AI X-Ray vision

[ammodawg 10]

Whats the deal with AI having X-Ray vision through trees and bushes? My squad starts calling targets before we even move through an area of trees with no way of actually seeing the enemy. On the other side the enemy AI has no problem accurately firing on my position when concealed.

When playing the Combined Arms showcase, as soon as my unit gets out of the helicopter they start calling out enemy inf and I can't even see the base through the trees. Shortly after the enemy inf starts firing on us. I still can't even see the base due to the trees.

Sorry I'm new to the Arma series and don't know if this is how it is intended to be.

Edited August 9, 2013 by ammodawg

[maturin 12]

They're seeing and shooting through gaps in the foliage. They only see through foliage when the edges of the model are glitched or inaccurate.

[Jackal326 1158]

They're seeing and shooting through gaps in the foliage. They only see through foliage when the edges of the model are glitched or inaccurate.

No that is simply wrong - the AI sees all and knows all. Its been the case since OFP, though was vastly improved in ArmA1&2 (though still wasn't great) and seems to have got a lot worse in ArmA3. The AI can accurately track and hit you at ranges far outreaching a player's ability to see, as well as know exactly where you are even after breaking contact and fleeing over 1km+. Fog and smoke/dust also have no effect on the AI. This is balanced out by the fact that the AI also can't hit the broad side of an APC at ranges less than 10m and react like retarded melons when the fighting gets up close. I feel the AI has taken a serious hit since ArmA2, although that could just be due to me having played the latter couple of years of ArmA2 using ACE.

[TSAndrey 1]

AI has Spiderman senses. Today I flanked a prone AI shooting my friend, and while he was facing a completely other direction, I peeked leaning with my scope, and the AI (somehow) turned around and shoot me. How did he know I was behind him?

[medusacadenza 6]

No that is simply wrong - the AI sees all and knows all. Its been the case since OFP, though was vastly improved in ArmA1&2 (though still wasn't great) and seems to have got a lot worse in ArmA3. The AI can accurately track and hit you at ranges far outreaching a player's ability to see, as well as know exactly where you are even after breaking contact and fleeing over 1km+. Fog and smoke/dust also have no effect on the AI. This is balanced out by the fact that the AI also can't hit the broad side of an APC at ranges less than 10m and react like retarded melons when the fighting gets up close. I feel the AI has taken a serious hit since ArmA2, although that could just be due to me having played the latter couple of years of ArmA2 using ACE.

I agree, the AI is worse in ARMA 3 at this point than in ARMA 2.

[elpresidente 1]

Regarding AI, you guys should use the Development Branch and check this thread:

Development Branch AI Discussion

Regarding X-ray vision, the devs stated multiple times (and provided proof)that the AI does not see trough bushes. I'll try to find it.

[f2k sel 164]

I think the problem is not that they can see through bushes so can a player the difference is a player cannot recognize the unit in most cases because of the camo.

[KeyCat 131]

AI has Spiderman senses. Today I flanked a prone AI shooting my friend, and while he was facing a completely other direction, I peeked leaning with my scope, and the AI (somehow) turned around and shoot me. How did he know I was behind him?

Yes, the AI spider sense is still there. It's impossible to sneak up on a AI from behind and he will always hear you at ~6-7 m range even if you crawl 10 cm/minute (tested at 0.25 and 0.50 skill on Veteran). Hope they improve this, IMOH it should be possible to sneak up on (or past) them from behind at least for classes without to much gear (i.e sniper/specops) to make stealth missions possible.

/KC

[Jackal326 1158]

Regarding X-ray vision, the devs stated multiple times (and provided proof)that the AI does not see trough bushes. I'll try to find it.

The only proof I need is what I have experienced first hand, and that is the AI handing me and my mates our asses on a plate from 900m whilst seeing (and firing) through trees, bushes and vehicles and being able to see through smoke, vegetation and even terrain.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Jackal326
Fixed a typo

[maturin 12]

Pics or it didn't happen. No one has ever been able to reproduce AI x-ray vision empirically. It's always breathless tall tales like old men talking about the fish that got away when it was dark and you could hardly see. UFO enthusiasts writ small.

There's a very short list of glitches regarding AI vision.

Bushes and buildings hide you. Period.

For fuck's sake, A2 AI never even engage at 900m, not with barrets or even tank shells half the time.

