Animal testing

[Oligo 1]

I made a new thread to continue this discussion.

Quote from Aculaud:

"As far as testing goes, this is really a whole other discussion. My argument is, although we may have gotten every bit of medical knoledge we have from the testing of medicine on animals, we're still enslaving and torturing them for it. I still think that if we want to know if something will work on a human, then thats what we should be testing on."

You might not know this, but there IS extensive testing of new medicines on humans. The route for approval goes like this:

-Extensive animal testing (required by law) to ascertain the functioning and safety of new drug

-Phase I human testing with a small number of healthy volunteers to test the safety of the product.

-Phase II human testing with a small number of sick volunteers to test the efficacy of the product.

-Phase III human testing with a large number of sick and healthy volunteers to extensively evaluate the safety and efficacy of the product.

-Approval for general use.

-Animal testing of each manufacturing lot (required by law) to make sure there are no contaminations in the manufacturing process and that the lot is safe.

So for every pill you take, animals have died. They don't just die for new medicines, they also die for each new lot of old medicines.

[Guest]

I fully support animal testing. I know that it is sad to see that cute little cat get stuffed with drugs or whatever, but realise that animals are not human. It is much better to have safe medicines for human use then to save the lives of cute animals.

[LauryThorn 0]

Animal testing is not a "nice" thing.

However, having your family member slowly die to, say, polio because

there are no medicines or vaccine in this case, is even less "nice".

But what about cosmetics being tested on animals?

[ralphwiggum 6]

it is sad..but for medical reasons, as long as it's reasonable, animal testing is understandable. however, i oppose testing of perfumes and such...those are not essential to human's survival...

[Oligo 1]

Animal testing is definitely not a nice thing, but it has to be done in order to save human lives. And believe me, it really sucks if you're the person who has to do it, if you have one bit of empathy in you. The only way then is to repeat to yourself: "This will save lives..."

Cosmetics testing is stupid. Animals are dying for our vanity. It's just like hunting and not eating what you have killed.

By the way, all those cosmetics that say "not tested on animals" are telling a nice little lie. See, the finished product is maybe not tested on animals, but the raw materials are. Otherwise they could not sell the product, because testing of raw materials on animals is required by law.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 20 2002,08:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Cosmetics testing is stupid. Animals are dying for our vanity. It's just like hunting and not eating what you have killed.<span id='postcolor'>

As always people always seem to think of that when they are talking about animal testing but very seldom when they use the products.

The simple thing reality is: If you don't want your armpits to smell then fluffy bunny gets it.

[ralphwiggum 6]

or they can just wash their armpit

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,08:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The simple thing reality is: If you don't want your armpits to smell then fluffy bunny gets it.<span id='postcolor'>

There is even peer pressure for the use of cosmetics. Try not using deodorants and see what you colleagues and co-workers think.  

Peer pressure = Fluffy bunny WILL get it or else...

[Aculaud 0]

What i'm hearing so far from everyone except Oligo is elitism. The general populace thinks they are better than animals just because we are human and they aren't. This is stupidity. Its in the science, my fellow humans, we are mammals, hence we are animals, no different than they.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,09:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What i'm hearing so far from everyone except Oligo is elitism. The general populace thinks they are better than animals just because we are human and they aren't. This is stupidity. Its in the science, my fellow humans, we are mammals, hence we are animals, no different than they.<span id='postcolor'>

We are predators. Yes. I think that a human life is infinitely more worth then the life of an animal. As far as I am concerned animals are food.

That doesn't mean that I support unnecessary torture of animals, but as long as there is something to gain for us humans: hell yeah.

It has nothing to do with science and biology. It is about our ethical position. You could argue that killing bacteria is bad since they are living creatures too.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

I'm all for animal testing. Quite frankly i'd rather have mitzy the cat from the LA gutters die painfully than a human being. Or course, i look at my own pets and i don't for the life of me want to see them get kidnapped and tested on, but i realise it has to be done on animals like them.

