Animal testing

[VXR 9]

i would like to see a terrorist against the ground that gets ripped by dogs or something is just sick that that kind of people called terrorist exist

[Longinius 1]

"i would like to see a terrorist against the ground that gets ripped by dogs or something is just sick that that kind of people called terrorist exist"

You do know that terrorist is a very dangerous word to use, right? Freedomfighters in Denmark and France were called terrorists by the Germans during WW2. It is a fine line between most terrorists and freedomfighters and the definition is always made by the stronger party. Or the winner, which ever way it might end up.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

American forces was called Terrorists in Afghanistan this year actually... By Taliban and its people. For them, America was the agressor, killing innocent people... same deal.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CosmicCastaway @ Aug. 20 2002,15:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Aug. 20 2002,15:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yet alone being able to create various ways of communication, not only speach, but also using movements.

Our intelligence lays on, that instead of using monkeys grunt-sounds to communicate 20 different cmmands, we have millions of ways of expressing ourselves. Instead of using a stick to get ants out of the trees, we use bulldozers to conqiuer minerals, vitamins, money.

We are many times more suffisticated than any animal on the planet of earth.

And yes... I might be a selfish bastard, but I do feal more worth than an ant!<span id='postcolor'>

Hate to drag this up, but all animals use a combination of ways to communicate. Vocal, visual, aural, many many ways. If you could see me, I would be able to communicate to you simply from my facial expression, how I was feeling. Same goes for animals. For example, horses express themselves using their ears a great deal. Just because they can't speak (as we would understand it) doesnt make them of lesser worth.

I agree with you on this point though: Instead of using a stick to get ants out of the trees, we use bulldozers to conqiuer minerals, vitamins, money.

We do tend to express ourselves through destruction quite a lot...<span id='postcolor'>

As I said, but you probably didnt read it, animals only have a few simple communication methods and commands. They do not have a sofisticated language that most humans do.

No, we are not more worth than animals, since they are just as important for our survival as we are for some of them. BUT, it is our nature, like any other animal to kill and eat.

We have as much right to harm an animal as the bird has to harm the worm to feed its children. Killing for fun is a big NO-NO, but for our survival is only natural making us not less worthy. If you noticed, the entire planet is one big eco-system that provides itself with food. Humans have their methods to reach their goal, tigers have another and zebras have a third. Its simple.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Aug. 20 2002,16:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I said, but you probably didnt read it, animals only have a few simple communication methods and commands. They do not have a sofisticated language that most humans do.

No, we are not more worth than animals, since they are just as important for our survival as we are for some of them. BUT, it is our nature, like any other animal to kill and eat.

We have as much right to harm an animal as the bird has to harm the worm to feed its children. Killing for fun is a big NO-NO, but for our survival is only natural making us not less worthy. If you noticed, the entire planet is one big eco-system that provides itself with food. Humans have their methods to reach their goal, tigers have another and zebras have a third. Its simple.<span id='postcolor'>

If animals had only a few simple communication methods then we would probably see a lot more people going 'Dr Dolittle' on us, and talking to the animals. Heck if it were that simple, I could understand what your average dog in the street were saying. Yes, animals are useful, and yes we do need them to survive, I have never said killing and eating animals was a bad thing. In fact, I had part of one for lunch.

This planet is indeed one big ecosystem, the problem is our 'methods' for reaching the goal (whatever that may be), tend to deprive other species of their ability to survive.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ Aug. 19 2002,16:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's probably someone here almost as wise as me, who have already mentioned this option, but I couldn't be bothered to check...

How about using terrorists and murderers for medical tests instead of animals?

1: The cuddly little beasts gets to live.

2: The nasty terrorists gets to die.

3: Testing on humans is much more effective than testing on animals.

It's a no-brainer, really.<span id='postcolor'>

Quote from me on the "AL qaeda tapes" topic.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> find a way to test all their crap without using innocent animals. Hell, use serial killers for that, they deserve it, they're not innocent...

