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mercenar1e

Mods and ARMA 3 on the same level as FSX?

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Gnat has a valid point though. Where are all of the "names" at, atm? This idea alone has caused several release postponements, and that's only what I know of from closed sources. That in itself should be a valid sign that payed addons wouldn't be a good idea. Several people will be very reluctant to submit any content before or after the fact.
Thats true...as I recall a few individuals were complaining about tool useage and pbo tools that allowed people to look at their addons, and went on a strike to say that they would not release anything until the tools changed, so where are they now.. waiting I bet, waiting to cash in on all of those addons that they said they had no intention of releasing yet constantly post new images of...kind of makes me sick really.

Who knows, this could simply be a "good intentions" kind of thing. The concept is lovely and nice and all but promotes the greatest flaws in human nature, greed, deceit, and so on.

We won't have to worry about others coming in, we'll have to worry about going shark womb on eachother instead. (for those of you that don't know, baby sharks eat each other before they are even born)

And I'm already seeing signs of what I'm fearing will happen.

If this community starves itself on talent because nobody wanted to assist new bloods then the fault is more ours than BI's.

yea i agree. my concerns about that aren't just me imagining stuff. it's seeing how people react to just thinking about it and who reacts how. there have been made some "interesting" remarks already by certain people. i don't really see a real argument for paid addons except "i want money". i get that but don't act as if it's so logical and appropriate. money is nice but so was the community since ofp without it. i know it's good to have an objective debate but let's be honest. all that this brings is the money itself.

fail to see any other "positive" effects.

the whole idea of improving quality by creating incentive is ridiculous. where is the difference to a DLC made by contractors (although the word quality doesn't necessarily apply here)? where is the line drawn? i just think that some people feel personally addressed by this vague "announcement" and now are either quiet (-ly waiting) or trying to make a good case for getting money.

make a small company and get contracted by BI like others did before if that is what you want to do for a living (who knows maybe that's even what is meant here). why make it a community thing when the whole essence of it is the opposite of what makes a community? creating a public discussion instead of quietly contracting talented people behind the scenes is just another BI PR fail to me. i'm fine with BI contracting more people but don't make it a system. that works with skins/hats in tf2 but not with features. i sure won't pay for additional features when the game itself feels like a tech demo. same as i never will pay for any BI DLC again. having paid for one of them taught me otherwise :p

a lot of people say that mods make this game. but i personally disagree. i never use any of those "big" mods and i had the best time playing late arma 2 in MP without any mods whatsoever. what BI needs is better methods or whatever they are missing that makes them release unfinished games. no amount of additional content will fix that. mods for me are fun but far from essential to this game. as many say. after a (long) while BI's games eventually become enjoyable on their own. the moment that mods will be used to make it look better by BI themselves will be when i'll finally be fed up with them.

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I disagree in regards to the community having no influence. Crudely speaking BI is indeed a business and i have no doubts there is monetary motivation on their side. Valve likewise but they have much less at stake. This is obvious. At the same time Bohemia is risking considerably if opting to simply ignore the modders stance on the issue. So there is some leverage on the side of modders. If we can't impose an outcome (as you said the decision is BI's), influencing the decision is not outlandish.

The more they cater to community's concerns the best chance they have to keep it. Likewise inflexibitlity on our part will only lead to loosing what we have now (the best modding franchise in the industry for the genre). Call this thread a negotiating table (more of a public tuning of community's stance).

Are they really considering community's concerns? I have some big doubts about that. They decide in a first place business wise. Can we make profit from such a tough decision then let's do it. Because it is a tough decision. As a business they can always count on their official releases, everything what comes apart from that is more profit. There are people who will pay for good user made mods others won't or can't. time will tell I guess. The biggest issue IMO opinion is Valves license agreement as long as this won't change only a fool would release stuff on SWS. I've read the changes they applied. For me is a simple hash and rehash of wording with actual no significant changes. Therefore modders are reluctant to release their stuff. I can't blame them for that.

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a lot of people say that mods make this game. but i personally disagree. i never use any of those "big" mods and i had the best time playing late arma 2 in MP without any mods whatsoever. what BI needs is better methods or whatever they are missing that makes them release unfinished games. no amount of additional content will fix that. mods for me are fun but far from essential to this game. as many say. after a (long) while BI's games eventually become enjoyable on their own. the moment that mods will be used to make it look better by BI themselves will be when i'll finally be fed up with them.