Activists only complain about animal testing (and pretty much everything else) because its fashionable, i'm pretty sure if they developed a disease they wouldn't at all mind using drugs tested on animals. If you asked anyone - ok, you're gonna die very painfully and horribly over about 3 months, you won't be able to breath and eventually you'll suffocate as the mush that was your lungs clogs up your windpipe, then your brain will explode, unless of course you take this pill that was tested on a stray cat in Pakistan - i'm very sure they'll take it in an instant

Fact remains humans are more important to save than animals. Critisize the human race all you want but if it came down to saving 10 or so stray dogs or preventing 100 million odd people from dying of a disease any sane person would surely let the testing go ahead, and if they wouldn't simply because they think animals have rights and we should let them build their own cities and create their own governments etc... then imho they're mental

Its unofrtunate that animals are suffering, but it has to be done, and it would probably be less sad if activists would stop whining about it all the time.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

woops

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Im so glad I dont take any medical drugs....... And I use nice deoderants not animal tested And we must this question, ehrn was the last time a fluffy bunny dropped a nuclear bomb? When was the last time they ran a coal powerplant smogging the skies? Humans are the worst thing to happen to this world. We have not helped them with all our technolagy. If we didnt drive cars, then there would be no need to stitch them up with our technolagy when they got ran over. That guy in the Matrix is right, us humans are a plague. We have destroyed much of the world, and we will keep on going until there is nothing left to destroy. They kill other animals, but they do nothing as close to the Genocide done by humans. What is our excuse? Animals are dumb? I would completely disagree with that claim. Animals have hearing and site well above us. they show intelligence. We cant do things they do, so why should we expect them to do things we can do? And never forget, animals are the Space Pioneers! remember Luki the Soviet dog. We slughter animals and breed them in a cruel world to die, but if it is done to a human, it is a major crime. In case you are wondering, yes I am a vegeterian. I refuse to support the cruel and evil meat corporations who say the way they treat animals in kind and consideret! In New Zealand I once wtached an interview were some fat rich snob was saying that pigs put in to little pens were they cant even move is confortable for them! I think that the only species that deserve suffering from humans are humans. If I could chsoe one species to be eliminated for the good of the world, it would be us humans, the scum of the planet. Thank you for listning for my dark little rave. You may noe call me crazy, critisice me, and call animals dumb. You may say that God said it was ok to kill animals, do what you like, but I stand on my own judgment.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,09:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We are predators. Yes. I think that a human life is infinitely more worth then the life of an animal. As far as I am concerned animals are food.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with the conclusion, but not with the reasoning. We are predators, yes, but we are also animals and therefore no better in any way than other animals. Nevertheless, since it is common in nature to further the cause of yourself and your own species, I think we have a right to eat other animals and to use them in other ways to further our survival as long as we don't unnecessarily kill or torture other animals (which is waste and unnecessarily cruelty).

Having said this, I hope more developed aliens don't ever throw this back at our faces.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You could argue that killing bacteria is bad since they are living creatures too.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sure you know by now that a lot of bacteria attack us. I never said anything about not defending yourself.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fact remains humans are more important to save than animals. Critisize the human race all you want but if it came down to saving 10 or so stray dogs or preventing 100 million odd people from dying of a disease any sane person would surely let the testing go ahead, and if they wouldn't simply because they think animals have rights and we should let them build their own cities and create their own governments etc... then imho they're mental<span id='postcolor'>

Oh is that it? We're more importaint because we can do things like rule eachother and develope the ability to talk? Its not like we're born with these things; we have to learn just like anything else would have to learn. Scientists have tought gorillas to use sign language. Its not impossible that an animal could speak english. Anyone who says different is afraid.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Aug. 20 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with the conclusion, but not with the reasoning. We are predators, yes, but we are also animals and therefore no better in any way than other animals. Nevertheless, since it is common in nature to further the cause of yourself and your own species, I think we have a right to eat other animals and to use them in other ways to further our survival as long as we don't unnecessarily kill or torture other animals (which is waste and unnecessarily cruelty).<span id='postcolor'>

As I said it doesn't have anything to do with biology. It is ethics only. With our current system of values, animals are less worth then human beings.

