Flares = Useless?

[Vasily.B 529]

Can someone provide some sources or an explanation as to how counter measures work versus different AA systems (IR and Radar)? I'm deeply interested in learning this 

Heat guided missles and radar are diferent. Heat is source that can be misleaded by flares. Missle is flying to heat source (on sky there is not much of them, mainly flying machines or animals - but this second are too few heat) so missle is going straight to its target, and when flares will be deployed (they are more hot in group than jet/heli) missle will "think" the flares are its target and will hit it. Radar guided missles have their own "mini-radar" and its route is corrected by the machine from where it was fired (jet or heli) , and such missle cannot be missleaded by the flares, you need some electro-magnetic "dust" to misslead it, as it is guided by radar.

[domokun 515]

you need some electro-magnetic "dust" to misslead it, as it is guided by radar.

This is known as "chaff" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)

Because the chaff is the name of the husk of cereal grains that is traditionally discarded:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff

But I have to agree that in the Arma series airbourne countermeasure seem rather unbalanced:

A2: they were practically useless

A3: they seem totally efficient

So does anyone have statistics on their real-world effectiveness?

Or is that classified ;)

[lev 21]

Really? Did you even tried to complete one of official presentation? Try to pass "Combat Helicopters" presentation and tell me how you did it. There is no marked AA zones (how i would know where they are?!) and every AA misle flying from nowhere or some random position hits me. EVERY SINGE ONE! It is not normal and less realistic. My uncle was pilot of combat transport planes and he knows a little about flares, of you shoot two of them, missle can hit you, if you shoot 4 of them there is 50/50 % chance of hit, but if you use them as the game offers (spam of flares) there is no possible chance of hit (in combat chopper), that why the big transport planes use them in so much ammount.

 

I'm quite surprised that this thread got revived after so long.  I was just randomly browsing this forum too and noticed that this topic looked familiar.

 

Anyhow, I've played and beaten every single official showcase and campaign on elite difficulty with AI set to expert and I assure you it is possible.  First of all if you mean showcase by "presentation", then there is no showcase called "Combat Helicopters".  There is a "Helicopters" showcase and a "Gunships" showcase.  Which one do you want me to explain the strategy for?

 

In a previous post I made in this topic, I explained a test I created with AA manpads setup in a town while I flew transport.  In multiple tests I was able to dodge at least one missile using flares while performing a very dangerous flyover of the AO.  So the claim that every AA missile will always hit is simply not true.  I've also flown fixed wing and helicopters in multiple scenarios in Arma (pvp and vsAI) and I've managed to dodge AA missiles before.  I'm not saying I never get shot down or never crash but I've dodged enough that I don't see how anyone can claim 100% AA missile effectiveness.  Also unless you have a more official source besides anecdotal evidence of flares effectiveness, I can't accept a single story from an uncle who flies transport PLANES but happens to be an expert of flares in combat HELICOPTERS.  As I've said the first time this topic came up, unless people have some credible proof that flares are 100% effective versus an AA missile then I see no reason for BI to start working on an updated CM simulation in what is primarily an infantry game.

[Vasily.B 529]

OK, problem is back, and as thread is already created, i will not open new one. I just discover flares are still useless. I tried 7 times, and missile allways hit me, from MANPADS.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

9 hours ago, Vasily.B said:

OK, problem is back, and as thread is already created, i will not open new one. I just discover flares are still useless. I tried 7 times, and missile allways hit me, from MANPADS.

 

They do work, lots of factors go into whether it is successful, and they aren't supposed to be "click to dodge the missile" countermeasures.

 

One factor most dont consider is latency. What was your ping to the server? If its high, it definitely has less chance of working, if the missile is fired from server-owned AA

[Vasily.B 529]

It was Single player, i was standing in air with chopper, but it can be mods fault - RHS. Off course no way i can contact developers.

[nuxil 2]

Hello. I havent  played A3 for years now, i just like to check the forum once in a while.
But i do remember this problem, In A2 we just depbo one of the files. copied out the flare script. changed it a bit so it would deflect missiles. then just added it to the mission init and it would overwriting existing flare code. no addons was needed.
Im sure this is possible in A3 too. maybe even someone has done it already.

[ineptaphid 6413]

On 1/22/2017 at 10:45 AM, Vasily.B said:

It was Single player, i was standing in air with chopper, but it can be mods fault - RHS. Off course no way i can contact developers.