I think that mentality comes from being so used to mods or being a modder in general, so many look at Arma as a canvas of which their style of art not being present, will feel it is unfinished. I don't know how you can go back to arma 2's infantry movement after arma 3 though hehehe.

In terms of money...the only type I would side with would be donation, because the user is not forced to pay and they cast their votes accordingly. It could or could not work, I don't know but its much more user friendly than say having only the one option, knowing that your product is out for money so it is in your best interest from a business point to withhold information and so on, user accounts could be tied to paypal or whatever and thus not have to worry about other sources and thus IP rights (so it'll not happen)

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I think that mentality comes from being so used to mods or being a modder in general, so many look at Arma as a canvas of which their style of art not being present, will feel it is unfinished. I don't know how you can go back to arma 2's infantry movement after arma 3 though hehehe.

In terms of money...the only type I would side with would be donation, because the user is not forced to pay and they cast their votes accordingly. It could or could not work, I don't know but its much more user friendly than say having only the one option, knowing that your product is out for money so it is in your best interest from a business point to withhold information and so on, user accounts could be tied to paypal or whatever and thus not have to worry about other sources and thus IP rights (so it'll not happen)

well i don't go back to arma 2...ever. in fact it's unbareable at this point. arma 3 might be a tech demo but still a good one at that :p. i was talking about when i played arma 2 before arma 3. unfortunately arma 3 has nothing that would be comparable to insurgency in arma 2 yet. so i mostly play very small coops with friends.

i generally agree about donations and my first thought was creating a culture of donations being common but then i think this through as an alternative to paid DLCs and taking people, who are in favour of being paid for mod work, into account, and i see some extortion tactics like "pay us or we won't release" or mini kick starter like things like "if we reach amount X, we will go on working" happening. sure those things sound great to some maybe but it basically has the same risks. the real problem here is making it a system in my opinion. it's like with games that mainly promote grinding and farming of numbers. you will hardly be able to exist in the game, if you just ignore that grinding is the best way to succeed. it's like playing bf3 like arma, all slow and realistic, just to be raped by all the high speed coke addict mad men/women who constantly sprint and spray (i play like that and enjoy it just for the record ;) ). it's like with the FAKs. if you change the rules, it will affect everyone. period. you can't just roleplay it away.

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"it's like with games that mainly promote grinding and farming of numbers. you will hardly be able to exist in the game, if you just ignore that grinding is the best way to succeed."

That is familiar to me... and my GuildWars 2 experience. Such a beautifully made game, so much interesting gameplay complexity to dive into, yet cooperative fullfilment does not scale well with the level of dedication. Making a "system" out of the modding scene no matter how good it is may bring this effect, simply because there might be not enough breathing room to take the relaxed way...

"it's like playing bf3 like arma, all slow and realistic, just to be raped by all the high speed coke addict mad men/women who constantly sprint and spray (i play like that and enjoy it just for the record)"

That made me rolf!

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i generally agree about donations and my first thought was creating a culture of donations being common but then i think this through as an alternative to paid DLCs and taking people, who are in favour of being paid for mod work, into account, and i see some extortion tactics like "pay us or we won't release" or mini kick starter like things like "if we reach amount X, we will go on working" happening. sure those things sound great to some maybe but it basically has the same risks. the real problem here is making it a system in my opinion.

True true, there is no 100% foolproof system when money is involved, it would be not only the responsibility of the creator but the downloader as well to decide what to do, people would need to rat out extortionists and discourage them from such behaviour, no matter the person or their reputation. In comparison we would be talking about a product for a product already released, for kick starters those things ARE the product, an addon is at its heart an extension of the game, not the game itself thus has no right to be kick started, and we'd need to tell people off for doing such.

Likewise the donation route could potentially allow people to look at others as examples...say this person releases something, they have a donation bit but continue on with their next project donation or no. Then there is this person that comes along and says "I have so and so" or "I can make such and such if you give me money then I'll release it", the answer should not be SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY but rather "Wait..this person released their content and continued, but you demand payment before its even released? What makes you so special"? It would come down to consumer responsibility.

I wouldn't mind if things stayed the way they are, but if I had to vouch I'd prefer the lesser of two evils that offer pure choice and push the funds to the addon developers rather than a music industry scheme. A system where those that would try to remove that choice could be pointed out, scrubbed away and removed from public..afterall, if people don't see it you can't tempt them with it, and I'm not going to feel any pity for a modder who dangles a carrot on a stick in one hand and a collection bucket in the other.

