Mods and ARMA 3 on the same level as FSX?

[chortles 263]

It won't go further because this entire thread is wholly conjecture. Based on nothing more than imaginings & worse-case scenarios :)

Pretty much no meat, just bones that everyone just luuuuuuuvs to gnaw on...

[Ice9 10]

If some would like to have FSX flight model in ARMA 3, I would say that I want DCS flight model in ARMA 3, more realistic than Take On or FSX.

[maffa 29]

if it's a joke it doesnt make me smile the slightest.

[iceman77 18]

It won't go further because this entire thread is wholly conjecture. Based on nothing more than imaginings & worse-case scenarios :)

Well for me it's not about always looking at the negative side, there are good possibilities too. I'm against it because I ask myself "is it worth the risk?". If it goes badly, then it ruins what we have, which imo has been and is fantastic. If it isn't broke don't fix it type of deal.

[dmarkwick 261]

We can't say, or even guess whether it's worth the risk because we have no idea what "it" is. We have, what, one single sentence made by a senior developer about possible paid user content, and also recently we have the disappointing relationship between BIS and the developers of Iron Front. If I were to guess, I would say that this is the direction we might look.

[gammadust 12]

It won't go further because this entire thread is wholly conjecture. Based on nothing more than imaginings & worse-case scenarios :)

Conjecture and speculation as in a bunch of "what ifs", agreed. What i don't agree with is that such "imaginings & worse-case scenarios" are pointless or unuseful to whoever is designing the implementation. They are not unuseful. This is not a matter of simply speculating and predicting what Maruk meant with those words, or a contest of who might more accurately antecipate what it is and has not been revealed (even if some of us do take that approach). The thing is that whatever the points this discussion brings, in support or not, may inform Bohemia in finding an appropriate plan that validates the goal, or on the contrary, make them reach the conclusion that it is not possible to manage it at all.

I think this is about the 3rd time i make this point, is it so absolutely alien? That the point of the discussion itself wherever it leads is not neutral/inocuous in regards to the actual goal implementation? That speculative thinking is integral to any project? That is the reason projects many times start with brainstorming, even when having a pre-defined starting goal? That we as members of this community should not let ourselves get involved more closely with Bohemia? That it is absurd for them to borrow from our discussion? Or for us to pressure Bohemia in heeding to our discussion?

So i totaly disagree that this thread "won't go further", that is just as likely as this thread "being key in making the goal possible".

Edited October 10, 2013 by gammadust

[dmarkwick 261]

Conjecture and speculation as in a bunch of "what ifs", agreed. What i don't agree with is that such "imaginings & worse-case scenarios" are pointless or unuseful to whoever is designing the implementation. They are not unuseful. This is not a matter of simply speculating and predicting what Maruk meant with those words, or a contest of who might more accurately antecipate what it is and has not been revealed (even if some of us do take that approach). The thing is that whatever the points this discussion brings, in support or not, may inform Bohemia in finding an appropriate plan that validates the goal, or on the contrary, make them reach the conclusion that it is not possible to manage it at all.

I think this is about the 3rd time i make this point, is it so absolutely alien? That the point of the discussion itself wherever it leads is not neutral/inocuous in regards to the actual goal implementation? That speculative thinking is integral to any project? That is the reason projects many times start with brainstorming, even when having a pre-defined starting goal? That we as members of this community should not let ourselves get involved more closely with Bohemia? That it is absurd for them to borrow from our discussion? Or for us to pressure Bohemia in heeding to our discussion?

So i totaly disagree that this thread "won't go further", that is just as likely as this thread "being key in making the goal possible".

