[DISCUSSION] Control Options Unmaned Ground Vehicles

[ajsarge 10]

With the recent press release/video on PCGames.de, I was curious as to how BI is going to implement the controls for Unmanned Ground Vehicles (UGVs). Thinking about it for a few minutes, there were four options I can up with. If BI already has a set plan they won't change from, what is it?

Terminal

Arma 2 introduced a reaper drone terminal, where you had a menu action that put you into the spotter view with control over the orbit position, height of aircraft, and weapons/laser designation. You moved where you wanted it to fly by opening the map and clicking a new position. On UGVs, this would probably be a top-mounted camera you look through or the weapons system. Running it like this, I'd have problems where you need the vehicle to be mobile in order to provide covering fire for friendly troops, and map-based movement is not conducive to providing this.

IMHO, please do not use this for UGVs, but it's still viable for UAVs (the quad-rotor UAV is another discussion)

Multi Crew

Works like the manned vehicles now. One person would be driving, looking through a forward camera on the vehicle. The other person runs the weapons, and their camera would be similar to the RWS view on the Hunter or Ifrit. To man the vehicle, you would have a menu action (Drive/Gun UGV) at specified UGV terminals or objects (like the UAVs from Arma 2), and your character would hold pose while you drive/gun. The issues I have with this, is when you want AI to control the vehicle, are they going to continue to think they're at the terminal location even when they're next to you in the UGV, are they going to have problems with "becoming" the UGV while their body stays at the terminal, can you make them (or players) show up with the UGV icon in the squad bar while they're connected, and a few more if I keep running with this.

Basically, this would not be my preferred option for control, but I could stand it if done right.

Single Crew

One person, driving and gunning. More typical of "Action" FPS's, the WASD keys would control the body of the vehicle (A/D turns in-place or turns wheels) while the mouse controls the turret and guns. You can switch between the gun camera and drive camera through the / key on the numpad or whatever changes your view options. This doesn't use the extra person like the multi crew, allowing players to be some other role within the mission, and not requiring two AI for a single vehicle. But...this would probably require some coding to add a control like this, people might be up-in-arms about this kind of control being too "Action-y" for a "Realistic" Arma 3 (that's when I remind you that their word isn't "Realism" but "Authenticity"), it might make UGVs a bit overpowered when you have armor and a single person can wreck house when not facing AT.

Compared to the previous two, I'd still prefer this option. If possible it'd be cool to have the camera switch toggle things like locking the turret's movement when in the drive camera, and being in the weapon camera slows the vehicle down so that normal movement in weapon mode is the same speed as slow movement in drive mode.

Command Controlled

Instead of placing the logic for an access point, the vehicle, the UGV module, and a character to run it all, you just place a unit in the editor like any other man or vehicle and let it run. By using the group tool to group the UGV with a squad leader, the squad leader can then order the UGV around like any other unit. If the UGV is player-controlled, they run it like the single-crew option above. Unfortunately, that would require the single-crew control options, you won't be able to take them long distances in helicopters or APCs unless they implement some kind of cargo-loading function standard with everything.

I'd like this option in combination with the Single-Crew. If you want Command-Controlled, you place the UGV in the editor and assign player control, or group it to a squad leader. If you want Single-Crew, you plop down the logic and link the UGV, access station, and player/AI to it like in Arma 2.

So, I'll open it up for discussion. Do you have any opinions about the options I posted above, have a better idea on how BI should go about this, or something else?

[dale0404 5]

Why don't we just wait and find out?

[progamer 14]

The mission designer decides if "UGVs a bit overpowered", BIS does not. He/she can use scripts and mods to change stats and the way it works for his/her mission. They don't even have to use the armed version!

Any improvement from Arma 2's Unmanned vehicles would be great!

I would be very disappointed if they kept arma 2's system because it was good in its time but with ar,a 3 it would be just plain awful!

---------- Post added at 01:52 ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 ----------

They have said UAV's launched from and used on the squad level, which hopefully the Quadrarotor will be pretty easy to setup in the editor.

---------- Post added at 02:05 ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 ----------

Unmanned vehicles are supposed to put humans out of harms way and keep tabs on and possibly engage the enemy if needed. The question is to what extend the Autonomous features are, from flying/driving in a holding pattern to engaging targets with the authorization of a human being.

[killerwhale 1]

arma2 UAVs had invisible driver, horrible, sometimes conflicted with players wishes

[roy86 367]

This is close to my heart so I would be interested in how BIS are planning to deploy the UAVs/UASs and UGVs.

Some possible methods are:

• An Open Loop Remotely Operated Vehicle, where by a Controller(s) issues direct movement and operation commands from terminals to the vehicle and the vehicle performs those actions. (Weapon Stations, R/C cars, Quadcopters etc)
  
• An Autonomous Vehicle, capable of closed loop commands where by a Controller(s) issues a series of commands and the vehicle carries out those in sequence with pre-programmed responses to certain scenarios (like deploy CHAFF against AA missle fire).
  