Edited by NodUnit

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i see some extortion tactics like "pay us or we won't release" or mini kick starter like things like "if we reach amount X, we will go on working" happening.

That's not extortion. That's crowd funding. It's saying, "give us some money, and we might give you something in return", which is sort of the opposite of donations which is kind of like, "we will give you something and we hope you will give us some money in return"... it's kind of like gambling. Even direct sales would be preferable, since there is a one to one exchange of product and money. Since it's different, hopefully it will be disallowed if this thing goes through. In order to disallow shenanigans this whole thing would have to be very tightly controlled.

All in all it would be up to the consumer to decide what's good and what's bad, and I'm not very certain that the consumer is a very good person to rely on for that sort of thing.

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It would come down to consumer responsibility.

not the most reliable group ;)

i think the key is anonymity. if there was a big shiny donate button on those armaholic creator pages that are planed and also on steam profiles, then it would be easier to donate just on the fly. so that way there is no excuse. if people who keep saying "i'd pay for this and that" can show how willing they really are. and it should be non public how much donations the creator gathered so it could stay more personal and not a public competition for popularity. the most popular doesn't have to be the best so relying on consumer behavior and numbers is not a good idea. it's better if people tell each other what is good and recommend stuff. it would be cool to be able to see who donated what as the creator though. that way you could find real appreciators that could be good testers for future projects. like this i could see it improve what we already have.

That's not extortion. That's crowd funding.

i said extortion tactics for the lack of a better word (not a native speaker) not as a law term. i was adding on iceman's remark about people holding stuff back already. hence my comparison with grinding games. people already start with the tactics just after a vague statement. it's kind of sad and exactly what i meant.

vilas already described the abuse of such things in the dayZ community in the other thread. money brings all kind of shitty behavior and even promotes it. i personally prefer respect and learning from eachother over money but maybe i just missed the point when this became a business...

Edited by Bad Benson

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i said extortion tactics for the lack of a better word (not a native speaker) not as a law term.

Words mean what they mean.

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Common guys... i'm trying to stay sceptically optimistic here :butbut:

No you cannot create a kickstarter to develop a mod.

You're welcome to create a kickstarter to pay for my PS4 though ;)

So at best only if by "kickstart" we mean the model (not the platform of the same name) and Bohemia santioned at that. But i do think there is some merit to the idea:

Firstly, it is not so ambitious and that demanding as we generally tend to understand as "paid user-made content". It is less likely to stress the concerns beyond possibilities.

Secondly, it would provide a sort of escrow service (where the deal is only finalized if modder stated promises are actually fullfiled). This means protection for both parties but mostly the "donator".

Thirdly, it would, imo, increase the likelyhood of a player to actually "donate" since it makes more clear what exacly is he receiving in return, ie. "kickstarter goals". This would be an improvement over present donate at will if modder provides means to donate.

Unless Bohemia provided the platform itself there wouldn't be much in it for them. Likewise in regards to Valve/Steam. In any case the above would constitute a step forward in regards to alowing for more incentives/commitment in the scene.

There is a related issue. Does the modder sell the mod or what exacly does he sell (let's use the strict word here)?

An easy way out is following the Full/Lite DLC solution. Requiring a modder to provide both versions would assure that anyone could use the mod and those willing to pay for it would have the benefit of additional goodies (ie. high res textures). This solution requires the modder to differentiate via cosmetic/secondary/usability stuff. And might be hard to implement depending on mod types. But it addresses one of the biggest issues in regards to community fragmentation.

Another approach, not mutualy exclusive with the above, is for the modder to sell after-support. Mantains the advantage in regards to fragmentation (limited effectiveness if it means fixing bugs - there it is Curation again helping in preventing prominence of this eventuality). Harder to assure the player of modder keeping his part of the bargain (escrow advantage is neutralized)

In any case this is dependent on the modders ability to close up Full versions addons from public scrutiny. (The "free software" freedoms mentioned in earlier post of mine would be only ensured by the Lite version). Or alternatively: Bohemia packing these Full versions themselves.

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Words mean what they mean.

well in my language it means "do this or i'll (not) do this". so what's your point exactly?