Well if you wish to discuss it, then go ahead I won't stop it :) but there are a few of these type of threads that go nowhere because we're all just jabbering to each other about something we know nothing about. And some people are talking as though it *is* happening the way they fear it.... to me it just seems that whatever can be said, has been said, and now we're in the circular thread phase. Which just goes on & on :)

Anyway, as someone will inevitably point out, I don't need to be part of it :)

[gammadust 12]

I have to agree, that indeed, a good deal of stuff has been said (to illustrate it is fact that when trying to add more points to a synthesis, i was keeping elsewhere, it has become more and more difficult to add anything), in a way it is already in Bohemia's hands to do anything about it, if they indeed cared to observe. I am still keeping some interest up in these threads though, another relevant angle might come up. Thread is long already, it is only to expect newcomers (to the discussion) will repeat some points.

[maffa 29]

I guess that if bohemia would have liked something like this to happen they would have just opened their own mod shop and invited the top mod to partecipate.

This didnt happen and could mean basically two things: they dont like the idea, or they dont care. if they dont like the idea, it means trouble for those selling stuff made of BIS code. If they dont care it spells trouble for customers that pay people without much safeguard. And then i restate the trouble for compatibility i made before.

Opening a new market is always a risky thing. Let's see who is entrepeneurish enough to dare the first step and see what happens to him. If push comes to shove, he will get a C&D letter from BIS lawyers, and/or get sued :cool:

[iceman77 18]

Opening a new market is always a risky thing.

For sure. That's my POV.

@DW While we don't know the exact details of what *it* is or could be, we still know in general, it's about paying for addons. Some of us are acting like it *is* already happening, and that's for good reason. Some of us are bracing ourselves for the after effects of this "possible" bad idea.. if it comes to light.

[rogerx 11]

Think it would provide Bohemia Interactive a better path for prosperity, if Bohemia Interactive continues utilizing some sort of open source licensing model for community add-ons.

Pay for add-ons will inevitably lead to a closed sourced structure in order to eventually protect developers' property.

People should be extremely thankful the software publisher even provides an open scripting language. Any open model significantly aids younger people to self-educate themselves, rather than paying a lot of money for education materials. (ie. I remember when compilers cost greater than $100, not including documentation, preventing most from learning Assembly or C programming languages. Nowadays, young kids can learn to program C for almost free, including educational materials. This inevitably leads to more software, or more software debuggers.)

The last time I looked at the Bohemia Interactive licensing for users creating modifications, it was short and to the point. Also, closed source or modification packages for money will likely only depopularize Bohemia Interactive's current game. Pay-for add-ons will also inevitably increase wording within the license, creating a need for developers' to then hire lawyers.

I would keep it the way it is, or even open the scripting language more for correcting the code for easier use by users.

Besides, it's just a game. Many kids do not have the money to continually invest. Most of us older folks only want to play solitaire, but using a sniper rifle in a game. ;-)

There are many successful open source software businesses.

[maffa 29]

And if i may add, we already have an example of how BIS wish to handle this matter in a way. We already have "user content sales", that is Dslyecxi's ArmA 3 Tactics, Techniques, & Procedures Guide. It used to come for free, now it's bundled to premium package, and will come for free but with a few chapters of pretty exoterical topics that will remain premium stuff: and BIs have fully endorsed and put its tag on this product so in a way it's sort more of a BIS merchandise made by Dslyecxi than a Dslyecxi's product sold by BIS. Premium items should be rare non esential collectible like stuff, and certainly D's TTP Guide falls in this category, and since we are talking about D. we are pretty certain about the product quality (and in any case it's a guide, not a piece of software that will have to work and proably conflict with other stuff in your HD) but if that's the case, i think i can assume BIs wishes to hadle this sort of things directly, and probably be the first taking the cash.

[rogerx 11]

You guys need to post or refer to the BIS mod/add-on/scripting license published by BIS. (I can't find the darn thing now.)

It's a tough thing to find and further more, the last I saw it was on their Wiki page. (Wiki is great for frequently changing documents and probably a good thing with licenses.) Going from memory, think it was pretty simple and to the point about not selling or profiting from the mods or add-ons created.