Yes, the AI spider sense is still there. It's impossible to sneak up on a AI from behind and he will always hear you at ~6-7 m range even if you crawl 10 cm/minute (tested at 0.25 and 0.50 skill on Veteran).

That's a config/balance issue, not magical X-ray vision. Now run out to your backyard with 30kg of kitchen appliances strapped to your vest and try to sneak up on a cat by crawling through a vegetable garden. Any stealth mission that requires you get within five meters of an enemy is suicidally desperate.

Edited August 11, 2013 by maturin

[eymerich 11]

Regarding AI, you guys should use the Development Branch and check this thread:

Development Branch AI Discussion

Regarding X-ray vision, the devs stated multiple times (and provided proof)that the AI does not see trough bushes. I'll try to find it.

I did a mission on chernarus.

Ai see, beyond any reasonable doubt, trough bush and weed...

---------- Post added at 05:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

Pics or it didn't happen. No one has ever been able to reproduce AI x-ray vision empirically. It's always breathless tall tales like old men talking about the fish that got away when it was dark and you could hardly see. UFO enthusiasts writ small.

There's a very short list of glitches regarding AI vision.

Bushes and buildings hide you. Period.

For fuck's sake, A2 AI never even engage at 900m, not with barrets or even tank shells half the time.

That's a config/balance issue, not magical X-ray vision. Now run out to your backyard with 30kg of kitchen appliances strapped to your vest and try to sneak up on a cat by crawling through a vegetable garden. Any stealth mission that requires you get within five meters of an enemy is suicidally desperate.

It's quite simple to reproduce: put a soldier in status prone and you'll see he is able to track the enemy by moving his gun just like a cheater in battlefield (even if you are not able to see anything). This usually happen when Ai discover you or your Ai discover the enemy...

Not by chance, Takistan didn't have the weed chernarus had...

[Jackal326 1158]

...There's a very short list of glitches regarding AI vision....

Yes, and its growing fast.

...Bushes and buildings hide you. Period...

No they don't, the AI miraculously know you're there and "track" you with their weapons as Eymerich stated, even if they can't "see" you they can hear or "sense" you.

...For fuck's sake, A2 AI never even engage at 900m, not with barrets or even tank shells half the time...

Exactly my point, the AI has taken a nose dive in terms of quality/immersion by being super-efficient killing machines now. I know this game is set in the future, but come on...

...That's a config/balance issue...

...that BIS need to fix.

[gammadust 12]

No they don't, the AI miraculously know you're there and "track" you with their weapons as Eymerich stated, even if they can't "see" you they can hear or "sense" you..

I know for a fact this is not true. Looking at it at face value it just may _appear_ so...

AI keeps track of enemies based on a _perceived_ position not _actual_ position of enemy. What you're seeing is the normal extrapolation of the enemy position based on its last _visible_ position AND _movement_. So if a enemy stops or changes direction (behind an occlusion) the extrapolation the AI becomes inacurate despite still following that "perception". The effect you are seeing is exacerbated to the extreme if there are other AI on the same group around with visual on the target, which WILL share the actual enemy position with pinpoint accuracy, this may lead to the notion that AI "sees" enemies through walls. This sharing is without delay and as accurate to the AI that actual has sight on enemy (and indeed BI could make this sharing less absolute to mimic human behaviour).

I am also interested in this abnormal AI behaviour and have made some debugging tests that may help show my point. I'll upload a video or 2 with the experiments.

[kylania 567]

I know for a fact this is not true. Looking at it at face value it just may _appear_ so...

AI keeps track of enemies based on a _perceived_ position not _actual_ position of enemy. What you're seeing is the normal extrapolation of the enemy position based on its last _visible_ position AND _movement_.

This is from ArmA2 but shows this concept. Notice the AI keeps firing where it first saw me and thought I was on the left of the bush instead of where I moved to on the right.

And a similar situation with smoke instead of bushes:

[gammadust 12]

^^ exacly, though i haven't gone through much tests in vegetation. I have made also a take on the general issue (maybe too long ~9mins it shows more stuff related), but should be plenty to dispell any myths around.

This is not to say that in some fringe circumstances the expected detection behaviour is not overuled by other facts, such as lacking/imperfect visibility model lods, or the current broken hearshot perception. But basically AI does what should do in this department.

I do agree that it could be improved (see the point i make half-way through about the AI perception placing an enemy somewhere, place which has no enemy presence whatsoever - suggesting a fallback to previously perceived/actual conicidence).