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not the most reliable group ;)

i think the key is anonymity. if there was a big shiny donate button on those armaholic creator pages that are planed and also on steam profiles, then it would be easier to donate just on the fly. so that way there is no excuse. if people who keep saying "i'd pay for this and that" can show how willing they really are. and it should be non public how much donations the creator gathered so it could stay more personal and not a public competition for popularity. the most popular doesn't have to be the best so relying on consumer behavior and numbers is not a good idea. it's better if people tell each other what is good and recommend stuff. it would be cool to be able to see who donated what as the creator though. that way you could find real appreciators that could be good testers for future projects. like this i could see it improve what we already have.

Yeah..always with the TAKE MY MONEY so quickly..I wonder if they think it is a legit phrase and miss the irony of the scene in which it was taken from..either way, yes anonymity is definately required, last thing we want is someone getting jealous of another person for donations then saying they won't do something until they meet what that person has, money gathered should never be public knowledge for something like this, that should be between the consumer and the developer for sure.

Crowd funding is..mh...I understand it for games because that IS the product, those people do it as a JOB, with staff, licenses training and all sorts of development costs.

The common modder learns from online tutorials, by examining the works of others, tinkering and so on.

They don't take professional classes or courses in schools (if you did then good for you, the consumer shouldn't have to pay for that), quite a few probably use unlicensed software, they aren't likely paying anyone especially if they are alone and its most likely a hobby.

By comparison people whose JOB this is have to- (in no particular order)

A. Company purchases computers and base equipment

B. Hire talent

C. pay for licensing softare

D. train personnel on tools, methods and non basics

E. Set up a system of coordination

F. IS THEIR JOB, it is what brings in the grocery, pays the bills and other expenses, without it they have nothing.

G. The company has to pay salaries

H. Publishing

And there is so much more, with an overhead mind boggling cost which the addon creator bears very little of.

Another point a friend of mine brought up was the concept of freedom, if we go to a full on pay to get method then the consumer dictates what is and what isn't good or otherwise, which is is bad if they don't understand the direction of the addon. By donating they get the choice to decide if it is their venue and if they like it, without much concern of refunds. And being that addons tend to be a 'testing waters' at first, I could see people trying to abuse this by purchasing, not liking or "not liking" then demanding a refund. the alternative is NO REFUNDS and that gets into even more joyous areas.

Edited by NodUnit

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On anonymity, I notice two things in the case of looking at the funded Mighty No. 9 page on Kickstarter:

#1: There is anonymity of contributors by default -- you can see how many people contributed, both total and in what tiers, but not who specifically.

#2: There usually aren't exclusive/limited rewards, or at least with the latter, you can see how many are left... unlike the Arma 3 Supporter Edition "name in credits". :p

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#1: There is anonymity of contributors by default -- you can see how many people contributed, both total and in what tiers, but not who specifically.

we are not talking about kickstarter here though. it was just mentioned because of some similarities. the word anonymity was the wrong choice of words. i was talking more about leaving th numbers in the dark so it becomes less like kickstarter.

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well in my language it means "do this or i'll (not) do this". so what's your point exactly?

What I was saying is you can't mean extortion yet not mean extortion at the same time. Either extortion is a good description of the idea or it's not. In this case, it is not. What you meant to do was to overdramatize the issue with rhetoric, and I get that. That can even be a good part of a reductio ad absurdum if correctly applied. In this case, it was not correctly applied, and I don't think we need any more barriers to understanding this hypothetical situation in the first place. Running around going, "asking for more donations in order to move forward is like extortion" is appealing because it is a shortcut to thinking. If memory serves me correctly, Vilas has already used these 'tactics'. He asked for donations to cover the cost of a computer so he could continue modding for the community. Vilas is a lot of things, but he's not an extortionist, and to equate him to an extortionist is a slap in the face.

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Well its sad really, I maybe an old school pc gamer, but I am quite happy to go back or indeed stay playing a better game. Just because, ‘better’, tends to be more entertaining for me. I find it hard to walk away from quality, especially really good quality, whether that be built up by the business making the item or people adding to it, or both.

Some players moved over to A3 real easy, that’s great, but it makes me wonder if they really got the best out of A2, or indeed titles prior to that. Of course if a new game comes along that matches it for quality of game-play and immersion, I would move along to that, BIS or otherwise. But I can still go back and play older good quality games and still find them really entertaining, nice graphics and smoothed out movement, don’t cloud my judgement that often.