<span id='postcolor'>

Pretty close to what you said

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,02:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You'll have to ask Oligo for the medicine testing stuff, it is his area. I don't know the specifics. But it is safe to assume that for instance in the US the FDA has requirements that food and drugs have to be tested before they are released. The choice that the industry has is between testing on humans or animals. They don't want to risk it on humans so they go for animals.<span id='postcolor'>

The following is quoted from Oligo's material:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Although the Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act does not specifically mandate animal testing for cosmetic safety, FDA strongly urges cosmetic manufacturers to conduct whatever tests are appropriate to establish that their cosmetics are safe. <span id='postcolor'>

It appears to me that its a hell of a lot more optional than you thought. Theres also the matter of false advertising. It seems to be illegal everywhere i look, so in my mind, i dont see how any company could say their product is cruelty free when it actually isnt. The following was taken from this site.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Federal Law

False-advertising claims are often brought under section 43(a) of the federal Lanham Act. That statute provides in part that:

"Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services ... uses in commerce any ... false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which ... in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities, shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act."

<span id='postcolor'>

Hence, i'm pretty sure my stick of botanical deoderant is fairly safe to believe as cruelty free.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Aug. 20 2002,03:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Man has been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of years...don't tell me that all of a sudden we shouldn't.

I am against inhumane conditions like battery farms, but eating meat is a very fundamental human act.

If people wish to be vegetarian, so be it.

But don't presume to tell others how to live.<span id='postcolor'>

This is a very common mistake that non vegitarians/vegans make. You seem to think that just because we, ourselves, do these things and think the way we do, that we think everyone else should too. This is wrong. We simply dont want animals to suffer. The industry behind meat is exactly the cause of this suffering. If people would take responsibility for how they eat and get it themselves, there would be far less of an issue here.

[Aculaud 0]

One more thing,

So far, everyone here who thinks we're the most intelligent species on the planet is backing it up with nothing more than the ability to speak and build things. Youre fogetting that we dont just get born with these abilities; We have to learn, as i said a while ago. I'll say it again: WE HAVE TO LEARN. Hows that for a fundamental of nature for you?

Animals need to learn too. Or maybe they dont. Maybe the reason that we dont see them advancing to "our level" is because they're as far up the evolutionary ladder as they're going to get. When put in prespective, that puts them lightyears beyond us.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,21:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It appears to me that its a hell of a lot more optional than you thought. Theres also the matter of false advertising. It seems to be illegal everywhere i look, so in my mind, i dont see how any company could say their product is cruelty free when it actually isnt. The following was taken from this site.

(snip..)

Hence, i'm pretty sure my stick of botanical deoderant is fairly safe to believe as cruelty free.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, apparently the laws are different in the EU and USA. Remind me to never more use American deoderant, as it hasn't been properly tested

But cosmetics and deoderants are only one thing. Are you refusing to take any medicine because it has been tested on animals? (This can't be optional even in USA)

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you refusing to take any medicine because it has been tested on animals? (This can't be optional even in USA)<span id='postcolor'>

I dont take anything with a gelatin capsule. Thats about the best i can do. Being vegan, i need supliments.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,22:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One more thing,

So far, everyone here who thinks we're the most intelligent species on the planet is backing it up with nothing more than the ability to speak and build things. Youre fogetting that we dont just get born with these abilities; We have to learn, as i said a while ago. I'll say it again: WE HAVE TO LEARN. Hows that for a fundamental of nature for you?

Animals need to learn too. Or maybe they dont. Maybe the reason that we dont see them advancing to "our level" is because they're as far up the evolutionary ladder as they're going to get. When put in prespective, that puts them lightyears beyond us.<span id='postcolor'>

OMG

/me lays on floor laughing his arse out!

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Vixer @ Aug. 20 2002,16:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i would like to see a terrorist against the ground that gets ripped by dogs or something is just sick that that kind of people called terrorist exist  <span id='postcolor'>

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The word terrorist has been thrown around with gay abondon since S11...the meaning now seems to imply anyone who is non-American and/or non-Christian...

