"Opening up Arma 3 to paid user-made content" - How?

[p1nga 23]

I'm not sure i would like to place a Pay To Use charge on any add-on i worked on, but i sure wouldn't mind an official way to collect donations. When you have spent 500-1000 hours working on something it sure sounds nice to get something back from those in the community that can afford it and feel like it is worthy.

[PuFu 4591]

http://www.moddb.com/news/the-uncertain-future-of-paid-mods

[gossamersolid 155]

When you have spent 500-1000 hours working on something it sure sounds nice to get something back from those in the community that can afford it and feel like it is worthy.

As much as I'd love to get donations for my gamemode(s) (mainly for the reason of paying for my servers), I don't think I'd ever put my work up behind a paywall.

People can cry that they deserve to get paid after spending 1000s of hours working on a mod, but you don't. They can pout and decide to pull their work and leave the community, fine. Somebody will eventually replace you/your mod, it's just a matter of time.

Setup a patreon page, setup a paypal account and let your fans know that you accept donations.

Tl;dr - you aren't special, you're replacable.

[Macser 776]

Why did you cherry pick that particular part of the post?The preceding sentence stated the same thing you did,essentially.But you left it out.

I'm not sure i would like to place a Pay To Use charge on any add-on i worked on

People can cry that they deserve to get paid after spending 1000s of hours working on a mod, but you don't. They can pout and decide to pull their work and leave the community, fine. Somebody will eventually replace you/your mod, it's just a matter of time.

Setup a patreon page, setup a paypal account and let your fans know that you accept donations.

So you're telling people what they should be doing then? I have no plans to get into paid modding. Or a donation system. But I sure as hell don't feel I have the right to block someone else, or make them feel guilty for it. Much less threaten them with being shunned.

[gossamersolid 155]

So you're telling people what they should be doing then? I have no plans to get into paid modding. Or a donation system. But I sure as hell don't feel I have the right to block someone else, or make them feel guilty for it. Much less threaten them with being shunned.

I'm providing my opinion. People are replaceable. If you feel like you can't continue modding without receiving pay, then you should look for another line of work.

[Jackal326 1158]

I'm providing my opinion.

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has got one, and none of them smell of roses.

[roshnak 41]

So you're telling people what they should be doing then? I have no plans to get into paid modding. Or a donation system. But I sure as hell don't feel I have the right to block someone else, or make them feel guilty for it. Much less threaten them with being shunned.

If someone is volutarily leaving the community as suggested in the post you quoted, are they being shunned? In GossamerSolid's scenario, wouldn't it be modders who were threatening to leave?

Also, you should stop accusing people of trying to block modders attempts to get paid. That's not what's happening. People are just voicing their opinions, and GossamerSolid has as much right to say that modders don't deserve to be paid as anyone else has to say that modders do deserve to get paid.

And if it's not okay for people who are against paid mods to say things that might make people who are for paid mods feel guilty, then how can we have a discussion? That's the same thing as saying that people don't have the right to make others feel guilty for not wanting to pay for mods, which basically everyone on the pro-paid mods side has done repeatedly in this thread.

[Macser 776]

He's saying, not implying, or suggesting, that people are replaceable. That's not an opinion. Or an argument. That's a statement. If you replace someone, aren't you effectively turning your back on them?

Most people are voicing their opinions. But to what end? Hardly just for the sake of it? I assume most people expect to get a result of some kind. People aren't posting in here just for the fun of it. There are aspects of the discussion that bothers everyone in some way. Some want the idea of paid mods crushed. Some do not. Some want a middle ground.

But when you tell a person they are replaceable, are you not telling them how little they're worth to you?

How else can you interpret that?

Sometimes text doesn't convey emotion. So I'll just say, I'm not angrily bashing my keyboard over here.

Even if it comes across that way. :)

[gossamersolid 155]

But when you tell a person they are replaceable

I'm going to guess that either you live in "la la land" or that you haven't worked in the software industry before.

You can even look in this community. People have made their exit(s) and others have taken their work and continued it. This has happened multiple times.