Regards this pay for mod/addon issue. I said earlier that I would be happy to pay for mod/addons, in-fact more likely to pay than donate, which is a very inadequate way of doing anything, to be honest. People think good thoughts and have the right intention, but tend to not bother once the things downloaded. That said, I have donated, but not as many times as perhaps I should have, considering the amount of mod/addons I have.

Look, it’s a big decision for the mod/addon maker, once they start charging, should they get the opportunity, its income. They may already have a job, this is extra income that goes down as earnings, so if your employed in your normal everyday job, your also self employed making mod/addons for sale in your spare time.

An even bigger decision, to go full on and make it your whole income source, a business, that’s a bigger decision again. Either way those decisions are not to be taken lightly.

So it won’t stop the free addon maker from producing anything, there will always be those that will want to just do it as a hobby and be generous enough to share it, any quality. It would just make the earning mod/addon makers concentrate on getting the quality dead right, for the scrutiny of bis and buyers.

But ultimately its down to BIS, the communities view carries little to no weight, shame but its true, look at A3..:rolleyes:

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What I was saying is you can't mean extortion yet not mean extortion at the same time. Either extortion is a good description of the idea or it's not. In this case, it is not. What you meant to do was to overdramatize the issue with rhetoric, and I get that. That can even be a good part of a reductio ad absurdum if correctly applied. In this case, it was not correctly applied, and I don't think we need any more barriers to understanding this hypothetical situation in the first place. Running around going, "asking for more donations in order to move forward is like extortion" is appealing because it is a shortcut to thinking. If memory serves me correctly, Vilas has already used these 'tactics'. He asked for donations to cover the cost of a computer so he could continue modding for the community.

you just misunderstood. that's why it makes a difference if i put the word tactics behind it. you are accusing me of something i didn't do. if you know a better word then tell me instead of going all nitpicky on me.

Vilas is a lot of things, but he's not an extortionist, and to equate him to an extortionist is a slap in the face.

as if i would ever mean it like that.

look.

if vilas' computer broke down and he asked for donations that it's certainly not a case of that kind of extortion, if you assume, which i do, that his PC was really broken. replace that fact with a lie and you have tactical use of lies to get people to give you money which might help you bare the word extortion better instead of accusing me of calling him an extorionist. :rolleyes:

a much better example is, and what i initially meant, when people hold back what is already done to make the donations go up. there's much room for abuse if donations are more than just a quiet after thought. i don't care what status a modder has in this community. if you do such things you are abusing the grey area between normal paid products and an open end concept like donations. making people think you won't release to make them pay more is the same. it would be legal and all but still a dick move, if you ask me. i realize that it's not as grave as not releasing someone's child until reveiving ransom money but the principle is the same. hence me saying "lack of a better word" since it's the same thing in german.

the problem i described, detailed enough i thought, was if that donations become the norm tactics like that will become more common. same as vilas himself said on the topic (i think in the other thread) "if a creator asks for money for his work that's fine. problems arise when others ask for money for stuff they didn't make. and if money gets in the game it will become more common". as he showed by the example of his stuff being used on several paid dayZ mod servers.

Edited by Bad Benson
lightened it up ;P

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And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter what you put behind it, words mean what they mean. First you say you're not a native English speaker so you don't know what you're saying, now you say you knew exactly what you were saying so you put tactics behind it. Very interesting.

And when we're saying 'nitpicky' I think what you mean is 'accurate'. Like I said, all of these histrionics do nothing to help people understand the situation. Calling vilas an extortionist DIRECTLY FOLLOWS calling a situation where someone is asking for money to continue making mods extortion. Accuracy such as 'meaning what you are saying' and 'knowing what your words mean' is required.

edit: Something you have to get comfortable with is that you will never know if any claims that are made on the internet are true. Mod makers can already ask for donations, seemingly, so the framework is already in place for any modder to claim that their videocard blew up therefore they need money, or their car broke down so they need a new car so they can get home from work earlier so they can mod more or whatever the story is.

Edited by Max Power

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Calling vilas an extortionist DIRECTLY FOLLOWS calling a situation where someone is asking for money to continue making mods extortion. Accuracy such as 'meaning what you are saying' and 'knowing what your words mean' is required.

please read what i write. there's a difference between not being able to continue a project and holding it back after showing it to people to make them want it and then telling them "oh dear my PC broke down. if i don't get like 500 bucks from you guys i won't be able to finish it" to make them donate more or at all. the person extorting doesn't have to have the intend to go through with it. much like kidnapping. the key is making the other side do something.

