AI Discussion (dev branch)

[ice_age0815 37]

TBH I've noticed since the new stable patch that I'm getting mercilessly slaughtered. I too also use the RHS mod and Leights OPFOR. I also use bCombat. Prior to the update, everything was quite enjoyable, but after the update--for whatever reason--the opfor are like doped up hulks with ak's. Getting hit from nowhere a mile away from some ak wielding maggot. Not sure what is going on, personally.

yes it is bad cant wait to get it fixed its driving me nuts bcombat never used it normaly i use vcom ai so it cuts down on downloading addons

[KeyCat 131]

OK I don't want to sound like an **s but this thread is only for stock dev build. Try again without any mods and see if it's the same, if it isn't then the correct way is to report it to the modmaker, not here.

/KC

[Bouben 3]

TBH I've noticed since the new stable patch that I'm getting mercilessly slaughtered. I too also use the RHS mod and Leights OPFOR. I also use bCombat. Prior to the update, everything was quite enjoyable, but after the update--for whatever reason--the opfor are like doped up hulks with ak's. Getting hit from nowhere a mile away from some ak wielding maggot. Not sure what is going on, personally.

Everything vanilla related (fixing bugs, tweaking and balancing the game) needs to be based on vanilla observations. Don't report stuff happening with mods active.

[Wolfenswan 1]

Everything vanilla related (fixing bugs, tweaking and balancing the game) needs to be based on vanilla observations. Don't report stuff happening with mods active.

Seconded.

The new update changed the danger.fsm, which is why, for example, ASR_AI3 currently does not work. I'd not be surprised if it also has weird effects in conjunction with other AI mods.

[ice_age0815 37]

so i think i got it to work the mission i am playing uses eos and AI skill i set to this looks like it is working

mod used RHS CBA TFR a arma 3 1.4

// INFANTRY SKILL

_InfskillSet = [

0.2, // aimingAccuracy

0.80, // aimingShake

0.3, // aimingSpeed

0.4, // spotDistance

0.4, // spotTime

1, // courage

1, // reloadSpeed

1, // commanding

1 // general

[-Coulum- 35]

Actually it can alert units even farther away. What distance you think would be reasonable? (the units around are only alerted, don't receive any details about the threat)

Its not so much a question of distance but rather of time and los. If the group can see the hit, and is within 40m or so it should be instant as it is. If they can't see the guy get hit however than it should take time before they become alerted, even at 40m. You know to represent info travelling up the chain of command. The way info is passed around so instantly within and I guess sometimes between groups gives that "hive mind" feel to the ai.

TBH I've noticed since the new stable patch that I'm getting mercilessly slaughtered. I too also use the RHS mod and Leights OPFOR. I also use bCombat. Prior to the update, everything was quite enjoyable, but after the update--for whatever reason--the opfor are like doped up hulks with ak's. Getting hit from nowhere a mile away from some ak wielding maggot. Not sure what is going on, personally.

Assuming you are exaggerating about the "hit from a mile away by an ak", I experienced similar difficulty increase in devbranch when this change was introduced:

• Fixed: AI reaction to danger should be faster
  

Quite descriptive. The last one being a fix of a bug when the AI wouldn't acquire the target correctly even though it already had enough info about it. (E.g. units under fire looking somewhere else and not turning to the source of the fire)

I am pretty sure the ai accuracy itself was never changed. Rather the ai is now much more able to acquire targets (especially based off sound). Basically, before, the ai was deaf. If you fired a shot and were not in their los they wouldn't attempt to turn in your direction. Now they do. So when you open up on a squad you'll have a whole lot more lead coming your way.

An easy example comparison of before and after:

• Before: Ai is around the corner. You run up to it. Ai doesn't react to hearing your footsteps and is oblivious. You round it. He sees you and tries to engage, but since he is not ready he is initially inaccurate. You kill him before he can get accurate shots off.
  
• Now: Ai is around the corner. You run up to it . Ai hears footsteps around the corner. He raises his weapon and aims it at the corner, incase it is an enemy. You round it and he blows you away because he was expecting you and already has his weapon lined up.
  
