"Opening up Arma 3 to paid user-made content" - How?

[Deadfast 43]

a) Not necessarily from community

I think you underestimate how much of an investment training people who have no previous experience with BIS games would be. Of course, it depends on the position.

b) probably not, but so what?

Well, what exactly is the difference then?

The same quality missions and campaigns and addOns we have now but instead you'll have to pay $5 for each one.

Mind if I ask where you got the source for that?

Edited September 16, 2013 by Deadfast

[Tonci87 163]

Another Potential Problem I see:

If moders are allowed to charge for Mods then we will be less likely to have true Mod compilations. Lets looks at a Project like the BW Mod. You have a quite serious ammount of units, vehicels and weapons in there. What could happen with paid mods is that addon makers rather sell their content piece by piece to maximise income. So might even go down the route to make paid DLCs for their Mod.

Paid User made content is generally a bad idea due to the many potential Problems it can bring.

Mods are what makes this game truly unique, fun and awesome! Don´t try to fix what ain´t broken!

[bad benson 1733]

i'm not quite sure that making lots of mods paid, is what BI is planning (if they have any actual plans at all :p). what i personally am concerned about is the motivations behind modding and the separation of elite circles from the rest of the editing community. even if the plan is just to pick up the "best" mods. i as someone who likes to mod all aspects of the game for fun would be highly annoyed by only a selected group getting access to developer support.

one example that comes to mind is the sudden appearance of females that can operate weapons in dayZ, which was only possible with mlods that were only supplied to the dayZ team due to involvement with the devs. people wanted to do that for ages. it's things like that, that i worry about. it could become very frustrating for modders that have no access to that kind of favouritism.

and in addition there will be more motivation to not share methods and knowledge no matter how exactly money is brought into the "game".

just improve mod support for everyone with improved tools (no need to reinvent the wheel though) or the releasing of plugins that modders have no access to and also additional documentation. BI can still pick up good mods and make them commercial. the problem is not lack of incentive, which can be seen if you look at the quality of mods.

another thing is making the engine more open in some regards to help the modders, which is also not really happening. one (bad) example is the attachment system or the lack of ability to influence certain aspects of the game via simple commands (ragdoll command, improved EHs) to eliminate the need for overly complicated methods to achieve simple things.

[windies 11]

Even if it's something like how the ACR DLC was done whereby it's more of a DLC, what happens if the mod team decides to quit and the mod/DLC is a shambles/buggy/undone? What if they lose a member or 2 and they can't finish their work, Would BI be stuck with fixing the mod/addon/DLC or would they just let it sit in turmoil? What would be the standards that need to be met before the mod/addon could be sold? This is just a few of the concerns that I have, if they mean selling mod content as official DLC's.

There's too many questions and waaay too many negatives that I can see happening unless you contractually hold the modders to completion and then defining that completion on a case by case basis could be a nightmare.

[pressytcn 10]

i agree dayz had a huge impact on arma but for old arma vets it had more of a negative impact than a positive and most even hate the mod and feel that i ruined the game for them

one thing that dayz mod did wich no other arma mod has done before is picking up and using loads of user made content rarely used on servers like fhg remington weapon pack the rh weapons and other mods included you might want to have on the server you play on

wasteland went and made the i44 wasteland wich is a pretty interisting mix it feels more like a big ww2 skirmish so i think it's up to the mission makers to make the game popular by making a game mode wich attrackt people we had zombies for years and we had mods that allowed medical aspects in the mission i am legend from somewere in 2011 there where even a sleep feature i can't remeber if there where food involved

the mod i find most interesting is cwr 2 no doubt that it wassen't done over night and i would gladely donate to that mod but not by buying the mod like a product i now have a licence to but the option to to say hey these guys do a great job and they support their users of the mod let's donate a lilttle the donation could even be more than they would have charged for the mod

also what about mods like daf wich used some vehicles from bw mod and the glt f16

now let's say i bourgt a mod let's say the new f18 for arma 3 that would be fun for a few hours to use in single player mission i created

now i want to use it online i think many people would expect the mod they bourght like a game has mp support

now to some more contraversial stuff we all know armaholic that site has been running for years providing us with free mods editor help and much more i read somwhere inthere that foxhounds computer couldn't run arma 2 wouldn't it be nice if use the users could donate a little to the guy who basicly promotes all the newest mods all the latest news and does alot for the community so that he to could play the game we all enjoy those are some of my thourghts

and as tonci87 said

Paid User made content is generally a bad idea due to the many potential Problems it can bring.