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,22:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One more thing,

So far, everyone here who thinks we're the most intelligent species on the planet is backing it up with nothing more than the ability to speak and build things. Youre fogetting that we dont just get born with these abilities; We have to learn, as i said a while ago. I'll say it again: WE HAVE TO LEARN. Hows that for a fundamental of nature for you?

Animals need to learn too. Or maybe they dont. Maybe the reason that we dont see them advancing to "our level" is because they're as far up the evolutionary ladder as they're going to get. When put in prespective, that puts them lightyears beyond us.<span id='postcolor'>

So if animals have indeed evolved beyond humans and have reached their peak of evolution, then that makes us superior already, and means we'll be the dominant species for another few thousand years.

I'm not saying humans are superior to animals because we can talk and build things, i'm saying it because its obvious. Just because we kill things (like a large number of animals do) doesn't mean we're inferior. Its not just medicine, its shedloads of things. Humans can adapt to any surroundings in the world, animals can't. You take a butterfly out of the amazon and dump it in a different rainforest it dies, humans can move throughpout the world easily without having to worry about whether the air is too salty or something. \In that way we're superior. We've used science to discover the origins of animals, what the world was like even before we existed. We have physics, Bio-technology, we've sent men into space, we can contact anyone in the world in a matter of seconds via the internet etc... etc... Shit, we could IMPROVE wildlife through Genetics. Maybe one day there will come a time when we don't need animals and plants to live, maybe there'll be atime when we repopulate the world with extinct species of animals (obviously not dinosaurs cos if hollywood has taught us anything its that dinosaurs do damage)

I mean, if i could be arsed i could go through loads more reasons why humans are smarter and superior to animals, there are loads. Just saying ''well, some scientist says Dolphins are mor intelligent than us, so lets all fear the day the animal kingdom takes over'' isn't good enough, because at this moment, and probably until the aliens start nuking us, humans will be the superior race on this planet. And surely, if indeed the entire world is intent on killing things, surely it'll be difficult for animals to take us on anyway

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Aug. 20 2002,13:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,22:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One more thing,

So far, everyone here who thinks we're the most intelligent species on the planet is backing it up with nothing more than the ability to speak and build things. Youre fogetting that we dont just get born with these abilities; We have to learn, as i said a while ago. I'll say it again: WE HAVE TO LEARN. Hows that for a fundamental of nature for you?

Animals need to learn too. Or maybe they dont. Maybe the reason that we dont see them advancing to "our level" is because they're as far up the evolutionary ladder as they're going to get. When put in prespective, that puts them lightyears beyond us.<span id='postcolor'>

OMG

/me lays on floor laughing his arse out!<span id='postcolor'>

OHHHH, i get it! lol, i knew i'd figure it out sooner or later. You know everything, dont you? You cant be tought one wit about animals or what goes on in their minds, becuase you already know everything there is to know on that subject, right?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,23:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You know everything, dont you? You cant be tought one wit about animals or what goes on in their minds, becuase you already know everything there is to know on that subject, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Don't be mean to the cow Aculaud. Animals are people too, you know

[Aculaud 0]

Ahhhhhh, gay kakken af en yam!!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,17:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OHHHH, i get it! lol, i knew i'd figure it out sooner or later. You know everything, dont you? You cant be tought one wit about animals or what goes on in their minds, becuase you already know everything there is to know on that subject, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Personally I admire how smart many animals are, and I think SOME level of civilization may possibly be taught to other primates than us.

However, I think we are superior in thinking ability... I can not say that I agree with the Theory of Evolution when it comes to man 100%, but using it implies all life is equally important(or not important). It's also natural for us to treat other humans as more important than other animals, this is a law of nature, and has many levels.

We MAY be intelectually superior due to the following: It is written in aincient Sumerian tablets that before man had a name, before man had a name for the earth, and before man used language, the "Angels" (DINGIR) came from the sky. . . . . . The "Angels" created a new man by taking a part of them and a part of a prehistoric human. Bla Bla Bla rib bone taken to create female Bla Bla....