Maybe this license is also embedded within the ARMA 3 Editor documentation. Shrugs. Anyways, be careful of what others' may advise. ;-) ... When in doubt, seek legal advice.

[chortles 263]

@ Maffa: Just to be clear, it's one chapter "of pretty exoterical topics" that's the paid product in TTP3... that, and early access. (No ETA on either the print copy or the paid copy.)

@ rogerx: We're still waiting on the Arma 3 tools for their modding license... (If you haven't already noticed, this wait sucks. :( )

[maffa 29]

@chortless: Yeah, small stuff i can do without in any case and i can wait for. Thought it was clear enough. Nothing "oh-my-gosh-how-can-i-play-without-it", ACRE-class addon stuff

[rogerx 11]

Chortles: Ah. This explains a lot! Everything has it's pros and cons. Anyways,

Again I cite this license is on a Wiki Internet page, and Wiki material is commonly utilized for only documents changing often.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:ArmA:_Official_Tools

"These tools are provided to the community under the terms that allows free use of the tools for any non commercial purposes. Any commercial use of the tools is strictly prohibited without permission from BI."

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/End_User_License_Agreement_for_BI's_Tools

"THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU BY BOHEMIA INTERACTIVE FREE OF CHARGE FOR YOUR PERSONAL USE AND TO CREATE NON-COMMERCIAL GAME CONTENT FOR BOHEMIA INTERACTIVE'S PRODUCTS. ANY COMMERCIAL USE IS PROHIBITED WITHOUT PERMISSION"

Under section "3. End User's Obligations:", of section ", but you are not entitled to:" (snip) "(iv) Commercially exploit or allow a 3rd party commercially exploit game content you created using the Software, including but not limited to use by military organizations for computer aided training or commercially released game content;".

As I explained to a person related to ARMA ACRE project, even accepting donations could be construed as commercially exploitation as there is an exchange of money. This is when I strongly suggested seeking professional legal advice. And when it gets to making money from providing wants instead of needs for human beings, there is obviously little sway or leeway. In other words, it likely would not be a good thing to have a Court Cease & Desist Order on a person's record when sending in their Resume for professional employment, especially if the job concerns anything with software development or maintenance.

(I have bookmarked these two pages and renamed the bookmarks to "Bohemia Studios License" etc, as I continue to have a hard time finding these pages for reference.)

Edited October 11, 2013 by rogerx

[noubernou 77]

Chortles: Ah. This explains a lot! Everything has it's pros and cons. Anyways,

Again I cite this license is on a Wiki Internet page, and Wiki material is commonly utilized for only documents changing often.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:ArmA:_Official_Tools

"These tools are provided to the community under the terms that allows free use of the tools for any non commercial purposes. Any commercial use of the tools is strictly prohibited without permission from BI."

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/End_User_License_Agreement_for_BI's_Tools

"THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU BY BOHEMIA INTERACTIVE FREE OF CHARGE FOR YOUR PERSONAL USE AND TO CREATE NON-COMMERCIAL GAME CONTENT FOR BOHEMIA INTERACTIVE'S PRODUCTS. ANY COMMERCIAL USE IS PROHIBITED WITHOUT PERMISSION"

Under section "3. End User's Obligations:", of section ", but you are not entitled to:" (snip) "(iv) Commercially exploit or allow a 3rd party commercially exploit game content you created using the Software, including but not limited to use by military organizations for computer aided training or commercially released game content;".

As I explained to a person related to ARMA ACRE project, even accepting donations could be construed as commercially exploitation as there is an exchange of money. This is when I strongly suggested seeking professional legal advice. And when it gets to making money from providing wants instead of needs for human beings, there is obviously little sway or leeway. In other words, it likely would not be a good thing to have a Court Cease & Desist Order on a person's record when sending in their Resume for professional employment, especially if the job concerns anything with software.

Courts don't really issue Cease & Desist letters... They are usually a threat of legal action by another entity if you do not cease your activity. It's not something that follows you around, at least on any official record.

