Armor Improvement System (AIS)

[Damian90 696]

1. About Drozd. Projects may have existed, but as you see additional launchers are not installed. Drozd still has huge blind zones, and more appear as it spends countermeasures since it cannot reload. I also doubt it can provide any protection against APFSDSs, perform well against RPG-30 (and Javelin is a sure kill). Trophy eliminates most of these disadvantages, AMAP takes care of all (though I imagine its the most expensive protection).

Well, "Drozd" is old and abandoned project really. And yes "Drozd" was designed only to defeat HEAT warheads, not APFSDS. RPG-30 is greatly overestimated and can be countered by simple modification in software of most APS systems.

And no, "Trophy" will not eliminate all threats.

Currently the most promising APS systems are AMAP-ADS and "Quick Kill".

2. Wikipedia says Trophy uses a bunch of metal pellets to intercept threats. Some military papers assert it uses a narrow stream of metal fragments too. If it is the case, then its (somewhat) similar to Arena.

Wikipedia is poor source, I strongly advise caution when reading it. "Trophy" uses multiple explsoively formed penetrators or MEFP.

2. AMAP does not specify what countermeasures they use. Its not really an EFP it seems. But you can read an interesting article on gizmag about AMAP-ADS, where the author tries to figure out how exactly it works. Its about Rheinmetal live tests. I wouldn't say its modus operandi is completly different.

No, AMAP-ADS do not use EFP, it is a different solution, I just forgot how it is called.

4. Not popular against tougher armor. Roof armor is hopelessly outmatched. I thought that since APSs track incoming projectiles and determine whether they're going to miss or not, a valid tactic would be to make your missile delibirately miss by some meters, and when its directly above the tank very quickly rotate the warhead downwards (kinda like Quick Kill) and shoot an EFP. They say EFPs perform better over long distances, thats why I thought about them first.

No, roof armor is not hopelessly outmached, today are allready avaiable lightweight solutions that make even tandem HEAT warheads obsolete. Armor evolution is far more advanced than anti tank weapons evolution, however due to classified nature of vehicles protection, it is not well known for general public, thus we have this myth of super anti tank weapons.

As for your proposal of "tactic", sorry, this is complete fantasy. How you imagine to that such projectile won't be shot down by APS? Or do you plan to detonate warhead before it will hit the target? EFP's have low penetration capabilities, while HEAT warhead to be fully effective need to be detonated at a very precise distance from target, which is several mm to several cm.

Anything moving slower than KE penetrator and has to connect is going to be shot down by APSs regardless of angle, if they continue to develop as they do. You have to be both far enough to not trigger APS too early and close enough to avoid deterioration of the stream. EFPs seem suitable.

Actually future in defeating heavy armored vehicles lies in kinetic energy projectiles fired... from tank guns and similiar weapons. HEAT and EFP's are slowly coming to end of their practical potential. This is because their penetration mostly depends on warhead calliber, thus to achieve maximum penetration, their size become impractical.

PS Though as I suggested the more accessible approach is to just shoot the tank with a heavy MG to damage radars, countermeasures, reload mechanism etc, and then just shoot rpg-29 repeatedly.

HMG might not damage APS components, radars can work even with multiple holes from bullets, countermeassures can use insensitive explosive materials, thus holes from bullets won't disable them completely, reloading mechanism can be very robust as well, or can be completely absent depending on APS design.

And firing RPG of any kind repeatedly might be a very dangerous to shooter.

Really, fighting against AFV's is no that easy as one might think, especially against modern AFV's.

[bakerman 247]

^ OK play nice now and stay on topic. This isn't the "best APS in the world" thread. If you have any suggestions for the mod regarding APS go ahead, but please no more of this.

[hieronymus 10]

I have a growing feeling our little conversation turns into armchair generals' exchange.

I'm, again, not a pro when it comes to these matters, and my hypotheses are just that, hypotheses. You, on the other hand, demonstrate confidence that suggests you are a professional in this sphere and have access to classified information, including about systems that haven't officially seen action yet, and even whose designers can't be too sure about their performance. If you don't have such authority, I'd recommend refraining from making assertive claims.

Anyone who's professional in any field knows it takes a lot of studying (theoretical and statistical - the latter sometimes reveals bewildering conclusions!) and firsthand experience to start to understand nuances, complexities and vulnerabilities of systems operating in real life conditions. Projecting into the future is a risky endeavor even then.

Assertive talk should be taken with a grain of salt, as my professor said once. More assertive the talk, bigger the grain.