• An Artificially Intelligent vehicle, capable of closed loop commands where a Controller issues a command and the vehicle decides if and how to carry it out and may respond to certain scenarios (like fly directly at the target if it sees one and get shot down).
  

A2 went with the third type in the MQ-9 Reaper but was not really a functional method to use (not without scripting to disable the AI). This lead to many facepalms :p.

However a working demonstration by BI of UAV deployment was one of the A2 OA SP scenarios involving the apache stricking the Ace of Spades by laser designating from a MH-6X Littlebird. This worked great but could be scripted/built a bit better.

Some good examples of unmanned vehicles by the community are

- Squad UAVs in RQ-11 Raven A http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?134031-RQ-11-Raven-A **Love this one! (Closed Loop Control)

- UGVs http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?146024-UGV-Unmanned-Ground-Vehicles-SWORD-Adunok-M-MRK-27-BT (Open Loop Control)

I look forward to seeing what they have come up with.

Edited August 6, 2013 by roy86
spelling

[chortles 263]

All we have to go on thusfar is that we have this screencap (close-up here) of the PCGames.de video with a brief glimpse of a soldier manning what appears to be a UAV/UGV/USV terminal. Moreover, though it doesn't have a screencap, the prior seconds of video also show that at least one UGV series (if there's more than one in Arma 3) will have both unarmed and armed versions on a common chassis with the armed one bearing a RCWS turret, although there seems to be a hardpoint for a turret or a gun mount on the unarmed version.

[roy86 367]

cheers Chortles, Didn't know about that video.

Found it @6:00

---EDIT added more info----

Based on chortles below, reference frame at 6:09 for UAVs + UGVs

Edited August 6, 2013 by roy86
added reference to video frame

[chortles 263]

You have to rewind some seconds in order to see the "hardpoint" on the unarmed one, and it looks like the turret in this case was mounting the GMG 40 mm. Unfortunately this second look didn't give me any further insight re: what the control options are in-game or which class of or specific unmanned vehicles would be controlled through the terminals, even calling them terminals is just best-guess.

If you look real close in the background when the camera is panned to the right, you might be able to make out the fixed-wing UAVs in the background behind the UGVs; basically the character's movement took him from the fixed-wing UAVs towards the UGVs.

[nmdanny 22]

In my opinion, UAV's should have terminal control with an option to take manual control.

When in terminal control, you should be able to place waypoints(along with a circle waypoint to make it a loop), in each waypoint you should be able to set the altitude, autonomous settings etc..

There should be a preset box pattern to cover an area, like A2, but with the ability to choose different altitudes as well as the length/width of the box. It should be possible to place a box pattern on a unit, that will adjust itself when the target moves.

Another waypoint could be "Land"

There could be many autonomous options, some that I can think of:

-Upon missile lock/fire:

-Disengage current waypoints, and make a new waypoint in the direction opposite of the lock-on source and several km's away. Once you arrive to this waypoint, autoland at designated airbase or return to the previous waypoints.

-Deploy countermeasures and break away from missile.

-If possible, lock onto source and lase it/launch AGM missiles/command fire to launch missiles from an external source.

-Change designated airbase(to which airstrip will the UAV go to, when it's ordered to land)

-Seek targets from a target list, when a target is spotted(and as long as its destroyed):

-Follow it with a mobile box pattern

-Lase it

-Launch AGM missile at it/command fire

-Alert the team or its operator(by a chat message, sound alarm from the terminal, map marker..)

(Target list would allow you to add or remove specific vehicle models/unit types(such as "Engineer", "Hunter GMG") or categories(such as "Armored" , "Cars", "Submersible"))

-When low on fuel, autoland at designated airbase, and order the closest fuel truck to refuel it. and then, order the truck to stay near the runway for future refuels OR return to its previous position)

-When damage is high, autoland at designated airbase and order the closest repair truck/engineer to repair it.......

-When out of ammo, autoland at designated airbase and order the closest ammo truck to resupply it......

(Once the UAV has been refuelled/repaired/resupplied, it will return to its waypoint and continue with its mission)

For manual control, there should be "Manual flight control", "Manual optic/missile control" and "Manual total control", so that you can have a crew of 2 people controlling the UAV or just 1.

Manual optic/missile control will let you control the laser designator, use NVG/FLIR and launch missiles(either missiles mounted on your plane, or command fire to launch missiles from an external source)

Optic stabilization is a must, there should be a button to lock the camera on the ground or on a unit. (It's done in Mando missile nicely)

Manual flight control will let you fly the plane like any normal fixed wing plane, it will override previous movement waypoints. Once you leave manual flight control, it should automatically return to its previous waypoints or auto land or just be on standby and circle around the air.)

[progamer 14]

You forget that modern unmanned aircraft have to get the go ahead to actually "kill" a target. Meaning a message in chat or something could pop up like "Target is: Tank/car/infantry; esimated threat level to friendlies; Authorize kill? Y or N"

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

They should be able to lock onto a target/ acquire the target then request permission from a human to kill. But like real life unmanned aircraft they can be manually controlled from a ground based or aircraft based location.