Mods are what makes this game truly unique, fun and awesome! Don´t try to fix what ain´t broken!

[GottyPlays 10]

I really hope that this won't go anywhere...

right now the only thing arma 3 offers is: User made missions and User made addons. Who is playing bis missions onlne? nobody.

who still plays the showcases? after you play them a couple of times they become boring, and you start downloading scenarios on the workshop.

if modders will start charging how many people would pay to play that wasteland mission?(80% of the serverlist)

even if that mission would be super cool and everything, how could we try them before putting a single dollar? even bis missions tend to break easily, the game itself is full of bugs, how could we ensure that the bucks im giving for that particular addon are worth it?

How many of you would pay for that shotgun that is missing from the base game?

i would not for sure, i payed for a game, not for an engine that granted me access to user made missions.

this sounds plain silly, maybe because bis intentions are not crystal clear however i hope that bis will clarify their plans.

[grillob3 11]

Don´t try to fix what ain´t broken!

Yes!!!Bis i guess is pretty easy to figure out what is broken that needs to be fixed!!!

[David77 10]

This will not end well... if they do decide to let authors sell content.

[Chaingunfighter 103]

This would only really work if the mods were top-tier and also warranted having a cost to be able to use. The main problem (at least at the moment) seems to be how a lot of people on this forum are complaining about Arma 3's full release not really being a 'full-release' worth $60. Asking them to then pay for usermade content would probably only increase the amount of complaints.

I feel that a better solution would be similar to what Valve has done;

Mod-makers and teams who show excellent capability at creating mods could be 'hired' or paid to create a DLC which would be driven mainly by that team. This is how popular series' like Portal, Counter-Strike and Garry's Mod became full games, because the creators had content close-to or even above what Valve had done before (At least in Valve's minds)

[Rolling 1]

My conditions for this to be acceptable would be as follows.

A) The current copy paste vehicle weapons would have to go, finish the content already in before asking us to pay for more.

B) The mods would be offered in LITE versions as well, similar to DLC.

C) Paid Mods aren't offered in small/frequent packs, keep them full DLC sized and not one every month.

D) No huge quality discrepancies.

[BL1P 35]

Doesn't High Command originate from a mod? Maybe it's a question of including good usermade features in DLC's. BIS could buy a mod, modify it and turn it into their own as a basic feature of the game. But ofcourse I can see the clash when a mod suddenly turns into something you'd have to pay for, especially if the mod becomes unavailable. I honestly don't mind, but I sure can see if others do.

edit - mixed up Warfare with High command

Almost... Warfare comes from a user created Mission style called CTI back in OFP which was then created as a module in the editor by BIS for Arma2 and renamed to Warfare.

The first mission was MFCTI where MF = (Mike Melvin)

http://mfcti.sourceforge.net/

Other notable user created CTI missions are CRCTI and BEWarfare the rest are basically ports/edits of these three main missions (some are very extensive edits but edits none the less, my own included).

They are all Missions and not MODs some people seem to be making the mistake of thinking a mission is a mod.

[gammadust 12]

Synthesis: (27/09/2013) (OP updated) (thanks kju for suggesting this and other alive threads to be moved from beta forum)

Questions

• Who actually is paying for paid mods? Bohemia itself or players?
  
• Does this goal relate in any way with already publicised DLCs? (paid and supporter edition bundles)
  
• What is the scope of addons being envisioned by this idea?
  
• What would be the standards that need to be met before the mod/addon could be sold?
  