• 
  

The accuracy is not any different than before. Its just the ai are more aware of sound (and not at all in an unfair way).

They aren't any more terminator than before. Just not quite so braindead. That is a good thing.

Edited March 5, 2015 by -Coulum-

[ice_age0815 37]

there keeped one shooting me 300 to 500 meter away one shoot kills

[PTV-Jobo 820]

--snip--

Nevermind, going to dick around a few more things and post back anymore observations.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Yokhanan

[bonham 10]

Why can the AI fire artillery shells 2 seconds quicker (6 secs) than the player can (8 secs)? Scorcher and Sochor are affected. For balancing reasons?

[Guest]

Not the first time I hear such report. But I wasn't able to reproduce the issue. Do you happen to have a mission or do you know about a place & conditions where this happens somewhat regularly? Could you please also try it with the new update if it's still behaving the same?

I actually do not play the Development version of the game, I just wanted to post this in regards to the topic. I place 3 units that are lone separate groups next to the corner of a building, stance set to middle, combat mode set, then as player I step out from the other end of the building in view of them quickly, and then just stand there for a bit. Sometimes they will all fire, sometimes only a few will fire, sometimes none - and if I stand there for a short while, some of them might stop firing or even go into a single shot mode. Of course I have AllowDamage False on the player. The mission itself is just a clean slate on Utes (from the conversion map pack). My average Fps is 50 to 60.

Actually it can alert units even farther away. What distance you think would be reasonable? (the units around are only alerted, don't receive any details about the threat)

I appreciate the reply there. I personally would not suggest increasing the distance, and rather than decreasing it, why not just provide a control option for it. Control options that come to mind could be :

A potentially easy method: Provide a method to be able to disable or enable the entire Ai detection of separate group units hit (like a global variable). An option to this could be to rather provide the ability to set the alert range globally.

A potentially easy method: If the hit unit has a radio on them, then other units nearby with radios can be alerted. (Although in all truth this has little to do with radios, nonetheless, it would be a method of control).

Create an object variable that would turn on or off the alert ability for each unit that could be set by mission makers per unit. I don't know how the alert function is setup in the game, so it would either be disabling/enabling a units ability to alert others, or disabling/enabling units from being alerted, whichever is applicable according to how the current function is setup.

Same as above, except provide distance option in the object variable. This is really not necessary, just an option if it was no big deal to toss in.

That's about it.

Really, without Line Of Sight, there is no way to know if the alerted unit is actually in view of the hit unit, so that changing the distance is not so much the issue. If a control option was there, it would help a lot, and still provide the function as it is, so that in wide open combat scenarios, groups will be more reactive, while in towns and bases, mission makers can disable the function, and even control the Ai's detection of units hit by script methods using LineIntersects (and similar script commands).

Edited March 6, 2015 by Guest

[ice_age0815 37]

But it has a god thing to ai is not so dump any more

[Bouben 3]

I actually do not play the Development version of the game, I just wanted to post this in regards to the topic. I place 3 units that are lone separate groups next to the corner of a building, stance set to middle, combat mode set, then as player I step out from the other end of the building in view of them quickly, and then just stand there for a bit. Sometimes they will all fire, sometimes only a few will fire, sometimes none - and if I stand there for a short while, some of them might stop firing or even go into a single shot mode. Of course I have AllowDamage False on the player. The mission itself is just a clean slate on Utes (from the conversion map pack). My average Fps is 50 to 60.

I appreciate the reply there. I personally would not suggest increasing the distance, and rather than decreasing it, why not just provide a control option for it. Control options that come to mind could be :

A potentially easy method: Provide a method to be able to disable or enable the entire Ai detection of separate group units hit (like a global variable). An option to this could be to rather provide the ability to set the alert range globally.

A potentially easy method: If the hit unit has a radio on them, then other units nearby with radios can be alerted. (Although in all truth this has little to do with radios, nonetheless, it would be a method of control).

Create an object variable that would turn on or off the alert ability for each unit that could be set by mission makers per unit. I don't know how the alert function is setup in the game, so it would either be disabling/enabling a units ability to alert others, or disabling/enabling units from being alerted, whichever is applicable according to how the current function is setup.