---------- Post added at 19:00 ---------- Previous post was at 18:50 ----------

Doesn't the unarmed ground vehicle remind anyone of the MALP from stargate?

[nmdanny 22]

I think a nice way to control the quadrotor drone would be ordering it to track a specific unit(friendly or enemy) at an altitude that allows it to see as much of the battlefield as possible with the optimal thermal sensing quality.

Or it could try to maintain ~100m+- of distance from the assigned unit, in a specific direction(north/south/west/east), so that if the unit turns it wont have to go all the way back.

In addition to being able to use waypoints as in my post above.

A nice feature would be showing a red box on enemies that are being actively tracked by a quadrotor/UAV, to friendly units nearby who are wearing tactical shades, the protector helmet or any helmet with a HUD.

[progamer 14]

I think a nice way to control the quadrotor drone would be ordering it to track a specific unit(friendly or enemy) at an altitude that allows it to see as much of the battlefield as possible with the optimal thermal sensing quality.

Or it could try to maintain ~100m+- of distance from the assigned unit, in a specific direction(north/south/west/east), so that if the unit turns it wont have to go all the way back.

In addition to being able to use waypoints as in my post above.

A nice feature would be showing a red box on enemies that are being actively tracked by a quadrotor/UAV, to friendly units nearby who are wearing tactical shades, the protector helmet or any helmet with a HUD.

Yea, all Unammed vehicles could use integration with tactical shades. But with the quadrarotor, I would want distanced to be easily "programmed" in game because it could very easily give you away if it has pre-set distances.

---------- Post added at 19:19 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

Instead of having to sync UAV's to a terminal and to the people you want using them, I would prefer using a radio channel system were anyone can access a vehicle with knowledge of what channel it is on, so to could hijack an enemy UAV or UGV and drive around normally and then use it to strike when least expected. But a mission maker could prevent Hijacking and choose what players can use it if they want.

[nmdanny 22]

Yea, all Unammed vehicles could use integration with tactical shades. But with the quadrarotor, I would want distanced to be easily "programmed" in game because it could very easily give you away if it has pre-set distances.

---------- Post added at 19:19 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

Instead of having to sync UAV's to a terminal and to the people you want using them, I would prefer using a radio channel system were anyone can access a vehicle with knowledge of what channel it is on, so to could hijack an enemy UAV or UGV and drive around normally and then use it to strike when least expected. But a mission maker could prevent Hijacking and choose what players can use it if they want.

I think this kind of hijacking won't fit with ArmA 3, it could be easily abused by ghosting(going to one team to get the UAV frequency, then switching to the other team, hijacking the UAV and creating havoc.

A more balanced option would be the addition of electronic warfare pods to aircraft, which have a chance of hijacking an enemy UAV, at the cost of giving away their position. Once a drone is hijacked, it should emit a warning to its previous owners.

Quadrotors should also not be automatically detected at high altitudes, they should have some element of stealth.

[progamer 14]

I think this kind of hijacking won't fit with ArmA 3, it could be easily abused by ghosting(going to one team to get the UAV frequency, then switching to the other team, hijacking the UAV and creating havoc.

A more balanced option would be the addition of electronic warfare pods to aircraft, which have a chance of hijacking an enemy UAV, at the cost of giving away their position. Once a drone is hijacked, it should emit a warning to its previous owners.

Quadrotors should also not be automatically detected at high altitudes, they should have some element of stealth.

If we did have hijacking, we wouldn't have some unrealistic and acradish way of doing it.

[Victim9l3 11]

Only a few pages but a lot to read here. Do we know for sure how unmanned vehicles will be controlled? Giving them waypoints is absolute terrible. That's fine if they are automatic. I don't want to sit there with a video camera trying to make heads or tales of what i'm seeing while the vehicle moves constantly. I've seen some real life operators and it's not unlike flying an aircraft in arma. Why shouldn't Arma give you the video camera control and complete control of it's flight path. When I move joystick left, my aircraft should fly left. Exactly like putting a video camera on a remote controlled car. ESPECIALLY since we are 20 years into the future. Please no waypoints. Or at least optional.

[antoineflemming 14]

You forget that modern unmanned aircraft have to get the go ahead to actually "kill" a target. Meaning a message in chat or something could pop up like "Target is: Tank/car/infantry; esimated threat level to friendlies; Authorize kill? Y or N"

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

They should be able to lock onto a target/ acquire the target then request permission from a human to kill. But like real life unmanned aircraft they can be manually controlled from a ground based or aircraft based location.

---------- Post added at 19:00 ---------- Previous post was at 18:50 ----------

Doesn't the unarmed ground vehicle remind anyone of the MALP from stargate?

Well, kinda, but it's really the MULE from the cancelled Natick Soldier Center/US Army Future Combat Systems program. But, yeah, it's similar. Why? Because both look like bigger, armored versions of a lunar rover. Especially the MALP.