Recent Helo Changes: Unflyable

[StrongHarm 13]

oukej, I think that ticket sums it up nicely in relation to responsiveness. I would add that in lateral flight, lift is lost quickly and yaw and roll are too sluggish to maintain that aspect. It feels like the engine RPMs are at 70% and the rotor blades change AOA slowly. All of my tests were with the AH9 on a Warthog HOTAS and Saitek Pro Pedals on powered and conditioned USB.

I didn't want to come off as having picky complaints and demands.. but wanted to inform BIS of perceived disparities. Although you don't seem to have a very large pure aviation user base, I think a lot of us would lose interest in the product under the current flight model... and that would be a shame. It's a good product.

I do understand what you're trying to achieve in balancing 'reasonable realism' across all assets. I thought you had done a beautiful job with aerophysics before the last prod build. Although I could see compromises in realism, the aircraft performed nicely. I don't think dynamics such as autorotation and vortex ring are nearly as important as attitude reaction and performance.

If I had the opportunity to set the requirement for combat helos, I would contribute: "When engaged with the enemy, attack aircraft should be sufficiently agile and responsive that survivability is dependent on the skill of the pilot, not performance limitations of the airframe." A compromise to limit agility so non-flyers can land and maneuver more easily would be to add an "agility envelope". Something like: "where aircraft is below 50 knots/50ft/2-Gs agility and flight surface affect are 50%". Although unrealistic, it might provide balance.

Thanks for taking the time to engage the community oukej!

[EwokVillage 1]

On a lighter note, StrongHarm, do you play Wasteland?

If so, Id be happy for you to pilot us around from objective to objective. These other pilots are....well...bad.

Regards..

twitch.tv/odieman1231

[tuplas 10]

oukej, I think that ticket sums it up nicely in relation to responsiveness. I would add that in lateral flight, lift is lost quickly and yaw and roll are too sluggish to maintain that aspect. It feels like the engine RPMs are at 70% and the rotor blades change AOA slowly. All of my tests were with the AH9 on a Warthog HOTAS and Saitek Pro Pedals on powered and conditioned USB.

Roll is bugged with a joystick.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8002

[StrongHarm 13]

Roll is bugged with a joystick.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8002

I concur.. but I believe that's only part of the problem. Yaw and physical reaction to aspect change also seem to have issues.

[kylania 567]

I would not say the ergonomy suffered.

Previously to fly I'd have my ring finger on Q to raise power and middle finger on Z to lower it. My index finger would be available for X or C easily if I needed rudder, a natural extension of the finger to press R for flares (G now, which is uncomfortable but workable) and easy access to F for cycling weapons. No fingers were interfering with each other, all felt natural.

With the new scheme to maintain the same level of control I need to contort my fingers. How do you keep fingers on Z and X constantly while also retaining easy of us to press Q or E at any time? It's physically impossible. I suppose you could keep ring and middle on Z and X then contract your pinky for use with Q and contract your index finger for E if you need rudder but then over extend the index for use with F and G. Trying that is just super painful and uncomfortable.

Am I missing something here? I just can't see any way that QE/ZX is in any physical way preferable to QZ/XC. It might match the style of infantry controls, but lordy is it uncomfortable. It might match the functionality of pedals and a flightsim cockpit but not the layout of a keyboard.

[tremanarch 6]

this was another M+K casual is able to do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHwp_ZpZ4Fs&feature=youtube_gdata

maybe you can explain what was better / possible before?

btw. I like w+s for more / less engine power

and A+D for pedals

and the mouse controls the rotor.

thats a good method for me to fly.

[kylania 567]

btw. I like w+s for more / less engine power and A+D for pedals

Gonna try that, seems much more comfortable compared to fitting an arc over a square.

[oukej 2910]

(Please keep the discussion about changed controls presets out of this thread. Ideally in the development branch discussion. A little side note about that - consider utilizing thumb)

[profcupcake 11]

The remapping of the keys is ridiclous. Q/Z = up/down is ingrained by now. Same with X/C = rudder. Now it's Q/E = rudder and Z/X up/down?! What? How are you supposed to control that with your fingers? You went from having your fingers in a nice easy L shape where only one finger had to move to change rudder to having your fingers in a [7 shape where they all have to be in place or all have to be moving. So confusing, so against tradition and so unergonomic.