Same as above, except provide distance option in the object variable. This is really not necessary, just an option if it was no big deal to toss in.

That's about it.

Really, without Line Of Sight, there is no way to know if the alerted unit is actually in view of the hit unit, so that changing the distance is not so much the issue. If a control option was there, it would help a lot, and still provide the function as it is, so that in wide open combat scenarios, groups will be more reactive, while in towns and bases, mission makers can disable the function, and even control the Ai's detection of units hit by script methods using LineIntersects (and similar script commands).

It would be sufficient to introduce some delay in AI reporting. That way you could kill enemy AI with a burst and it would be unable to report you in time. It could be also simulated so that the AI under heavy fire is unable to send messages over their radios for some time. It could be tied (or similar) to suppressive fire detections.

[oukej 2911]

Note the difference between a report (which happens within the group of the victim and allows for sharing of info about the threat) and a simple shout when an unit is hit (which doesn't do anything else than alert the AI units in a given range; without any info about the threat).

[Bouben 3]

Note the difference between a report (which happens within the group of the victim and allows for sharing of info about the threat) and a simple shout when an unit is hit (which doesn't do anything else than alert the AI units in a given range; without any info about the threat).

That is cool, but in real life even the shout would be a problem when you get a lot of bullets in your body and you are disoriented and panicking. There should be a slight delay that would simulate "realizing what the hell is going on". This delay could be based on the skill of a unit.

EDIT: I am talking about delays in few seconds. Not longer. Few seconds that would completely change the way the stealth kills are now. Currently, missing an enemy's head means everybody alerted even if he's 40 meters away. With few seconds delay, nobody would be alerted because the successive shots would kill the AI. And 40 meters, in some types of environments, can be a very big distance to be heard.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Bouben

[oldy41 61]

And now to something completely different:

After a long time I just retested a mission, which included fighting against AI MRAPs with the player in the role of AT infantry. This is still a very frustrating experience due to the extremely sharp AI spotting and its quick reaction.

Even when playing in areas, which provide lots of cover and concealment, infantry is spotted and taken down by AI vehicle gunners in no time. The clumsy movement when the launcher is selected, which makes you feel like wading through a pool filled with honey, makes this even more difficult, but also more frustrating.

Imho, attacking armed vehicles with infantry should definitely be challenging, but the current AI behaviour is immersion breaking.

[dr. hladik 231]

There was something in the changelog regarding zeroing

Is this whats causing the increased accuracy from AI? I'm going to re-adjust down for now as it's changed pretty aggressively.

No, it is just for player.

[Guest]

It would be sufficient to introduce some delay in AI reporting. That way you could kill enemy AI with a burst and it would be unable to report you in time. It could be also simulated so that the AI under heavy fire is unable to send messages over their radios for some time. It could be tied (or similar) to suppressive fire detections.

There are certainly many ways to make the Ai more responsive to various combat situations. I just posted a solution similar to what a few others did as a simple solution without development time being spent fiddling with coding when they might be wanting to focus more on other things.

I have to admit I have some concerns towards some of the stuff I've heard about the Ai's response now to enemy units fired in the area. I hope at least that if the Ai are more responsive to this, that suppressed weapons are taken into consideration for hearing range, or else it could be another thing that could make special forces stealth style missions difficult to pull off.

Right now, I personally have been able to use the Group swap method to be able to stop the Ai from responding to nearby friendly hits, and then code my own response due to line of sight, unit angle, and distance. But things have been on thin Ice as it has been and it wouldn't be out the realm of possibility for the Ai to be hardcoded enough to where nothing could override various new settings and features.

I found that setting a group to EnableAttack False is enough to stop units that discover a dead body from going after the players current position - I tested this one out pretty well, the Ai units goto the players position regardless of LOS, I actually ran out about 50 meters out of sight and let the Ai group find the dead body from my kill, the leader sent the units right after, with no prior knowledge of my location or even my existence. After being able to stop the groups rom doing this, one can then code a more desirable response for situations where clairvoyant ai is very undesirable (like bases and towns).

Even the Ai detection of very close enemy units sound of footsteps sounds cool, but I hope it is kept to a very small area, and prefferrably kept to if the units are running, not just walking/sneaking.