PS I know a bit when it comes to material science, and what information you can access working in tech Uni suggests that (if they don't use something considerably different), given firsthand data on top armor thickness, roof protection of practically any tank is very poor and can be defeated quite easily by (given official data on performance) outdated rockets/systems.

Okay, lets comply with Bakerman's request.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Hieronymus

[Damian90 696]

PS I know a bit when it comes to material science, and what information you can access working in tech Uni suggests that (if they don't use something considerably different), given firsthand data on top armor thickness, roof protection of practically any tank is very poor and can be defeated quite easily by (given official data on performance) outdated rockets/systems.

New types of explosive reactive armor is answer, these new types of ERA works on principle of linear shaped charges cutting enemy projectiles in to pieces (literally). Such types of armor for now are Ukrainian "Knife" and "Duplet", however more countries might soon follow this way of armor protection.

I have a growing feeling our little conversation turns into armchair generals' exchange.

I'm, again, not a pro when it comes to these matters, and my hypotheses are just that, hypotheses. You, on the other hand, demonstrate confidence that suggests you are a professional in this sphere and have access to classified information, including about systems that haven't officially seen action yet, and even whose designers can't be too sure about their performance. If you don't have such authority, I'd recommend refraining from making assertive claims.

Anyone who's professional in any field knows it takes a lot of studying (theoretical and statistical - the latter sometimes reveals bewildering conclusions!) and firsthand experience to start to understand nuances, complexities and vulnerabilities of systems operating in real life conditions. Projecting into the future is a risky endeavor even then.

Assertive talk should be taken with a grain of salt, as my professor said once. More assertive the talk, bigger the grain.

I study these matters on my own by more than a decade right now, of course some things are classified and beyond my reach, other however not. When I finish my education, I might actually work closer to these things. ;)

[saul 24]

Then came the Kinetic rod strikes, nuke EMPs, and the Chinese. Your arguments are now invalid. Have a good day!!!

[bakerman 247]

Hieronymus, Damian90 and Saul that's three posts in a row disregarding my request to stay on topic. You are wasting my time because I carefully read each post looking for good suggestions. Next time I will request for this thread to be locked.

[bakerman 247]

So I started modelling today for the first time. Here's the result:

http://i.imgur.com/ULakkvR.jpg

50 points to the person who can tell me what this is. Hint, it's from my country. ;)

[Damian90 696]

So I started modelling today for the first time. Here's the result:

http://i.imgur.com/ULakkvR.jpg

50 points to the person who can tell me what this is. Hint, it's from my country. ;)

Seems to be a Mongoose-1 interceptor missile for LEDS-150 system.

[bakerman 247]

^ 50 internets for you sir :)

Here's a short slow-motion capture of the LEDS-150 with Mongoose-1 in action for those interested.

It will be included in the next armscor beta update.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpOwsKoyY_c&feature=youtu.be

Those weird sounds you're hearing at the end is the blast fragments hitting the ground.

Next up is the Mongoose-3 and sabot petals. :cool:

*Puts on Dean Hall mask*

I'm sorry for those patiently waiting for a release, I decided to improve some core features before I release anything.

Trust me this is some really good stuff worth waiting for.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Bakerman

[vengeance1 50]

Nice! Very impressive.

[maturin 12]

No, roof armor is not hopelessly outmached, today are allready avaiable lightweight solutions that make even tandem HEAT warheads obsolete.

So tanks are invulnerable from modern HEAT warheads from every angle? Bullshit. Source, or bullshit.

[Damian90 696]

So tanks are invulnerable from modern HEAT warheads from every angle? Bullshit. Source, or bullshit.

Not from every angle, there are still problems with technological openings in armor protection nececary for sights, hatches, gun etc. However ballistic tests of new kinds of explosive reactive armors proved that it is possible to achieve complete protection from tandem warheads. There is video of tests of such reactive armor, type in to YouTube "Duplet anti tandem reactive armor" you should find video from tests.

Also one of high rank Israeli officers in interview for one military magazine in my country, reported that indeed one Merkava Mk4 was hit in Lebanon in to turret roof at shallow angle, no effects on tank, however tank commander get some trauma from concussion shock. Tank was hit by Kornet ATGM.

And now finish OT or Bakerman will be angry.

[maturin 12]

Tanks are never going to be covered with ERA from every angle, as you well know. I know that (as-yet unfielded) ERA is making leaps and bounds in effectiveness, but that's doesn't have any bearing on your statement about roof armor. The roof armor is almost always bare in designs so far, on the rear 2/3 of the tank.