Suggested Implementations/Alternatives

• donations (=no change)
  
• Arma 3 addon store
  
• add a donnate button in Steam (missions AND mods)
  
• improve access to documentation and engine to the general community
  
• Bohemia curated contest (mods are evaluated to be part of a paid DLC - authors provide Full AND Lite versions)
  
• Community self-managed crowdfunding (donation goal funds split to mod author and host of donation payments)
  

Cons

• concerns of excessive emerging of paid for mods (majority or all mods becoming paid)
  
• concerns/fears that in allowing money into loop would lead to
  more serious/increased disputes between members
  friendship loss
  end of multiplayer games
  
• concerns of Bohemia relying itself on the modders exploitation to add content, profiting significantly in the process
  
• concerns/fears that modders would shut themselves in closing their sources and methods afraid to lose potential gains otherwise, eventually leading to their disappearance
  
• fear of Arma losing identity (paid content and Arma don't go together)
  
• even higher pressure on modders in regards to users expectations
  
• concerns of removal of the fun in modding as an hobby
  
• concerns/fear of being forced to pay for addons
  
• concerns of mods being paid for individually (microtransactions?)
  
• concerns of community fragmentation due to price of mods
  
• concerns of no additional protection, still much room for abuse (given existing cases of Bohemia content having been ripped)
  
• engine limitations severely constraining quality of paid-for mods
  
• increased risk of Bohemia being exposed to copyright violations
  
• addon updating issues
  
• concerns regarding piracy of addons (sharing them via p2p networks)
  
• limitations in the creation of Mod Compilations (modders would prefer to maximize income by providing mods into pieces)
  
• elitism between modders with privileged access to developers know-how and those without
  
• after-release support issues
  

Pros

• additional protection for dedicated modders
  
• increased quality in addons
  
• still there would be great availability of free mods
  
• quantity of mods would only increase
  
• game lasting longer in time
  
• prospect of settling the Steam concerns favourably
  
• potential to broaden the scope of arma (mutants, aliens, zombies, ww2, ww1, new worlds, etc)
  
• allowing for a paid portfolio making platform, increasing motivation
  
• more effective recruiting by Bohemia
  

Current Situation

• no one sends donations even to very popular and requested islands
  
• not much motivation to share because of much too high expectations/demands from players
  
• no understanding of players for the amount of work hours a mod requires
  
• perception that players don't want to support modders in furthering their efforts
  
• low quality addons
  
• ungratefulness of Steam Workshop current state (should be paid for)
  
• difficulty in making donations (ability to donate through Steam welcome)
  
• don´t try to fix what ain´t broken
  

Conditions

• high quality standards/professionalism as a requirement for charging
  
• ability for players to opt-out of buying (assuming but no block from access to servers with paid versions)
  
• Bis choosing mods that qualify / NOT being Bis choosing
  
• only if for multiplayer
  
• only after Steam Workshop technically allows for mods (config type) and legal issues are clear
  
• only after Arma 3 is "completed"
  
• full scrutiny of applicants to prevent IP conflicts
  
• only with warranty of after release support
  
• price points of base game vs paid dlcs
  
• only for mods which attract additional player base (ie. DayZ)
  
• it could only work if the pbos become locked
  
• arrangements between BIS and the community
  
• only if addons have a LITE counterpart
  
• not if released as small/frequent packs
  
• consistency in quality between mods
  

Another alternative idea that came to me during the discussion and the recurring theme of "keep it donation based", further reinforced by this thread:

• Bohemia/Community could support a web platform where modders could submit any of their mods to, and following the Kickstarter model, a funding/deadline goal could be estabilshed (from modest to more ambitious ones), which upon being reached would give way to the release of the mod.
  
• The focus would be not so much in assuring a modder in getting funding, but would serve as an incentive to players/users to actually contribute donations, hinting them also of the likelyhood of the goals being reached depending on popularity.
  
• Example - 100€ by January 2014 - 20 people contributing 5€ would "kickstart" the project (released openly to everyone) - those contributing would estabilish a previledged relation with the author and benefit from further support for it).
  