Anyway, it is written all over prehistoric tablets that "aliens" were among us and gave us a gift of themselves. This is approx 5000a BC.

I think you can find info about this on the web... hopefully.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,23:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ahhhhhh, gay kakken af en yam!! <span id='postcolor'>

Giving you that jiddisch glossary was like giving a kid a loaded gun

[Major Fubar 0]

Try looking up the Enuma Elish, the Sumerian creation epic...it's very interesting.

Sumerian mythos is probably my favourite...moreso than Greek, Roman or Viking...nice one bn880.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Of course I dont know what every animal thinks... but maybe you do? it sounds like it.

I just find the idea of animals being smarter than us because they dont evolve anymore mentally absurb. You say animals must be thousind of years from us, because they dont evolve as fast as we do.

Well, that means that we were thousind of years ahead of ourselves thousind of years ago, when WE didnt evolve fast.

That is why i cant stop laughing of you and your arguments. Nothing personally.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Aug. 20 2002,17:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sumerian mythos is probably my favourite...moreso than Greek, Roman or Viking...nice one bn880. <span id='postcolor'>

Thanks, except I want to remove the word Myth(ology) from it, as it is written down over and over again in different places. (they had nothing to gain from expending so much energy to document lies)

ANyway, that's another topic

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Aug. 20 2002,14:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We MAY be intelectually superior due to the following:  It is written in aincient Sumerian tablets that before man had a name, before man had a name for the earth, and before man used language, the "Angels" (DINGIR) came from the sky.  . . . . .  The "Angels" created a new man by taking a part of them and a part of a prehistoric human.  Bla Bla Bla rib bone taken to create female  Bla Bla....<span id='postcolor'>

Its stuff like this that acts as proof that we must at least stay open minded. Iv heard someone say that "The smart man is the one who says "I dont know."". Which is true; we dont know. Bn880 is right. We MAY be more intelligent due to these things, but there is no proof of this. Just like theres no proof that god exists, and just like theres no proof that animals are really as dumb as percieved by a lot of us. Its not like we should regard these things as erroneous, but something mankind has to come to grips with sooner or later is that we really dont know anything regarding these things. We think we know, due to what some guy tells us, but that doesnt make it infallible.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Aug. 20 2002,14:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course I dont know what every animal thinks... but maybe you do? it sounds like it.

I just find the idea of animals being smarter than us because they dont evolve anymore mentally absurb. You say animals must be thousind of years from us, because they dont evolve as fast as we do.

Well, that means that we were thousind of years ahead of ourselves thousind of years ago, when WE didnt evolve fast.

That is why i cant stop laughing of you and your arguments. Nothing personally.<span id='postcolor'>

*pinches bridge of nose in effort to stop migrane*

What i said was...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,13:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Animals need to learn too. Or maybe they dont. Maybe the reason that we dont see them advancing to "our level" is because they're as far up the evolutionary ladder as they're going to get. When put in prespective, that puts them lightyears beyond us.<span id='postcolor'>

So, by being as far up the evolutionary ladder as they're going to get, assuming i'm right, they can be characterized as 'more advanced than us', seeing as how we obviously arent done climbing said ladder yet. Do you get it yet?

[Major Fubar 0]

Humans are more intelligent the same way elephants are bigger, cheetas faster, etc. etc.

It's simple evolution - if a change (mutation) occurs in a species which is advantageous, then the changed specimen will be more successful, and more able to procreate and spread it's DNA. Soon, specimens without the change cannot compete and either die out, or become a seperate (sub)species.

The fact humans are more intelligent and therefore able to dominate and exploit other species does mean they are "better", the same way a lion is "better" when it finds a lone, unarmed human and mauls it to death and eats it.

I don't see how anyone can dispute the fact that due to our intelligence (the most valuable survival trait in nature), we are superior to other animals.  

If an asteroid is going to wipe out all life on Earth sometime in the future, who is going to save it: humans with their intelligence and technology, or some damn dolphin splashing around having sex and eating fish all day?