This is kind of the same as if you switched from WASD for infantry and instead used arrow keys as the default.

Wow, they did the same for ground vehicles too. Shift-W instead of Q/W/E. C'mon, make the CoDBLOpers learn the keys instead of going against a decade and more of key bindings to make things easier for the new kids.

You're a braver man than I, to be flying with those god-awful default controls.

Mouse = pitch & roll, WASD = collective/thrust & rudder/anti-torque

It is beyond me how anyone can do it any other way.

Also, the Q/W/E still works. It's just that SHIFT+W also works.

Being fair, it's pretty pointless complaining about something which can be changed and customised so easily.

Edited July 24, 2013 by ProfCupcake

[StrongHarm 13]

Were you testing your theory that the fall of western civilization is rooted in the selective attention span of the average end user? Don't worry.. this isn't the end.. they're just rude...

(Please keep the discussion about changed controls presets out of this thread. Ideally in the development branch discussion. A little side note about that - consider utilizing thumb)

[StrongHarm 13]

tremanarch: what you're doing in the video isn't a funnel maneuver. A funnel maneuver is when the helo flies in a circular pattern and remains in a sustained extreme negative pitch (pointing at the ground from a higher altitude) aided by the opposition of inertia to rotor lift. It's called a funnel maneuver because the helo tends to lose altitude slowly causing it to look like something flushing down a toilet.. but they obviously couldn't call it the turd maneuver :) .

[gatordev 215]

gatordev.. I'm not a pilot by trade, I work for a mil tech lab. I've been a SME for the DOD and for market sims and earlier I was an aviation engineer in the military. I have had the opportunity to fly many military and civilian aircraft (but not as an occupation). The earliest sims I worked with were military ball sims for the F18 and F14 in the early 90s. I've always been an enthusiast. I wasn't insinuating (or barking heheh) that Arma3 has a realistic flight model. I was trying to convey that the latest changes made flight much 'less' realistic... like something you'd expect from BF3 instead of Arma3... and for my taste that is unplayable. For a more realistic pc helo sim I like DCS KA50, but I do enjoy flying while there are people actually involved in ground ops within Arma3.. it really adds to the immersion. I'm a disabled vet so if I'm not at work I'm flying my PC.. so I use a lot of different software.

I've got one or two hours in both sims and the real thing, as well. I have no idea what a "SME for the DOD" is. I know what the letters stand for, but it's not like it's a singular position that determines how all sims should behave. I say that as someone who has to constantly deal with simulators (and the real thing) in my day job, one of which was built by a buddy of mine's company, and he's tested it a lot. Even he'll agree it's not accurate compared the real thing. My point was that having opinions on A3 can be valuable, but comparing it to what a multi-million dollar military sim isn't the best idea...and in a lot of ways, A3 is better (at times) because of its relative simplicity.

As I mentioned before, though, it looks like the flight model has "reverted" a bit back to A2. Helos go much slower than they should, they accelerate in turns faster than they do straight and level, and I agree, the pitch response isn't right when in a dive. All of these things were present in A2. The pitch response was corrected greatly in A2 to it's current form, but if you get going over ~120 knots, it can be hard to pull out of a dive, which is definitely not realistic or fun to play.

A3 initially didn't have these issues, but now they're back. I thought A3 Alpha was a nice bridge between the lesser flight model of A2 and the more advanced model of TKOH. Hopefully we can get back to that point.

[KingScuba 1]

The remapping of the keys is ridiclous. Q/Z = up/down is ingrained by now. Same with X/C = rudder. Now it's Q/E = rudder and Z/X up/down?! What? How are you supposed to control that with your fingers? You went from having your fingers in a nice easy L shape where only one finger had to move to change rudder to having your fingers in a [7 shape where they all have to be in place or all have to be moving. So confusing, so against tradition and so unergonomic.

