AI Discussion (dev branch)

[five_seven5-7 56]

In the V-44 X Armed AI dont use flares, also no beep sound.

 

At night in a combat it was awkward, CSAT AA men units didnt use the rockets neither the marids opened fire and three V-44 also didnt do anything only flyby. This in a airport landing zone. The only shots were against parachutes pilots.

[oukej 2910]

The RWR for V-44 has not been configured yet. Also confirming that AI haven't been using correct weapons against this VTOL.

[ImperialAlex 72]

Tweaked: The AI visibility at night was optimized

☞ AI almost everything else feedback topic☜ ;)

There have been some rather big changes to AI detection ranges and in general the detection should now more accurately reflect the audible and visual state (in harmony with vis. update).

To give some more details and quick examples (approx. distances, Regular diff., 0.6 skilled AI, flat surface without clutter)

• Previously, in full moon night the AI was able to spot a running target at 25m and track it up to 350m. Now the AI is able to spot such target at 40m but it won't be able to track it further than roughly 80m.
• With a flashlight the AI was sometimes able to spot a running target at more than 100m. Now the flashlight won't help the AI detect targets beyond 30-40m. That is still better than - without FL or NVG - a pitch black night where the AI almost exclusively relies on its hearing. Of course, when you decide to wander under the lights of streetlamps .... better shoot the bulbs  ;) And don't even think about switchin on your own torch.
• Previously the AI would almost always detect you if you got closer than 20m. Now you will be able to get more personal. But keep in mind that Arma is still not a super-stealthy come-tap-on-my-shoulder game. Our AI don't like hugging and shaking hands, they keep their comfy zone. Should you decide to poke the AI with your muzzle they will get angry at you. Even in the darkest night.
• AI is always happy to use optics to spot scared players better. From now on the darker it gets the less useful are the optics to the AI. When you can't see your own toes seeing them 10x magnified doesn't help, right?  ;)
• Previously there was a little difference between how far the AI spotted static and a walking target. At the same time there was much more noticeable gap between running and sprinting. From player's perspective - of what is easier to notice - it's more of a static vs. moving target dilemna. Next time you try to ambush the AI, plan your movement carefully and freeze when in the enemy's LOS. It may save your life. (In numbers the detection is approx. 100m for crouched static target vs. 240m for walking, 340m running, 360m sprinting, target)
• And also the gap between AI spotting you and recognizing you as an enemy has been increased. You'll be able to notice this mainly when facing AI that is already in combat mode and is actively looking for enemies. Focusing its sight in narrow angle and using optics. Such AI will be able to spot you - if you get into its focus area - much further away than AI that has its weapon lowered. But it will only be able to recognize you once you get a bit closer. (If you get spotted by an unaware AI patrol you are usually close enough for them to recognize you by focusing)
• :ph34r:

WOW! Thanks for both the changes and the really detailed documentation! It's nice to see some numbers here rather than having to guess! Really looking forward to this update hitting main branch.

[oukej 2910]

If you really want we can give you even more numbers - it would be good for feedback, testing, for your mods and missions ... on the other hand wouldn't too much info spoil some fun when playing against the AI? ;)
 

[jone_kone 158]

If you really want we can give you even more numbers - it would be good for feedback, testing, for your mods and missions ... on the other hand wouldn't too much info spoil some fun when playing against the AI? ;)

 

 

I think mission makers would love all the details they can get. If you want the mission to be balanced and events to occur when they should, you usually have to do a lot of trial/error -testing and then guesstimate what parameters the AI is using. With the data at hand, it would easier to setup the initial scenario and the iterate faster to a final solution.

 

BTW. ...any chance getting Tank gunners scanning last see direction of the enemy atleast for a short while after contact, and the driver to rotate the body of the tank in that direction to get full benefit of the front armour? ... and a Zeus function for suppress. :D

[Sniperwolf572 758]

If you really want we can give you even more numbers - it would be good for feedback, testing, for your mods and missions ... on the other hand wouldn't too much info spoil some fun when playing against the AI? ;)

 

 

What would be really awesome is some kind of AI diagnostics switch with diag_enable as a part of the diagnostics executable.  :wub:

Surely you guys aren't tweaking the AI blindfolded and I think it would help if we could actually tell what is going on so we can provide more accurate feedback, instead of assuming and relaying gut info which usually leads to all kinds of AI urban myths.

[ImperialAlex 72]

If you really want we can give you even more numbers - it would be good for feedback, testing, for your mods and missions ... on the other hand wouldn't too much info spoil some fun when playing against the AI? ;)

I'd love to see even more numbers. I don't think spoiling is too much of an issue, after all the people that read this thread are a tiny minority and we're already testing and 'reverse-guessgeneering' a lot of AI-related things so if knowing more about AI made our game less fun we probably wouldn't be doing that ;)

[inlesco 233]

What would be really awesome is some kind of AI diagnostics switch with diag_enable as a part of the diagnostics executable.  :wub:

Surely you guys aren't tweaking the AI blindfolded and I think it would help if we could actually tell what is going on so we can provide more accurate feedback, instead of assuming and relaying gut info which usually leads to all kinds of AI urban myths.