Improved Ai detection is great, but I just hope it's kept between the lines, so that the already somewhat clairvoyant Ai does not become more so, to the degree of not being able to override it any more.

/Edit

I needed to re-test all of this, because I knew that I was forgetting some things that happen when a group unit reacts to a separate group unit being hit, so I made a test mission, and came up with the following:

Tested on Version 1.40

Guy1 = Ofpor Unit; One man Group: Positioned unit 150 Meters away from player, facing away from Player.

Guy2 = Opfor Unit; One man Group: Positioned unit 50 meters away from Guy1, placed between two close small buildings with view completely blocked of Guy1 and of player.

Both units set to Safe mode, and SetUnitPos "UP". Both set to AllowFleeing 0; Skill settings: Moderate.

Player unit at 150 Meters away from Guy1, Using a Suppressed weapon where the firing sound do not alert either unit -

Hit Guy1 in the leg. Guy1 goes into combat mode.

Guy2 Goes into combat mode, Guy2 KnowsAbout Player 0

Roughly 2 seconds later, Guy2 KnowsAbout Player 0.1

Roughly 3 seconds later, Guy2 KnowsAbout Player 1.5

A few seconds later Guy2 goes into Aware mode, and continues to have a KnowsAbout Player value of 1.5

Guy1 starts turning towards the player roughly 2 seconds after the initial hit.

Attempted to manually reset Guy2 back to Safe mode multiple times at various points while he was in Combat and Aware mode, the unit does not respond to the command (even when his knowsAbout value of the player is 0).

Tested this about 10 times, same general results, with little random differences in the timing of things happening.

I have no AI modification mods running.

The test mission is on Stratis, the name is :TempUnitDetectUnitHit.Stratis

Here is the mission.sqm code in the Spoiler Tab:

version=12;

class Mission

{

addOns[]=

{

"A3_Characters_F_OPFOR",

"a3_characters_f",

"A3_Characters_F_BLUFOR",

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"A3_Characters_F_OPFOR",

"a3_characters_f",

"A3_Characters_F_BLUFOR",

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=1979511;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

class Groups

{

items=3;

class Item0

{

side="EAST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1759.8857,5.5,5260.9731};

azimut=537.48218;

id=0;

side="EAST";

vehicle="O_Soldier_F";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

text="Guy1";

init="this SetUnitPos ""UP"";this SetBehaviour ""SAFE"";This allowFleeing 0;";

};

};

};

class Item1

{

side="EAST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1737.0951,5.5,5213.6792};

azimut=206.76782;

id=1;

side="EAST";

vehicle="O_Soldier_F";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

text="Guy2";

init="this SetUnitPos ""UP"";this SetBehaviour ""SAFE"";This AllowFleeing 0;";

};

};

};

class Item2

{

side="WEST";

class Vehicles

{

items=1;

class Item0

{

position[]={1675.6151,5.5,5315.8618};

azimut=136.32401;

id=2;

side="WEST";

vehicle="B_recon_M_F";

player="PLAYER COMMANDER";

leader=1;

skill=0.60000002;

init="this allowdamage false; This SetCaptive false;";

};

};

};

};

class Sensors

{

items=3;

class Item0

{

position[]={1787.6281,5.5,5275.4561};

a=0;

b=0;

angle=133.04657;

activationBy="ALPHA";

repeating=1;

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

text="knows about";

expActiv="player sidechat format [""Guy2 knows about player %1"", (Guy2 KnowsAbout Player)];player sidechat format [""Guy2 Behaviour is %1"", (Behaviour Guy2)];";

class Effects

{

};

};

class Item1

{

position[]={1756.2753,5.5,5260.3657};

a=70;

b=70;

angle=133.04657;

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

class Effects

{

};

};

class Item2

{

position[]={1776.0566,5.5,5284.5444};

a=0;

b=0;

angle=133.04657;

activationBy="BRAVO";

repeating=1;

interruptable=1;

age="UNKNOWN";

text="set to safe";

expActiv="Guy2 SetBehaviour ""SAFE"";";

class Effects

{

};

};

};