This is kind of the same as if you switched from WASD for infantry and instead used arrow keys as the default.

Wow, they did the same for ground vehicles too. Shift-W instead of Q/W/E. C'mon, make the CoDBLOpers learn the keys instead of going against a decade and more of key bindings to make things easier for the new kids.

I wasn't aware that going into your OPTIONS and changing some key configs under AIRCRAFT and VEHICLE was so impossible in the latest game.... a shame.

As to being back on topic, BIS has promised us a more TOH FM implementation. There will be easier and harder modes for players depending on their desired simulation (Such as auto trim, auto starts, ETC). I really hope if they bring their throttle system over, that they make easier levels of flying not allow people to over torque the engines ~~" (Not sure how to say this one.. if you put in too much throttle, your torque gauge goes red, and the engine gets fked in the arse)

[StrongHarm 13]

gatordev.. I thought you were asking if I was a pilot and I was making polite conversation.. thanks for your comments.

[Rolling 1]

The remapping of the keys is ridiclous. Q/Z = up/down is ingrained by now. Same with X/C = rudder. Now it's Q/E = rudder and Z/X up/down?! What? How are you supposed to control that with your fingers? You went from having your fingers in a nice easy L shape where only one finger had to move to change rudder to having your fingers in a [7 shape where they all have to be in place or all have to be moving. So confusing, so against tradition and so unergonomic.

This is kind of the same as if you switched from WASD for infantry and instead used arrow keys as the default.

Wow, they did the same for ground vehicles too. Shift-W instead of Q/W/E. C'mon, make the CoDBLOpers learn the keys instead of going against a decade and more of key bindings to make things easier for the new kids.

You do know that it's perfectly possible to remap every key, right?

On topic, I really like the new flight model, maneuvering seems to be easier to do, but also easier to completely screw up.

[StrongHarm 13]

Issue resolved with today's patch! The helo is even more responsive than before! Had a lot of fun.. thanks BIS!

[oukej 2910]

I'm glad to hear that. Now I see where the whole misunderstanding appeared. I have already been living with that fix in mind, because we tweaked it some time ago. I did not realize it made it into the Default build only yesterday :D

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

As mentioned in my first post, was fixed here - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9786#c41394

Yes, the fix appeared only one day after the first Beta patch for Default Branch. 12th July :D

So all the time I was scared, that actually these changes we introduced were those you felt wrong about. Big relief.

[StrongHarm 13]

I should have specified I was on the prod build. Thanks for being connected to the community. This is a great product and growing better by the build.

[oukej 2910]

Thank you. The community and your feedback is something what makes the game possible and allows us to achieve things that wouldn't be otherwise possible in such a relatively small dev. team.

If you don't mind, I'll suggest closing it here.

Moar feedback is always welcome ;) So please, let me know what you think. Posting some links you might be interested in:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147740-Helicopter-physics-impressions-simplified

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9786

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11613

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=1970

[HKFlash 9]

oukej,

Excellent job on the flight models. What a pleasure it is to fly the PO-03 Orca now! No longer does it feel like a jet!

[StrongHarm 13]

Agreed, the new model's level of decrease in realism isn't a hindrance, it actually seems to be an asset to a skilled pilot. I'm now revising my SP CAS mission to include all helos and the new JTAC soldier.. it will be sweet!

[oukej 2910]

I'm glad you like it and hope it is not only "relative like" compared to the previous state ;)

oukej,

Excellent job on the flight models. What a pleasure it is to fly the PO-03 Orca now! No longer does it feel like a jet!

Thanks, but all the kudos should go to Dr.Hladik for he is the actual person responsible for the tweaks and changes in the engine and Pettka , who took care of the individual helicopter characteristics in configs. (A little gift from Pettka now lurks in the Dev. build on Steam - heli. speeds increased to match the real life values more closely; )

[makc 10]

im so excited for the TOH fm!

[Smurf 12]

TOH FM won't make it.

[BigBoss 10]

Nice job on the choppers guys, keep up the good work!