• A modder would estabilish a threshold from which his dedication would be properly compensated from his pov, but similarly to the kickstarter model, the goals could absolutely be surpassed. Donations would be shared between the modder and the host of the crowfunding platform.
  

This could be done out of any Steam/Steamworks complications. Imo cooperation with Steam to support such a thing is as outlandish as "Steam providing a Paypal Donation button" on their own platform (or is it?)

Edited September 27, 2013 by gammadust

[mercenar1e 10]

This will not end well... if they do decide to let authors sell content.

Nothing is stopping the authors from implementing it now... I think they have a "let's see where this goes" mindset. One thing is for sure, the modding scene will change If whatever BI does is financially successful for the modders.

[galzohar 31]

I can barely get people to install free mods. In fact, we currently don't require any mods for the PvP missions on the ArmA Israel IDF server simply because people wouldn't bother to install them. Paid mods simply won't work if we're talking about mods that act like paid DLC and the player must pay for them in order to install them.

They should first find a way to let people join a modded server with all the right mods installed without having to do searches and/or use 3rd party software (which might be easy to use for me and some others, but just won't work for joe public who doesn't even know what a mod is or where to read about it if he's even willing to read more than 4 words of text).

[mazza 1]

Just make sure all the folks with $ sign blindness ensure that compensation payments are made retrospectively for people who have developed mods over the last 10 years as part of a community for free. Was wondering how long it would take for this to old chestnut to open.

[islesfan186 83]

I can see something like ACE being a paid for addon, since the amount of work and people working on it is pretty big. I would be pretty pissed pay for something like a unit reskin though.

[[aps]gnat 28]

cat thrown into pigeons

NOTICE: I will be seeking compensation/my commission for any future PAID mods released where I can show that my own releases were used as source material (code, script, configs, original concepts etc) or my assistance/services rendered (forums/PMs/Skype etc) were used for development.

..... And so begins the disintegration of the previous utopian ArmA community.

[gammadust 12]

^^ You ALWAYS HAVE and HAD that RIGHT, to the extent that is deamed reasonable. "Rights are best exercised instead of claimed"

But you say "utopian" even considering that currently exercising the above right is or may be in many cases impratical?

[STALKERGB 6]

^^ You ALWAYS HAVE and HAD that RIGHT, to the extent that is deamed reasonable. "Rights are best exercised instead of claimed"

But you say "utopian" even considering that currently exercising the above right is or may be in many cases impratical?

Not the right to monetary compensation, all addon/mission makers really have is the right to being credited for work they have done/help they provide that others then use.

[gammadust 12]

As long as no affected licensing is not violated, nothing is limiting a modder to create an addon under such conditions and beyhond allowing donations, requesting a payment, ie. usually modellers are tied to Bohemia tools which disallows the latter, yet out of those umbrellas there is no such restriction.

Also if Bohemia intents to implement this idea, it would be a requirement for them to lax the terms of such licensing to fullfil the goal.

[ProfTournesol 956]

In fact it's extremely hard to discuss Marek's idea without knowing more.

[JohnnieConcrete 1]

uSERS SHOULD NOT BE PAYED MONEY FOR CONTENT THEY HAVE CREATED. uSERS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR USER MADE CONTENT. iF BOHEMIA EMPLOYED THEM THEN YES YOU CAN GET PAID

[Pac Man 10]

Gnat;2519449']... And so begins the disintegration of the previous utopian ArmA community.

^ This. No matter how cleanly BIS would slice the cake, it won't end well.

[eymerich 11]

^ This. No matter how cleanly BIS would slice the cake, it won't end well.

plus 1

(since i couldn't post "+1")

[pd3 25]

There are some people in the community, such as RobaloAS, the guys at JSRS, ThombsonB (who did the flashpoint game mode) - and many others.

All of these people deserve a way to make a bit of money off their efforts, or at least accept donations to further their projects, whichever they deem appropriate.

All three of the ones mentioned have made tremendous contributions to A2 and should be encouraged and those like them - to make more content in the future. They made things worth paying for.