[maffa 29]

it is something that makes you spend money into, however, as often people would seek a legal advice that seldom comes for free.

[gammadust 12]

Instead of going all lawer advice route, before anything which presupposes some sort of conflicting interests, the obvious route when a creator's intents are not legally clear, is simply to reach out to the affected party for that clearing (this should include Bohemia or any other author).

[Sealife 22]

but you are not entitled to

Doesnt mean Bohemia are not entitled to use commercially anything made with them .

regardless we know they wont , however the choice is legally there from that spec :) .

There have been FSX standard addons since arma 1 , i remember even the guy who makes Dayz made a plane that has not since been equalled many years ago , what BIS need to do is have an official BID page this would mirror the addons request thread and go like :

I would like a Challenger 2 tank of x polygons :textured to : Standard : et etc

then addon maker 1 will say : Ill make it for $100

Addon maker2 say ill make it for $95

winning bid for work gets the job , this way competition creates good market and maybe even the Chinese and Indians will flood it and we get 1000`s of addons for nice price ;)

[maffa 29]

LOL thats a marketplace platform for procurement... The final parcel will go to BIS, not to the final customer (e.g. me)

[Sealife 22]

LOL thats a marketplace platform for procurement... The final parcel will go to BIS, not to the final customer (e.g. me)

Says who ?

if BIS run the BID site they can have there percentage for the tool useage , why would anyone want to reduce variety by including an extra sanction method on the what is made and released being dictated by BIS distribution only ,that sounds a bit restrictive doesnt it ?

[maffa 29]

this doesnt make any sense, because of the reasons i said before (i.e. pay mods would force entire communities to buy a particular piece of mod in order to play) and because this marketplaec you propose seems to me a way to restrict modder's creativity and initiative, and to force BIS to do something doesnt want to do (i.e. ordering modders to do something), and in any case what the final customer would see is the attempt to nickel and dime him just like any F2P usually does.

modders mod out of frustration, because BIS leaves gap so much big and obvious that someone has to step up and patch it somehow. This is historically true and unfortunately this has become a routine BIS counts on in order to leave the "just above the decency" features to someone else. I dont want to pay for those too, no thank.

I am already uneasy as i am becaue i have to resort to modders in order to have a full featured game, if had to pay to get there that would be the tombstone on arma.

[Sealife 22]

this doesnt make any sense, because of the reasons i said before (i.e. pay mods would force entire communities to buy a particular piece of mod in order to play) and because this marketplaec you propose seems to me a way to restrict modder's creativity and initiative, and to force BIS to do something doesnt want to do (i.e. ordering modders to do something), and in any case what the final customer would see is the attempt to nickel and dime him just like any F2P usually does.

modders mod out of frustration, because BIS leaves gap so much big and obvious that someone has to step up and patch it somehow. This is historically true and unfortunately this has become a routine BIS counts on in order to leave the "just above the decency" features to someone else. I dont want to pay for those too, no thank.

I am already uneasy as i am becaue i have to resort to modders in order to have a full featured game, if had to pay to get there that would be the tombstone on arma.

It doesnt make sense because you are thinking in terms of self ,

If you factor in those that love to make addons for free will not be affected and BIS will always complete what was offered on the packet , then this adds an additional avenue for all

especially wasteland and life mods who make up 80- 90 % of the customer base for Arma 3 in my opinion of course . goto the the addons request thread and 90% of those requests will never be made , however they are things somebody want s/ needs and i believe the only way they will ever get made in that quantity and quality is with a marketplace .

[chortles 263]

Chortles: Ah. This explains a lot! Everything has it's pros and cons.

To be clear, my understanding is that since all Arma 3 mods to date are using the Arma 2/OA tools ("BI Tools 2.5") and all such mods are still held to the same modding license as before; the situation may change depending on later license terms but I don't expect such terms to be released until BI Tools 3 is, and since there's no ETA on BI Tools 3...