(btw this is on current beta - no dev branch)

Edited August 11, 2013 by gammadust

[elpresidente 1]

As already pointed out, the AI sometimes will target your last kown position / where they think you are.

If they saw you disappearing behind a bush, then they'll shoot on that bush.

[froggyluv 2130]

@Gamma -video says set to Private so a no show here. I think Kylania's video is strong evidence as well as countless other video's disproving this old wives tale. Viewblock geometry works very well except for a few trees in Chernarus if I recall correctly. The soldier in the bush is rotating correctly because it's so close that the player is audible. Speaking of which, that enemy soldier rotation in close proximity is way better than Arma 3's :rolleyes:

Edit: Video works now Gamma. Now THATS how to run a test! That's almost as ideal a detection system we could wish for when seeing it broken down like that. The only problem being the point you mentioned around 7:20, in which they can't seem to grasp where the player has gone when falsely extrapolating the players movement to the right. Is the enemy AI LOS always the same as their perceived enemy location trace? Meaning, it would be nice if we could see them sweeping their heads with a rapid LOS ray also playing out

Edited August 11, 2013 by froggyluv

[KeyCat 131]

That's a config/balance issue, not magical X-ray vision.

Never said it was X-ray vision.

Now run out to your backyard with 30kg of kitchen appliances strapped to your vest and try to sneak up on a cat by crawling through a vegetable garden.

I agree, sneaking up on someone with full combat gear is not going to happen but having one class like sniper/spotter/specops able to move silently by slow crawling would IMHO open up for more varied types of stealth missions with silent takedowns which for some reason is fun ;)

This sharing is without delay and as accurate to the AI that actual has sight on enemy (and indeed BI could make this sharing less absolute to mimic human behaviour).

I think adding a random delay and/or more "fuzziness" to this AI sharing would go a long way in making the AI more convincing and as you say human like.

Btw, nice video and test script.

/KC

Edited August 11, 2013 by KeyCat

[maturin 12]

Never said it was X-ray vision.

I agree, sneaking up on someone with full combat gear is not going to happen but having one class like sniper/spotter/specops able to move silently by slow crawling would IMHO open up for more varied types of stealth missions.

I think adding a random delay and/or more "fuzziness" to this AI sharing would go a long way in making the AI more convincing and as you say human like.

Btw, nice video and test script.

/KC

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your issue is off-topic in this thread.

And it's nice to see that the adults have come out to set the record straight.

Lol @ the claim of a repro video, sans link to actually present it.

[gammadust 12]

Lol @ the claim of a repro video, sans link to actually present it.

patience... maturin :)

Here's another one showing the exact behaviour i mentioned up in the earlier post. (sory about the earlier mispublish)

(=2 mins in, bonus matrix revolutions moment in the end between oposing ais :P)

(i say in the video this is unmodified ai, but indeed i have allowfleeing 0, not that it makes a diference in this case)

Opfor leader (OF12_1) has the same coverage script and is the only unit running it. It is currently detecting 2 threats and drawing lines to those perceived positions. Behind the building against him there are 2 blufor units (BF12_7 and BF12_8) they are 100% in coverage from the OF leader. BF12_8 is totaly off the perceived position, yet BF12_7 position is accurately identified. OF leader has OF12_4 sending him the correct position, but as soon as the BF unit goes behind the container there goes the leader's (and BF12_4) perceived accuracy, but only for the short while that his subordinate misses sight of the BF unit, which is later killed.

I think adding a random delay and/or more "fuzziness" to this AI sharing would go a long way in making the AI more convincing and as you say human like.

/KC

This is a solution, unfortunately afaik, is out of reach of modders since these perceived positions read only (nearTargets). And we can't just make any AI forget about an already identified threat.

EDIT:

There is one possible explanation of the AI detection bugging out or not working as intended. You can notice it (@3:35 in the 2nd video), and i have been seeing this in the tests i made:

when the units move, sometimes the their feet go underneath the terrain. I have placed one sensor on each foot (the position i am obtaining with {_unit selectionPosition "leftFoot"}) which sometimes turn the visibility line into red even when the caracter is fully under coverage (meaning it is returning no intersection detected = no coverage). This could mean there is some fringe cases (when model is being animated) where maybe, and this is pure speculation, the engine itself is doing the same and allowing AI to "see" in those very specific circumstances. Though currently the script only check objects intersect (ignores terrain) this should not happen in theory.

Edited August 11, 2013 by gammadust