You do perform evasive maneuvers right? If you keep flying straight the missile will continue right up to the aircraft. As soon as you release flares, pull a sharp dive or turn so that the missile hits the flares instead of you. Flares are absolutely effective. To show how good they are-spawn an enemy aircraft following some waypoints and spawn yourself as a MANPAD unit-fire a few missiles and you will see the ai use flares quite well

[Vasily.B 529]

17 hours ago, ineptaphid said:

You do perform evasive maneuvers right? If you keep flying straight the missile will continue right up to the aircraft. As soon as you release flares, pull a sharp dive or turn so that the missile hits the flares instead of you. Flares are absolutely effective. To show how good they are-spawn an enemy aircraft following some waypoints and spawn yourself as a MANPAD unit-fire a few missiles and you will see the ai use flares quite well

Yest i was trying that for test - for AI flares are very effective, but flying MI-24 with full speed (me inside), and missile came from side (around 600M) and flares didnt worked..... 6 times in a row.

[R0adki11 3945]

On 25/01/2017 at 11:32 AM, Vasily.B said:

Yest i was trying that for test - for AI flares are very effective, but flying MI-24 with full speed (me inside), and missile came from side (around 600M) and flares didnt worked..... 6 times in a row.

Well then it certainly is the mod you are using. Does it happen in default Arma3 aircraft?

[Vasily.B 529]

Didnt checked it. But as i writed it may be mod fault. Thing is, there is no way i can report it.

[R0adki11 3945]

On 27/01/2017 at 4:08 PM, Vasily.B said:

Didnt checked it. But as i writed it may be mod fault. Thing is, there is no way i can report it.

Why not? Just notify the mod makers through the normal channels. 

[pooroldspike 128]

I play on the King of the Hill multiplayer servers and the flares there seem to work realistically, but whether the same applies to singleplayer I don't know.

Based on 1200 hours KOTH play, I estimate that when firing a Titan Compact shoulder-launched missile at an airborne target that's popping flares, I get a hit approx 60 percent of the time against a juicy Mohawk and Hummingbird, but the hit chance drops for other targets such as-

Pawnee 50%

Blackfish 45 %

Blackfoot 40%

Kajman 30% 

Neophron 30%

Wipeout 25%

 

Those figures are just my own estimates, they're not official.

Maybe the developers have realistically made some targets harder to hit than others because of a lower infra-red or radar signature? Or maybe they've made some flares better than others. Incidentally is chaff also released bundled in with the flares?

PS- some soft targets like the Mohawk, Hummingbird and Pawnee are almost guaranteed to crash after taking one missile hit, but the others usually need 2 or even 3 hits to shoot them down.  

 

 

[Wiki 1558]

I wouldn't say flares are useless.

Just random.

 

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Vasily.B 529]

19 hours ago, R0adki11 said:

Why not? Just notify the mod makers through the normal channels. 

Good joke.

[R0adki11 3945]

8 hours ago, Vasily.B said:

Good joke.

I don't understand how you think i was making a joke, i was offering advice on how to address the issue 

[shomu1 193]

Vasily's on RHS' blacklist.

[SpacePilotMax 47]

Maybe that will come with the radar upgrade in jets DLC?

[wld427 1705]

Flares on my aircraft work just fine.

[jakeplissken 77]

On 06/09/2013 at 11:30 PM, PlacidBox said:

This seems to be the chronic issue with people thinking that AA is too powerful, they go balls in without planning and wonder why 12 units dedicated just to killing them are allowed to succeed. If ANY OTHER unit in the game did this they'd die nearly instantly, but somehow that doesn't apply to aircraft?

As a half-decent pilot in game, I find that flares are stupidly effective. Being able to fly over a group of 4 of the new tracked AA vehicles and survive them shooting their entire payload of missiles at you is completely crazy. If you get surprised by one of those things within about 2km of you, you should be dead. The inability for AA units to achieve their *only role* is one of the worst bits of balancing in the game at the moment.

Flares should be a "press countermeasures to not die" button, they should be used as a way for aircraft to disengage when on the edge of the SAM's engagement distance, stopping the aircraft from going too close

 

And they can just use guns within 2KM and nothing can stop that. Especially with the radar on top.