A minority, like Aculaud don't agree with that system of values. It is however a minority.

Since I don't have to kill Fluffy Bunny myself, I am quite content with the system.

My armpits smell nice and my concience is clear

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Aug. 20 2002,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im so glad I dont take any medical drugs....... And I use nice deoderants not animal tested And we must this question, ehrn was the last time a fluffy bunny dropped a nuclear bomb? When was the last time they ran a coal powerplant smogging the skies? Humans are the worst thing to happen to this world. We have not helped them with all our technolagy. If we didnt drive cars, then there would be no need to stitch them up with our technolagy when they got ran over. That guy in the Matrix is right, us humans are a plague. We have destroyed much of the world, and we will keep on going until there is nothing left to destroy. They kill other animals, but they do nothing as close to the Genocide done by humans. What is our excuse? Animals are dumb? I would completely disagree with that claim. Animals have hearing and site well above us. they show intelligence. We cant do things they do, so why should we expect them to do things we can do? And never forget, animals are the Space Pioneers! remember Luki the Soviet dog. We slughter animals and breed them in a cruel world to die, but if it is done to a human, it is a major crime. In case you are wondering, yes I am a vegeterian. I refuse to support the cruel and evil meat corporations who say the way they treat animals in kind and consideret! In New Zealand I once wtached an interview were some fat rich snob was saying that pigs put in to little pens were they cant even move is confortable for them! I think that the only species that deserve suffering from humans are humans. If I could chsoe one species to be eliminated for the good of the world, it would be us humans, the scum of the planet. Thank you for listning for my dark little rave. You may noe call me crazy, critisice me, and call animals dumb. You may say that God said it was ok to kill animals, do what you like, but I stand on my own judgment.<span id='postcolor'>

You're SOOO on my cool list!!!

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Aug. 20 2002,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im so glad I dont take any medical drugs....... And I use nice deoderants not animal tested And we must this question, ehrn was the last time a fluffy bunny dropped a nuclear bomb? When was the last time they ran a coal powerplant smogging the skies? Humans are the worst thing to happen to this world. We have not helped them with all our technolagy. If we didnt drive cars, then there would be no need to stitch them up with our technolagy when they got ran over. That guy in the Matrix is right, us humans are a plague. We have destroyed much of the world, and we will keep on going until there is nothing left to destroy. They kill other animals, but they do nothing as close to the Genocide done by humans. What is our excuse? Animals are dumb? I would completely disagree with that claim. Animals have hearing and site well above us. they show intelligence. We cant do things they do, so why should we expect them to do things we can do? And never forget, animals are the Space Pioneers! remember Luki the Soviet dog. We slughter animals and breed them in a cruel world to die, but if it is done to a human, it is a major crime. In case you are wondering, yes I am a vegeterian. I refuse to support the cruel and evil meat corporations who say the way they treat animals in kind and consideret! In New Zealand I once wtached an interview were some fat rich snob was saying that pigs put in to little pens were they cant even move is confortable for them! I think that the only species that deserve suffering from humans are humans. If I could chsoe one species to be eliminated for the good of the world, it would be us humans, the scum of the planet. Thank you for listning for my dark little rave. You may noe call me crazy, critisice me, and call animals dumb. You may say that God said it was ok to kill animals, do what you like, but I stand on my own judgment.<span id='postcolor'>

I think it all comes down to vegetarians and oacifists thinking they're better than everyone else. Of course, the rest of the world are evil baby eaters but anyone who complains about it is alright. Killing is human nature just as it is animal nature, its probably better to stop complaining about it.

I mean, if people go around thinking everyone in the world should have nail varnish sprayed into their eyes just because of war and a-bombs, then how does that make pacifists better than everyone else? Its easily to say everyone in the world sucks ass and deserves to die like most activists do, but like i said, if it was you or someone you loved who needed their drugs to be animal tested, i'm pretty sure you'd take that option pretty sharpish.