Something you have to get comfortable with is that you will never know if any claims that are made on the internet are true. Mod makers can already ask for donations, seemingly, so the framework is already in place for any modder to claim that their videocard blew up therefore they need money, or their car broke down so they need a new car so they can get home from work earlier so they can mod more or whatever the story is.

it's funny how you put the whole essence of what i mean in your little "EDIT". sure you can't know if someone bullshits you. that's exactly my point :rolleyes: how is it being common on the internet or it being possible already weakening my point? as i said if there's a public culture of donations as a payment model for addons you can be sure that people will abuse it. and more than before.

you are cheaply bringing vilas into this because you know exactly what i mean and that's the only way to prove your theory that i'm trying to blow things out of proportion. how about you just tell me which word describes better what i said instead? i really don't see what you are trying to achieve here.

Edited by Bad Benson

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please read what i write. there's a difference between not being able to continue a project and holding it back after showing it to people to make them want it and then telling them "oh dear my PC broke down. if i don't get like 500 bucks from you guys i won't be able to finish it" to make them donate more or at all. the person extorting doesn't have to have the intend to go through with it. much like kidnapping. the key is making the other side do something.

There's no difference, and you can't know even if there was. What you're talking about here is a difference in wording which is pretty much meaningless. Moreover, the door is already open to what you are cautioning against. And I see you used the word extortion again, and yet you don't mean it. I don't know what to tell you, man.

it's funny how you put the whole essence of what i mean in your little "EDIT".

Well I guess someone had to :p

sure you can't know if someone bullshits you. that's exactly my point :rolleyes: how is it being common on the internet or it being possible already weakening my point?

I'm attempting to 'weaken your point'? I think if you recall, I was attempting to help you strengthen it by saying that the word 'extort' isn't appropriate ;)

as i said if there's a public culture of donations as a payment model for addons you can be sure that people will abuse it. and more than before.

How does that work? It's already possible to do that. It's perfectly acceptable to ask for donations. So you think that it should be allowed but no one should know about it?

you are cheaply bringing vilas into this because you know exactly what i mean and that's the only way to prove your theory that i'm trying to blow things out of proportion. how about you just tell me which word describes what i said instead? i really don't see what you are trying to achieve here.

No, I am exactly extrapolating what you said to its inevitable conclusion based on your use of the word 'extortion'. If you don't think that's fair, maybe you shouldn't use the word 'extort'.

edit: I find it very confusing that you excused your use of the word 'extort' by saying that english isn't your first language, now you're holding on to it like your life depends on it. Sorry man, using that word was not appropriate in this circumstance by the definition of the word and by the logically cogent conclusions that directly and inevitably follow. Period.

Edited by Max Power

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...nvm. who cares, right?...:D

here's why i used the bad word and what i meant by it. couldn't find a better example http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Blackmail-People-Obligation-Manipulate/dp/0060928972

to get donations you need to provide quality first. so no harm done. so as long as everyone will have a donate button by default, i see no problem. so also the quiet coder/mission maker will get some and not only the people with their own fancy fan site and a big PR effort. i mean i played chernarus apocalypse so many times and still i never saw Celery asking for anything. just makes me wonder sometimes how justified it is to ask for money at all. but i totally realize that anyone not doing it could do so any time.

Edited by Bad Benson
nvm

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so there's no difference between lying about it or blowing it out of proportion and just having a donate button that just sits there or having a real problem and asking for help? how so? how are these two exactly the same?

Lying about it is fraud.

There is no difference between saying you need x money for y thing, regardless of what the reason, because that need is unverifiable. If mod maker says he needs money for a new hard drive, but spends it on hookers and blow, you will have no way of knowing as long as he keeps making addons. But, if you are lumping Fraud in with saying you need money for something in order to continue, then you are denying vilas his donations, since this is exactly what he did.

I don't think that either of us were talking about 'just having a donation button lying around' at any point in this conversation.

why do you ignore my request to provide a better word to describe what i mean?

Why didn't you address every little last speck of my last message? Because you didn't care about it or didn't want to waste your time on it? I understand. That's why I didn't answer this question as well.

If you recall, in my very first first post on the subject, when everyone still remembered that we were talking about, I used the word 'crowd funding'. We were talking about the use of the word extortion to describe the situation where a mod maker says, "I need money to continue". Not, "I need money to continue" then run off without doing anything, or just letting a donate button sit there for people to trip over.