I really do hate to be cynical all the time, but I'm just trying to convey the truth here. It's especially bad in the games industry (From what I've read). People will get laid off all the time after a product is finished because they are deemed replaceable/unneeded.

Edited April 29, 2015 by GossamerSolid

[Macser 776]

Do you usually address complete strangers like that?

No. I haven't worked in the software industry.Have you ever worked in stage and theatre lighting?

:confused:

I've been a member almost as long as you,I'm aware of the turnover. You are addressing your statements to a specific group of people you have a problem with, and telling them they are replaceable. I don't think that's the same as talking about the turnover rate of mod communities or the software industry. Or any industry.

Sincerely. I'm not trying to cause offence. But can you see how that might sound like an attack?

I mean the way you phrased it.

[gammadust 12]

The scenario GossamerSolid put forward (of one leaving) was not even suggested by P1nGa, and is uncalled for as a response to him. And Gossamer than equates those who would choose to leave (not P1ngas case) with those who "cry that they deserve to get paid after spending 1000s of hours working on a mod" when P1ngas' not crying nor is he taking a stance of "deserving" anything, at best expressing his wish that he would appreciate it.

So Gossamer is using P1ngas input just to express his opinion in general about the whole thing, except that Gossamer proceeds as if P1ngas could be the target of his logic "Somebody will eventually replace you/your mod" / "you aren't special, you're replacable". When cleary he should not be his target. In which case Gossamer appears to just being mindlessly ranting about some thing and letting someone taking flak intended for others.

Nevermind if his logic regarding the issue at hand is reasonable or not.

[p1nga 23]

Thank You gammadust,

[gossamersolid 155]

Didn't even notice he quoted your post and lumped it in with mine. Sweet.

[.kju 3240]

Talent is only "replaceable" if there is new talent coming and taking the length to get to the same level.

I would argue there is a very clear downward trend from OFP to A3. This is is the core problem - not paid mods yes or no.

[ProfTournesol 956]

;2929682']Talent is only "replaceable" if there is new talent coming and taking the length to get to the same level.

I would argue there is a very clear downward trend from OFP to A3. This is is the core problem - not paid mods yes or no.

Indeed.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

;2929682']Talent is only "replaceable" if there is new talent coming and taking the length to get to the same level.

I would argue there is a very clear downward trend from OFP to A3. This is is the core problem - not paid mods yes or no.

It was much easier to reach the "talent cap" and "blend in" in the OFP days than today, and it increased with every single iteration of the game. Amount of skill/knowledge required to make a bicycle vs a space shuttle have very different caps.

Besides, we've seen people come and go and we've seen people develop from being helpless to helpful. I agree with the overall sentiment of what you're trying to say, but it's not as black and white as you have presented it to be.

[sttosin 67]

It was much easier to reach the "talent cap" and "blend in" in the OFP days than today, and it increased with every single iteration of the game. Amount of skill/knowledge required to make a bicycle vs a space shuttle have very different caps.

Besides, we've seen people come and go and we've seen people develop from being helpless to helpful. I agree with the overall sentiment of what you're trying to say, but it's not as black and white as you have presented it to be.

Indeed.

I do agree with kju on experience requiring time. Maybe with some of the ground work laid down by community ahead, that time is shortened.

My favorite thread at the moment by far. It's bringing everything together...

[Tonci87 163]

;2929682']Talent is only "replaceable" if there is new talent coming and taking the length to get to the same level.

I would argue there is a very clear downward trend from OFP to A3. This is is the core problem - not paid mods yes or no.

Agree. But I think it would become even worse if mods became payware due to a possibly of much lower willingness to share trade secrets and due to encrypted PBOs. Newcomers would have a very hard time.

BIS really needs to improve the modding toolset.

[.kju 3240]

@ Sniperwolf572

It was not meant as black and white - even though one can read it as such. To me the focus on the discussion is just totally wrong.

If the developments are driven by the commercial companies (mainly Valve and publishers) no wonder they will push for money making.