};

class Intro

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=14998652;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

class OutroWin

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=8356023;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

class OutroLoose

{

addOns[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

addOnsAuto[]=

{

"a3_map_stratis"

};

randomSeed=15327673;

class Intel

{

timeOfChanges=1800.0002;

startWeather=0.30000001;

startWind=0.1;

startWaves=0.1;

forecastWeather=0.30000001;

forecastWind=0.1;

forecastWaves=0.1;

forecastLightnings=0.1;

year=2035;

month=7;

day=6;

hour=12;

minute=0;

startFogDecay=0.013;

forecastFogDecay=0.013;

};

};

Might need to try a few times in order to hit Guy1 in the leg without killing him, then radio Alpha repeatedly to see the knowsAbout values and Behavior changes of Guy2, whom is completely out of view. Also note that I am basing the results off of the first shot hitting Guy1 in the leg, so if I miss, and he responds to the near hit, I do not try to hit him again, but I re-load the test (although a few tests have revealed generally the same results after hitting Guy1 after a miss that caused him to go into combat mode).

I also just saw for the first time Guy2 stay at KnowsAbout value 0, so by chance it might take a few tests to get the normal results. I re-tested as soon as I saw that, and things went as normal again, with Guy2 gaining a 1.5 knowsAbout value of the player after a few seconds.

On the separate issue I mentioned earlier of the random chance of Ai units not firing on enemy units, I am not able to re-produce the issue now, it may be possible that the recent patch has fixed it?

Edited March 7, 2015 by Guest

[Bouben 3]

And now to something completely different:

After a long time I just retested a mission, which included fighting against AI MRAPs with the player in the role of AT infantry. This is still a very frustrating experience due to the extremely sharp AI spotting and its quick reaction.

Even when playing in areas, which provide lots of cover and concealment, infantry is spotted and taken down by AI vehicle gunners in no time. The clumsy movement when the launcher is selected, which makes you feel like wading through a pool filled with honey, makes this even more difficult, but also more frustrating.

Imho, attacking armed vehicles with infantry should definitely be challenging, but the current AI behaviour is immersion breaking.

Check this ticket I have created some time ago: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=22531

[Variable 322]

BIS. do you have more plans regarding AI suppression, or is it going to stay like it is now, i.e switch to danger mode only? Can we expect things like precision and skill reduction, forced movement into cover and forced stance change?

[CaptainObvious 95]

BIS. do you have more plans regarding AI suppression, or is it going to stay like it is now, i.e switch to danger mode only? Can we expect things like precision and skill reduction, forced movement into cover and forced stance change?

It was stated in one of the recent SITREPs that AI accuracy will be affected by suppression soonâ„¢.

[Wolfenswan 1]

I just noticed that setSkill (array) changes all other skills as well (in 1.40 stable). Pretty serious bug for those adjusting AI skill values by script. Can someone in DEV test if the issue still persists?

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=22973

It would also explain why some people are experiencing laser AI while others are not: If you are using a setSkill script, which keeps aiming/precision at a low level but a later set value at a high one, the difference will obv. be much more noticeable. While if you use the editor-set skill, there won't be any difference.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Wolfenswan

[cyruz 103]

Wolf check out this from last night's testing. http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=22970

[Wolfenswan 1]

Saw it and commented as possibly related. Unless you have used setSkill array I think it's a different issue though, only related in the sense that it's prob. caused by/a bug in the new skill propagation method.

This is a nice one-two punch though:

1. Groups using setSkill Array to tweak AI skills will most likely have too-high aiming values in many missions.

2. Lowering precisionAI on the server to counteract the issue won't have any results, lowering skillAI will make the AI very sluggish.

A+++ bug :D

Edit: Seems like your bug is slightly different to what you reported. Check my second comment on the ticket. It also means the one-two punch does not apply.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Wolfenswan

[oldy41 61]

Check this ticket I have created some time ago: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=22531

Upvoted. That is what I was complainting about regarding AI gunners.

Definitely needs a bit more attention/votes.

[Bouben 3]

Upvoted. That is what I was complainting about regarding AI gunners.

Definitely needs a bit more attention/votes.

You can put it in your signature to make it more widespread.