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Oligo

Animal testing

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,09:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your concience is as cloudy as the skies of Seatte, because you, sir, are a hypocrite pure and simple. The only factor that lets you believe your concience is clear is because that friendly industry is there to kill animals for you. What if it wasn't?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, I at least would feel better if I could hunt and kill my food instead of buying it from a supermarket. That at least would be completely natural and then my conscience would be totally clean.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 20 2002,10:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, I at least would feel better if I could hunt and kill my food instead of buying it from a supermarket.<span id='postcolor'>

Just great! Now I'll have to go out and club dinner before cooking it as well.

Thanks a lot, fellas! mad.gif

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Maybe you should hint to your husband that he should be cooking from now on Avon... biggrin.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,09:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They may be speaking English soon but i doubt they'll ever build skyscrapers, computers, machines, cars, satellites etc...<span id='postcolor'>

Right. They'll never fuck up the planet as bad as we have. Because, unlike us, they are advanced enough to co-exist with nature just fine the way it is. We, on the other hand, have had to invent everything we possibly could in order to live a "Normal life".<span id='postcolor'>

lol, please. Volcano's will do the same amount of damage to the evironment as a nuke, same way that forest fires will do the same as we're doing (and believe it or not trying desperatly to stop - thats everyone, not just pacifists) to the rainforest.

The biggest threat to this world is not Nuclear war, last time i checked the world is most likely to end from natural causes that we have absolutly no control over (such as being hit by asteroids - and let me ask - who on this earth will have the best chance of preventing that happening? eh? Not the animals for certain). And war? Animals war too, its just when humans war its much more impressive and on a larger scale because we're more intelligent than animals (believe it or not). I mean, of course, its only instinct in animnals to kill so they can justifiably go around and kill anything, i think its instinct in humans too it's just dumbed down over the years (we are after all animals too).

Why do you need to blame all the worlds problems on the humans anyway? Nature itself can potentially be 500times more devastating. Disease kills animals like it does humans, and i'm fairly sure disease has been the biggest killer in the world, did humans create disease? no. In fact, who is curing all the diseases right about now? the giraffes? no, its the humans (curing the animal and human diseases because we're all so nice. Please don't forget that most cures developed for animals were in fact developed by us and not the monkeys)

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lol, please. Volcano's will do the same amount of damage to the evironment as a nuke, same way that forest fires will do the same as we're doing (and believe it or not trying desperatly to stop - thats everyone, not just pacifists) to the rainforest.<span id='postcolor'>

A volcano is an involuntary function of nature, hence it does not intend to kill anything. Unlike a nuke. And forest fires happen a microscopic fraction of the time that deforestation happens. Hence, nature is not more violent towards itself than we are to it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...because we're more intelligent than animals (believe it or not).<span id='postcolor'>

Its been scientifically proven that dolphins and whales are the two smartest species on the planet, including humans.

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Ok, here is my ultra-simplified view:

Animal testing for frivolous products like make-up or perfume: NO

Animal testing for cures to terminal and/or incapacitating dieases and ailments: OK, only if other humane forms of testing are unavailable or unreliable

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...because we're more intelligent than animals (believe it or not).<span id='postcolor'>

Its been scientifically proven that dolphins and whales are the two smartest species on the planet, including humans.<span id='postcolor'>

I doubt that. A lot. I think your facts are a bit skewed on this one.

Sure, they are msart (for animals), but their intelligence cannot be equated with that of humans.

And if they are so darn smart, why do they keep swimming into tuna nets and letting us "inferior" humans hunt them to extinction? tounge.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 20 2002,10:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe you should hint to your husband that he should be cooking from now on Avon...<span id='postcolor'>

That's a case where I'd rather my dinner eat me than me eat my dinner.

tounge.gif

(Actually, that's not true. He's a very good cook).

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Who cares? People say animals slaughtering each other is an involutary action of nature but they still kill each other. Nukes are old news anyway, yeah, we have them and we are under threat from them, but who cares? Last time i checked we're decreasing all our arsenals (i mean, of course say we aren't because everyone is so evil and everyone loves nukes all you like, but what the fuck do we klnow what they're doing?). Volcano's do as much damage as nukes, possibly more. Obviously theres the explosion and the ash clouds are kind of like the nature equivelent of the nuclear fallout. We have no control over volcano's, we have control over nukes - which is more dangerous?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its been scientifically proven that dolphins and whales are the two smartest species on the planet.

<span id='postcolor'>

Scientifically proven or not i'll believe all this ''animals are smarter than us'' when they do something more than follow ships around and do some clever tricks in the water, or in the whales case just be pretty big but do hardly anything remotly worthwhile.  I mean, humans can do more impressive tricks than dolphins pretty much anywhere on earth, can follow subs around, and they can also be very large and very lazy. Even if they are in some way smarter than us they probably won't be able to use that intelligence to rival us in any way.