The three majors (UE, Unity, CE) have decided to release the source of their engines (and tools?) essentially for everyone and for free.

This could help to combat complexity and higher time requirements.

To me the question is what strategy BI should go for improve fundamentally the modding situation again. This is what this community should discuss (too).

PS: Plus this VR on the (near) horizon with potential fundamental changes coming as well.

Edited April 30, 2015 by .kju [PvPscene]

[PuFu 4591]

what does encrypted pbos have to do with anything.

BI can keep the toolset as it is, for legacy sake at least. i have said this before though:

1. more docu with examples

2. external plugins and scripts - most ppl coming from other games and industries would rather use their own tools and workflows. The fact that o2 importers (obj and fbx) can't handle more options (selection sets for instance) makes simple things like importing stuff long winded.

In theory i would prefer to have to use o2 as little as possible in order to get stuff in. being able to import every single lod, mem point, selection set and texture in from external softare (alwaren blender plugin is a good exaple) would make things more accessible to most. I am also talking about animations translators and alike.

a viewer/shader similar to buldozer and would also make previewing stuff a lot easier.

but let's be honest, arma is not a sdk, the tools are a bit frustrating to use in themselves...out that together with (getting slowly better) docs that are superficial or lack applicability is not gonna make things easier to anyone..

[ProfTournesol 956]

what does encrypted pbos have to do with anything.

BI can keep the toolset as it is, for legacy sake at least. i have said this before though:

1. more docu with examples

2. external plugins and scripts - most ppl coming from other games and industries would rather use their own tools and workflows. The fact that o2 importers (obj and fbx) can't handle more options (selection sets for instance) makes simple things like importing stuff long winded.

In theory i would prefer to have to use o2 as little as possible in order to get stuff in. being able to import every single lod, mem point, selection set and texture in from external softare (alwaren blender plugin is a good exaple) would make things more accessible to most. I am also talking about animations translators and alike.

a viewer/shader similar to buldozer and would also make previewing stuff a lot easier.

but let's be honest, arma is not a sdk, the tools are a bit frustrating to use in themselves...out that together with (getting slowly better) docs that are superficial or lack applicability is not gonna make things easier to anyone..

That's where a part of the MANW contest money could have been efficiently invested, together with building (and paying) a community "mod- helping" team, leaded by a modding community manager such as kju. My 2 cents though.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

;2929748']@ Sniperwolf572

It was not meant as black and white - even one can read it as such. To me the focus on the discussion is just totally wrong.

If the developments are driven by the commercial companies (mainly Valve and publishers) no wonder they will push for money making.

The three majors (UE' date=' Unity, CE) have decided to release the source of their engines (and tools?) essentially for everyone and for free.

This could help to combat complexity and higher time requirements.

To me the question is what strategy BI should go for improve fundamentally the modding situation again. This is what this community should discuss (too).

PS: Plus this VR on the (near) horizon with potential fundamental changes coming as well.[/quote']

Yes, I agree with that. I read your post in a slightly different tone earlier.

[tortuosit 485]

BI should spread their money more than they did in MANW. I'm convinced many people would adjust their opinion on paid modding. But pssst, don't tell them.

My decision is clear. I do not want this. Period, over and out.

[biggerdave 56]

That's where a part of the MANW contest money could have been efficiently invested, together with building (and paying) a community "mod- helping" team, leaded by a modding community manager such as kju. My 2 cents though.

I don't know about that. You'd have "community politics" deciding who does and doesn't get any money. Perhaps not a problem for the community right now, but back in the day of stuff like FFUR? Just replace Valve/Zenimax getting the lions share with whatever egomaniac is putting together "compilation mods".

[ProfTournesol 956]

I don't know about that. You'd have "community politics" deciding who does and doesn't get any money. Perhaps not a problem for the community right now, but back in the day of stuff like FFUR? Just replace Valve/Zenimax getting the lions share with whatever egomaniac is putting together "compilation mods".

Not what i said. I was (trying) to say that it would have been more efficient to create (or hire) a team of experienced modders to help the rest of the community to mod.