tbhx*****

http://i43.tinypic.com/2dh5wgp.png (139 kB)

Edited September 26, 2013 by tortuosit

[james2464 176]

Great letter, and keep up the great work Bohemia! You've always done great work.

Myself and the PR team are having a lot of fun modding Arma 3 already ;)

[papanowel 120]

Good letter from Cia's member and other.

You seems to have the same concern as many team.

I also thank you DnA for his answer to it.

[FallujahMedic -FM- 866]

First off, I would like to thank DnA for taking the time to acknowledge and respond to the letter.

I am not a member of CiA or of any other clan/squad. I haven't produced high quality terrains/models/scripts used and enjoyed by thousands of players. What I have done is lent my voice (literally and figuratively) to those projects that I'm interested in (USN, USMC, Medicine, etc.). I feel that in this way, I have been able to give back to to BI and the community, some of the enjoyment that I have received over the years.

When I was informed about the letter, I was initially unsure as to whether I would lend my support to it. I didn't want to “rock the boatâ€, but at the same time didn't want to be one of those who complain about something, yet never do anything about it. After reading and re-reading the letter, I was convinced that the signatories shared my concern with A3, if nothing else.

Whether it matters to anyone or not, I believe that DnA is being as honest and open as he possibly can given not only the current state of A3, but also within his role and position at BI. Sure, his reply may not have been exactly full of specifics, but it did impart a sense of empathy and of renewed helmsman-ship by the Devs. This is not intended as a statement of fact, but just my personal opinion.

Over the years I have been very critical of BI and have not always thought things through before posting. Some things were either childish, poorly worded, ill informed or just plain wrong. I'd like to think that I have matured over the years and that this has made me a better community member and player. Does this really matter, probably not, but I see it as part apology and part re-dedication of my efforts towards all things Arma.

Finally, as I don't/can't/won't speak for everybody, I will only speak for myself. I think the letter to BI had the intended effect. It didn't solve global warming nor create world peace, but what it did do was gain the attention of the developers. I think taking ownership of issues will in the end help improve A3. So, go forth, play the game, enjoy it, yell at the screen, rage quit, do whatever it is that you do, but do it in such a way that when you experience a problem, you can report it in an informed manner. Take notes, take screen shots, keep .rpts. Don't let a problem not be addressed because it couldn't be properly explained or lacked enough detail.

Thanks!

“FM†(FallujahMedic)

[jedra 11]

I thought the letter from CiA was both polite and a valid way of expressing a group's concerns and it was great to see that it was taken seriously by the quality of the reply from DnA.

Everyone has their opinions about what is right and what is wrong with Arma 3 - heck, people are still having that discussion about Arma 2 after all this time. I think that one of the great things about the Arma series is that each game is a mini evolution and over time it changes and morphs (albeit in relatively small amounts). At least by adding their opinion and creating a discussion around it, CiA have set in motion the beginnings of this process.

Life has got in the way this past six months and I didn't feel qualified to sign the letter when it was first sent to me but having played with CiA, I doubt that their concerns were unrealistic or reactionary - they are a great bunch of guys and have supported the Arma franchise well over the years.

With some of the replies here though, I thought I has logged on to the Steam forums by mistake!

[andersson 285]

That's great! We would like to know more about the plans regarding some of the raised issues. Let me specify:

1. Medical system - as you wrote another combat medicine system was on the drawing board, but never saw light. Is work still being made on it? Is there still a chance we will see a more complex medical system in the game?

2. Movement and lack of inertia - Are there any intentions to introduce some limitations on un-human like accelerations and effects of weight on movement?

3. MGs vs. rifles vs. SMGs - Is there going to be any downside for using MGs in close quarter combat?

Thank you again for communicating like that, it means the world to us.

4. Red circle on map - Will we be able to turn it off as it should be a difficulty setting?

Very good letter and I would sign it too if I could.

[-RFP-CHykis 11]

I think bad times start when BIS tried to make 3 projects in one time: ToM, ArmA 3 and DayZ. And now they just can say: oh sorry we can't do all of these things that we promised...:3

Customers: ooooh poor BIS we understand

[ragerh 10]

Very good read with good points. Thank you. I think they said in a organized, clear and nice way, things that allot of us are concerned about. Where do i sign?

[Smurf 12]

4. Red circle on map - Will we be able to turn it off as it should be a difficulty setting?

Very good letter and I would sign it too if I could.

That was removed a while ago.

[maturin 12]

I can't really get behind much of this letter.

Anyone who really wants inertia in their movement is just being masochistic. It's part of what turned people off on ArmA 2 movement, and is a huge annoyance that humans in real life can handle without a second thought. Strap it to an in-game avatar, however, and the game becomes a walking simulator for a drunken velociraptor.

As for weapons no longer colliding with walls, this is a case of no progress rather than retrogression. Does no one remember the ArmA 2 bullshit of not being able to sidestep through doors or navigate hallways? Yes, it made long weapons difficult to handle indoors in theory, but the result was enormously frustrating bullshit, not gameplay. Half of us modded that crap out of the game anyways. Both states of affairs are bad, until we get weapons that lower automatically when colliding with walls.

And again with loadouts and medical systems, it's no progress as opposed to retrogression. According to taste, the situation is a bit worse, but if you call ArmA 2's inventory, encumbrance and medical systems anything other than crap, you are wearing 1000mm RHA rose-colored glasses. The medical system was glitched out the ass, with avatars getting stuck in interminable animation loops, sliding across the battlefield uncontrollably, waiting forever for medics...

In sum, I somewhat share the sentiment of the letter, but for reasons of missed opportunities and lack of progress, rather than backsliding. The game's biggest problem remains the content. While I completely accept that the ArmA 2 release content was exceptional and unrepeatable, BIS has aimed at quality over quantity and hit neither.

And yet, on balance, I expected better from this community, which seems to have been afflicted by acute amnesia about how ArmA 2's release was. And everyone seems to have forgotten all of ArmA 2's amazing new features. The movement and stance stuff itself is worth a new game.

Also DnA, what are these explosive and ballistic improvements? They have never been demonstrated for the community.

Edited September 26, 2013 by maturin

[NeuroFunker 11]

And again with loadouts and medical systems, it's no progress as opposed to retrogression. According to taste, the situation is a bit worse, but if you call ArmA 2's inventory, encumbrance and medical systems anything other than crap, you are wearing 1000mm RHA rose-colored glasses. The medical system was glitched out the ass, with avatars getting stuck in interminable animation loops, sliding across the battlefield uncontrollably, waiting forever for medics...

happens in every arma 3 mission with revive scripts. Geting stuck on the ground after healing, animation loops etc. Typical stuff from arma 2.

[St. Jimmy 272]

I can sign Loadout and Medical parts but not the Movement. Maybe H/LMGs could've some disadvantage but I'm not a fan of getting stuck in houses.

[maturin 12]

happens in every arma 3 mission with revive scripts. Geting stuck on the ground after healing, animation loops etc. Typical stuff from arma 2.

Now find me a revive script that isn't shit, or a good mission that even allows respawns.

I haven't had a single problem with SP healing, whereas that bullshit battlefield clearance module defined the first 10 hours of gameplay in ArmA 2. Pure agony.