Its ''Proven'' that women are better drivers than men, but if you know whats what its pretty obvious why that is proven and that ultimatly men are better drivers.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 200200)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We have no control over volcano's, we have control over nukes - which is more dangerous?<span id='postcolor'>

Decades pass before a volcano erupts on average. Nukes were detonated almost every week once. And thats not including hydrogen bombs, or thermonuclear weapons. They were tested with similar frequency, and did a hell of a lot more dammage to the envionment than a nuke.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,010)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even if they are in some way smarter than us they probably won't be able to use that intelligence to rival us in any way.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, they'll never sink to our level. They simply must not desire such things. How else do you explain them being perfectly happy doing what they're doing?

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"Yeah, they'll never sink to our level. They simply must not desire such things. How else do you explain them being perfectly happy doing what they're doing?"

Stupidity? Ignorance?

A dog is perfectly happy being a dog most of the time, and I wouldnt say a dog is smarter than man. Or maybe they are. After all, they get us to feed them, to care for them, to pay their doctors bills and to pet them time and time again. Few people got it that good!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Aug. 20 2002,01:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or maybe they are. After all, they get us to feed them, to care for them, to pay their doctors bills and to pet them time and time again. Few people got it that good!<span id='postcolor'>

lol, this is true. My cat plays me like a violin. All he has to do is look up at me, and the first thing that comes into my head is "Awww, you want a treat, dont you?" biggrin.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,10:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 200200)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We have no control over volcano's, we have control over nukes - which is more dangerous?<span id='postcolor'>

Decades pass before a volcano erupts on average. Nukes were detonated almost every week once. And thats not including hydrogen bombs, or thermonuclear weapons. They were tested with similar frequency, and did a hell of a lot more dammage to the envionment than a nuke.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,010)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even if they are in some way smarter than us they probably won't be able to use that intelligence to rival us in any way.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, they'll never sink to our level. They simply must not desire such things. How else do you explain them being perfectly happy doing what they're doing?<span id='postcolor'>

Like i said, who cares? That was ages ago and so far they haven't destroyed the entire world, maybe a 20 mile stretch of desert was completly devastated and lost a couple of rattlesnakes and cactus (shock, horror). We still have control over them. I think i read somewhere that a single volcano erupted, a huge area of land was destroyed, and ash completly bclogged up the sky, preventing sunlight getting in and therefore all plantlife and therefore wildlife died. Now, please tell me human weapons are more damaging to the environment than that.

Well, i'm pretty sure if any animals had the intelligence to understand the benefits of medicine, education and and such things that humans have brought to this world (remembering theres other things apart from nukes). Not everyone is a depressed maniac pacifist, i'm perfectly happy in my life. Personally i enjoy all the evils humanity has produced such as Computers, TV, winter sports and football. I can explain them being so happy without such things by saying that they have no clue that Cars and Medicine and everything else exists. They see a plane and they'll think its a bird or something, we feed them pills they'll think its dinner. They may be intelligent but they'd never understand such things, if they did i'm prettyy sure they'd be much like us. Remeber that humans used to be like animals, and as they developed they got into killing etc..up to today. What makes you think dolphins would be any different? O yeah, because they're stupid and will never develop things like we have, which defeats a large part of your argument completly.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,01:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think i read somewhere that a single volcano erupted, a huge area of land was destroyed, and ash completly bclogged up the sky, preventing sunlight getting in and therefore all plantlife and therefore wildlife died. Now, please tell me human weapons are more damaging to the environment than that.<span id='postcolor'>

Gladly. The biggest hydrogen bomb ever detonated (To my knowledge) knicknamed Bravo was set off in the pacific ocean. It was hundreds of times more powerful than the nukes that were used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fallout hit islands more than 200 miles away from ground zero infecting native islanders (Not to mention every wild animal in that 200 mile radius that didnt get vaporized) with acute radiation poisoning. It was also responsible for the death of a Japanese fisherman on a ship called The Lucky Dragon. Keeping in mind that this was meant to be nothing more than a test, and was never "meant" to hurt anything.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,01:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, i'm pretty sure if any animals had the intelligence to understand the benefits of medicine, education and  and such things that humans have brought to this world (remembering theres other things apart from nukes). Not everyone is a depressed maniac pacifist, i'm perfectly happy in my life. Personally i enjoy all the evils humanity has produced such as Computers, TV, winter sports and football. I can explain them being so happy without such things by saying that they have no clue that Cars and Medicine and everything else exists. They see a plane and they'll think its a bird or something, we feed them pills they'll think its dinner. They may be intelligent but they'd never understand such things, if they did i'm prettyy sure they'd be much like us. Remeber that humans used to be like animals, and as they developed they got into killing etc..up to today. What makes you think dolphins would be any different? O yeah, because they're stupid and will never develop things like we have, which defeats a large part of your argument completly.<span id='postcolor'>

Once again, they have no use for such things due their "uncanny" ability to co-exist with nature just fine the way it is. Something that we, the supposedly more advanced race, still has yet to experience.