At any rate, I can tell I have said everything I want to say on this topic because I've been repeating myself. You can make a reply but if you wish but if you want to discuss it further I think we should take it to PM.

Edited by Max Power

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Gnat has a valid point though. Where are all of the "names" at, atm? This idea alone has caused several release postponements, and that's only what I know of from closed sources. That in itself should be a valid sign that payed addons wouldn't be a good idea. Several people will be very reluctant to submit any content before or after the fact.

I think it's an excellent sign. Finally some more quality content. I love the idea of buying addons for arma.

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well i was too late with my last edit so might as well keep on going ;)

But, if you are lumping Fraud in with saying you need money for something in order to continue, then you are denying vilas his donations, since this is exactly what he did.

i wasn't lumping it in. i was making a distinction which you chose/are choosing to ignore. i don't get why you can't see that they are two different things. i marked what makes the difference. i hope that's enough now.

I don't think that either of us were talking about 'just having a donation button lying around' at any point in this conversation.

that's why i said this and not only what you made bold.

just having a donate button that just sits there or having a real problem and asking for help?

...

Why didn't you address every little last spec of my last message? Because you didn't care about it or didn't want to waste your time on it? In understand. That's why I didn't answer this question as well.

If you recall, in my very first first post on the subject, when everyone still remembered that we were talking about, I used the word 'crowd funding'. If you recall, we were talking about the use of the word extortion to describe the situation where a mod maker says, "I need money to continue". Not, "I need money to continue" then ran off without doing anything, or just letting a donate button sit there for people to trip over.

oh come on. we both know that i wasn't talking about crowd funding but playing the pity card (hence "emotional blackmail") eventhough you are perfectly able to mod without money. i'm not actively denying anyone his money. stop being such a lame finger pointer. it's not my fault that you are systematically misunderstanding me just because you have an imagined problem with the connotion of one single word i used.

If you recall, we were talking about the use of the word extortion to describe the situation where a mod maker says, "I need money to continue". Not, "I need money to continue" then ran off without doing anything, or just letting a donate button sit there for people to trip over.

that's your wrong interpretation and oversimplification and the much needed explaination for the motivation behind your posts, which was unclear to me so far. i was always talking about abusive use of possibilities not donations being bad in themselves or someone needing money to continue. i think i made that more than clear.

still no idea why you think you have to defend vilas from my alleged accusations or me denying him his money. kinda weird if you ask me :p i don't know vilas' case really well so it would be nice if you could stop bringing him up as if i was specifically talking about him just because you personally see such a strong connection between him and what i said even after me repeatedly showing you how that's not true. i see what you are doing and it's not working.

there's also some grey areas you are missing. here are the scenarios i can think of.

1. "i need money to continue" - delivers more since now has new PC.

2. "i need money for all i did so far but won't continue" - good luck with that :p

3. "i need money to continue" - runs off with money, doesn't make addons. unlikely to happen. who will donate in the first place, if the person isn't likely to deliver? (so why would i even mean that one?)

4. (and what i mean) "i need money to continue" - has addon sitting there ready for release, checking out how much can be gathered from making release dependant on donations using kickstarter style PR to make more money than just from thoughtful occasional donations. again. difference to actual kickstarter is that there is no "need" for money. it's neither fraud nor crowdfunding. it's abusive use of the knowledge that people will pay if you say the right things. is it a crime? no.

you are still saying all of these are the same just because it's hard to tell if someone tells the truth? so what i don't know doesn't exist?

i hope that made it clear now.

this now looks as if this is tiny piece of the puzzle is super important to me thanks to you blowing up one single word in my post. kinda sucks. but who cares at this point, right? ;)

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@[APS]Gnat that is not too fair. Specially since those teams have contributed with no compensation prospect in mind. Let them have their Christmas, as players we have Christmas all year round.

Why "not fair"? I won't deny any genuine mod maker their dues if this stupid plan does actually happen ......

But as I and Iceman77 eluded to, development from some of the "big names" has now gone very quiet, and will likely remain so until BI very clearly clarifies one way or another.

No surprise how money changes things.

As for this apparent need for Crowd Funding or Emotional Blackmail to donate, more bullshit, our harddrives are full of top-notch addons and scenarios, many thousands of addons, and barely a dollar changed hands.

Those who seem to want / opening seek donations are a very small minority.

Sounds too much like more Gen Y, entitlement and narcissism .........

Edited by [APS]Gnat

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