If you won't eat meat it just means more animals will die messily but instead of being put to use will just rot in a warehouse. They will still die in shitty conditions. I can't understand why people would stop eating meat to protect the animals when it just means more will be wasted

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 20 2002,09:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh is that it? We're more importaint because we can do things like rule eachother and develope the ability to talk?<span id='postcolor'>

Because we are stronger. Eat or be eaten.

I would love for you to try to discuss the benifits of being a vegetarian with a hungry lion.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,00:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since I don't have to kill Fluffy Bunny myself, I am quite content with the system.

My armpits smell nice and my concience is clear <span id='postcolor'>

Your concience is as cloudy as the skies of Seatte, because you, sir, are a hypocrite pure and simple. The only factor that lets you believe your concience is clear is because that friendly industry is there to kill animals for you. What if it wasn't?

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 20 2002,00:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would love for you to try to discuss the benifits of being a vegetarian with a hungry lion. <span id='postcolor'>

That hungry lion is in no way part of a murderous and torturous industry that many of us are.

[Oligo 1]

A couple of things I have to clarify for you all:

-No stray dogs or cats or kidnapped pets are ever used for medical animal testing, because there is no telling what diseases/parasites/genetic illnesses/others they might have. Experiments performed with these animals would be worthless. Therefore only special strains of animals carefully bred for experimental purposes are ever used. These animals are fed standardized food, they're raised in standardized environments and they're kept free of diseases and parasites. These animals have no names, because they're not ever tamed. These animals never know any other environment than the shelters they're raised in. In a way, a dog raised in a lab animal shelter lives a more natural life than Fido the tame pooch, because the lab dog lives in a pack of dogs and not in a pack of humans.

-Humans are not the only polluters of environment, we're just the most capable. There have been global environmental catastrophes and mass extinction in the past of Earth caused by the emergence of oxygen generating organisms for example.

-All cosmetics are animal tested, otherwise they could not be sold, since animal testing of raw materials is required by law.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh is that it? We're more importaint because we can do things like rule eachother and develope the ability to talk? Its not like we're born with these things; we have to learn just like anything else would have to learn. Scientists have tought gorillas to use sign language. Its not impossible that an animal could speak english. Anyone who says different is afraid.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it is. Humans are more important than animals. Its useless using the arguement that animals are as intelligent as humans because its blatantly obvious they are not. They may be speaking English soon but i doubt they'll ever build skyscrapers, computers, machines, cars, satellites etc... The government/language thing i put in because thats what most activists seem to want for animals

I mean, if indeed the human race has spawned shedloads of people who go about trying to save the animals by being veggies or just whining, then surely the human race isn't all that bad.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I mean, if people go around thinking everyone in the world should have nail varnish sprayed into their eyes just because of war and a-bombs, then how does that make pacifists better than everyone else? Its easily to say everyone in the world sucks ass and deserves to die like most activists do, but like i said, if it was you or someone you loved who needed their drugs to be animal tested, i'm pretty sure you'd take that option pretty sharpish.

If you won't eat meat it just means more animals will die messily but instead of being put to use will just rot in a warehouse. They will still die in shitty conditions. I can't understand why people would stop eating meat to protect the animals when it just means more will be wasted<span id='postcolor'>

Well, youre about as stereotyipcal as they come, arent ya? You say that activists are wrong for saying people need to die for these things (Which they dont, by the way. Not in so many words at least.), when you forget that it is us who killed first.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ Aug. 20 2002,00:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They may be speaking English soon but i doubt they'll ever build skyscrapers, computers, machines, cars, satellites etc...<span id='postcolor'>

Right. They'll never fuck up the planet as bad as we have. Because, unlike us, they are advanced enough to co-exist with nature just fine the way it is. We, on the other hand, have had to invent everything we possibly could in order to live a "Normal life".