Merkava Mk4 was hit in Lebanon in to turret roof at shallow angle, no effects on tank, however tank commander get some trauma from concussion shock. Tank was hit by Kornet ATGM.

Well, yeah, the Kornet takes a direct path to the target. Hitting the roof could have meant an armor LOS of two full meters!

The Abrams has taken an RPG to the top of the turret from a multi-story building. AT weapons can always fail to penetrate for some reason or another. They're very fragile.

But the roof will remain a weak spot for the foreseeable future, I think, unless top-attack warheads get so common that designers divert weight from elsewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpOwsKoyY_c

Nice! How many blast fragments are there? Do they actually have to strike the incoming missile or are they there to pose a hazard to infantry?

[bakerman 247]

Please stay on topic.

Blast fragments are of a random quantity between 50-100 for performance reasons. Getting the APS to react quickly enough without grinding your PC to a halt required some magic. So having blast fragments interact with projectiles would start breaking things in terms of performance and it wouldn't add anything to the game since you wouldn't ever notice it.

[maddogx 13]

Please stay on topic.

I would like to reinforce this sentiment, since apparently being asked twice by the thread author isn't enough.

[NordKindchen 12]

Oh how beautiful the explosion looks......not....I am so waiting for Blastcore

[bakerman 247]

You want blastcore, we get it. :j:

Like I said before I'm creating new particle effects for everything I add to the game. The video uses the stock effects because I like to get everything working as it should before I throw glitter at it.

[lordprimate 159]

Baker, thanks for continuing work on this. i eagerly await your update!!

[mikey74 168]

Bakerman

You want blastcore, we get it.

Like I said before I'm creating new particle effects for everything I add to the game. The video uses the stock effects because I like to get everything working as it should before I throw glitter at it.

Something I should have thought of before AISS release. lol Cant wait for your next update. :D

[bakerman 247]

Just a small update.

Got a MK3A2 grenade model textured and done for the grenade module. When I gave the M67 and V40 fragmentation I figured players would want a offensive grenade for some situations.

Also part of the grenade module is a hand thrown nano uav, which I'm calling the seeker for now, it opens up some pretty interesting tactics for those players who want to embrace the future side of ARMA3.

I'm currently working on the fancy 20mm ammo types for Dana's NEOPUP. Here's a short video of the gun if you want to check it out.

[DaViSFiT 21]

Hey im checking every day your thread and now i see a heavy infantrie gun? :P Looks very powerfull and leave normal guns mostly obsolete? :P

[bakerman 247]

Just note that it's not part of AIS, it's part of ARMSCOR which I'm also working on, but the ammo I'm developing will be included in AIS some way or another. The NEOPUP is a magazine fed 20mm grenade launcher marketed as a personal assault weapon and it can be compared to a XM25, although the XM25 is a lot more complicated and expensive. Although powerful it's a specialized weapon and it's not going to replace your standard assault rifle any time soon.

[bakerman 247]

Another update.

Zelectec has joined the (previously non-existing) AIS team, bringing in some fresh ideas and new skills.:cool:

The latest development branch update contains new vehicles, one of which is the Kuma MBT. It has what appears to be some sort of APS installed, but I need help identifying what it is, I've included pictures below. That being said all 3 of the tanks in ARMA3 have modeled active protection systems, it would be strange if Bohemia didn't include some sort of working APS in one of the future patches. The update also contains new infrared grenades, which totally makes my infrared beacons I was modelling obsolete :p, but I will still script some extra functionality for them.

[1920x1080 ~373KB]

http://i.imgur.com/U5B2tqq.jpg

[1920x1080 ~265KB]

http://i.imgur.com/nl4ABP6.jpg

[hieronymus 10]

Maybe they designed their own APS?

Man, that Kuma tank looks ugly..

Concerning those hand thrown micro UAVs (should we really call them unmanned at this point? lol), I think its more reasonable to use a slowly descending 40-mm "grenade" for these purposes, with greater distance/altitude and simplicity.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Hieronymus

[shiftysean 21]

Let me just start of by thanking you Bakerman. You upped the armors game in the....well game:p. Love this mod, and I follow it like a loyal dog xD (though mostly lurking :P)

After some searching about, I found out that it's actually 2 modules.

first being the ROSY (Rapid Obscuring System), and the second is the SAS Situational Awareness System. It's all a bit technical for me, and I'm in no way an expert, but here's a link to the rheinmetall upgrade explaining the Rosy and SAS systems. http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/detail_1408.php