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No animals are smarter than human beings on this planet. Thats how it goes.

With intelligence, comes power. Sadly enough, with power comes stupidity. That is why some people kill for fun since "it doesnt really matter". Why do people hunt, when theres plenty of food in the supermarket, which just go waisted if noone buys it. For fun i tell ya!

And yes, we are still animals, flockanimals, meaning that we want to keep our "hurd" safe and living for all costs, including killing animals for our own safety.

Since our lives have become lesser and lesser threatening, we instead of just killing for our own safety, also sacrifice animals for luxury stuff like cosmetics.

Thats how the riddle goes.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,10:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">O yeah, because they're stupid and will never develop things like we have, which defeats a large part of your argument completly.<span id='postcolor'>

Dolphins, and in fact most marine mammals are perfectly adapted for life in their environment. They have no need of the things we have 'created'. Simply because a species does not have a comparable level of technology does not make it stupid. I've seen humans with a level of intelligence and common sense that would make you're average amoeba wince (if it could). tounge.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Aug. 20 2002,01:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With intelligence, comes power. Sadly enough, with power comes stupidity<span id='postcolor'>

Hence, animals are smarter! tounge.gif

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"Once again, they have no use for such things due their "uncanny" ability to co-exist with nature just fine the way it is. Something that we, the supposedly more advanced race, still has yet to experience."

We have experienced it, but we moved beyond it. We evolved. What you are talking about is the law of nature, which basically says that the strong will survive. A blind animal will die. So will any animal with a serious enough mental of physical handicap. This is a fact everywhere EXCEPT with humans, where we will do our damndest to make sure those that probably should die will stay alive. Through medications, hospitals and what not we have prolonged the life (and suffering) of many people. We to would have no need for medicines and many other things if we accepted natures law and simply succumb to it. But we wont accept that and we will do anything we can to get around it, to get above it. I think herrings would do it to, if they had the chance.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Aug. 20 2002,01:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think herrings would do it to, if they had the chance.<span id='postcolor'>

Or the means with which to do so. A fish's fins are meant to stear it through the water with as little resistance as possible, not to errect great structures or analyze meteorites. Hence, these things are simply not required for it to live a full life. All we have thats different than they is the means with which to explore our own curiosity, and saddly enough, to expand our greed.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,09:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,00:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since I don't have to kill Fluffy Bunny myself, I am quite content with the system.

My armpits smell nice and my concience is clear smile.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Your concience is as cloudy as the skies of Seatte, because you, sir, are a hypocrite pure and simple. The only factor that lets you believe your concience is clear is because that friendly industry is there to kill animals for you. What if it wasn't?<span id='postcolor'>

How am I a hypocrite? I never said anyhting that I am against animals getting killed.

I am all for it. I thought that I made that clear. I wouldn't like to do it myself, but that is why we have the friendly industry for.

Again: I am all for animal testing.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,02:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wouldn't like to do it myself, but that is why we have the friendly industry for.<span id='postcolor'>

This doesnt seem hypocritical to you? What would happen if there were no industry?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,11:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wow.gif4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,02wow.gif4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wouldn't like to do it myself, but that is why we have the friendly industry for.<span id='postcolor'>

This doesnt seem hypocritical to you? What would happen if there were no industry?<span id='postcolor'>

No it doesnt. I don't like cleaning public toilets either, but that doesn't mean I have anything against the idea of somebody else cleaning them.

Without the industry? The question is kind of pointless when it comes to animal testing. As an individual I don't have the resources to do what the industry does.

As for food, I would kill the animal myself. I have done so before (whacked a reindeer with a shovel during the survival training during my service time). It tasted good.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Aug. 20 2002,10:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No animals are smarter than human beings on this planet. Thats how it goes.

With intelligence, comes power.<span id='postcolor'>

To make a statement like this, you would first need to define 'intelligence'. What makes a creature intelligent? The ability to conform to our ideals of what a smart creature should do?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,02:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No it doesnt. I don't like cleaning public toilets either, but that doesn't mean I have anything against the idea of somebody else cleaning them.

Without the industry? The question is kind of pointless when it comes to animal testing. As an individual I don't have the resources to do what the industry does.

As for food, I would kill the animal myself. I have done so before (whacked a reindeer with a shovel during the survival training during my service time). It tasted good.<span id='postcolor'>

A good portion of my argument stems from hypocrisy alone. If youre at home with doing these things yourself, then you'll have my respect.

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