Seriously, this man speaks the truth. For those who want all numbers they could get, you guys could implement a debug_AI .exe for a focus on AI diagnostics, testing & constructive feedback with data logs.

 

I fully support this idea Sw572 has expressed!

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

Oukej, thanks so much for continuing to improve the enemy AI. The patch notes look amazing!

[haleks 8204]

This might be the best place to talk about that...
 

Any chances to see the tactical ping being put to good use in SP?
It could be a very convenient way to order the AI to watch a location for a minute or two - it would be so usefull & intuitive. <3

Yes that would be a great idea. For suppress and watch direction

This is a 10/10 idea

Allow to grab the world position of the tactical ping and use for AI positional suppression

"ok mens, fire at the dot"

*hope*

[chrys 20]

AI walking seems to be broken. They are running now instead.

[haleks 8204]

It's known, will be fixed soon.

[froggyluv 2130]

If you really want we can give you even more numbers - it would be good for feedback, testing, for your mods and missions ... on the other hand wouldn't too much info spoil some fun when playing against the AI? ;)

 

 

 Heh not really. Been living in the world of AI subSkill testing literally for the past year -I have 8000 hours on Steam and probably 300 of that is just playing -so I know jaded. Anyways one  day break and then I can jump back into playing no problem with no immersion magic destroyed. Selective memory is a blessing and if the AI play better. the Fourth Wall is reinstated no problem.

[Gwynbleidd 28]

This might be the best place to talk about that...

 

*hope*

This would be great (AI watching in the direction of your ping). Suppression should really get it's own keybind, like in C2 mod: http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r594/Mad_Cheese/C2BucketSupress_zps64izcssl.jpg  (I don't want the AI to start suppressing when I'm pinging human players)

While you're holding the suppress keybind, you can move that icon around, when you let go, you give the order to the AI to suppress that area.

Best way this would work (IMO of course):

If you press the suppress keybind without selecting any AI, the whole team would start suppressing. If you select couple of the AI and press suppress, only selected AI suppress. This way it would really speed up the process, and when you run into the enemies in thick jungle, you could have your entire team open up with all they've got with the push of the button, instead of selecting the team, pushing buttons and going through the menus.

[metalcraze 290]

Tanoa moved the detail level ahead but AI is still stuck in the past. It's incapable of getting to half areas in WW2 fort and totally incapable of getting up or down from the multitude of mountains. It's as if any non-terrain objects placed less than 4m apart send AI into panic since it either gets stuck on the nearest rock or makes circles around the same spot for all eternity

 

Clearly the navmesh or whatever it's using is not precise enough.

[oukej 2910]

Not fully autonomous AI behavior on some places has been an accepted trade-off. It allowed our environ. artist to create some more interesting locations. There's an obvious benefit for PvP scenarios. But PvE is not out of game if carefully designed or curated.

[cosmic10r 2320]

This would be great (AI watching in the direction of your ping). Suppression should really get it's own keybind, like in C2 mod: http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r594/Mad_Cheese/C2BucketSupress_zps64izcssl.jpg  (I don't want the AI to start suppressing when I'm pinging human players)

While you're holding the suppress keybind, you can move that icon around, when you let go, you give the order to the AI to suppress that area.

Best way this would work (IMO of course):

If you press the suppress keybind without selecting any AI, the whole team would start suppressing. If you select couple of the AI and press suppress, only selected AI suppress. This way it would really speed up the process, and when you run into the enemies in thick jungle, you could have your entire team open up with all they've got with the push of the button, instead of selecting the team, pushing buttons and going through the menus.

Samo had this 2 years ago and I agree... when you need the command you don't want to be navigating menus.

We also had a suppression length command and you are able to select specific units to suppress or teams.

Tbh I'm glad BI is getting this in game as it is a needed function for commanding ai squads and was a pain to script...

[froggyluv 2130]

Not fully autonomous AI behavior on some places has been an accepted trade-off. It allowed our environ. artist to create some more interesting locations. There's an obvious benefit for PvP scenarios. But PvE is not out of game if carefully designed or curated.

 

 Understand the trade-off but does that mean that we've seen the limit to nav-mesh design and it will never advance? Thought I saw a write up on DayZ in which there was going to be a whole new approach in which Ai could go anywhere? In shorty-do we have a future here?

 

 Also, there  still  seemed to be quite a few large facilities with stair accessible rooftops but no nodes to assign.

 

 P.S: Thanks for the AI vision work -looks promising

[Alwarren 2765]

Not fully autonomous AI behavior on some places has been an accepted trade-off. It allowed our environ. artist to create some more interesting locations. There's an obvious benefit for PvP scenarios. But PvE is not out of game if carefully designed or curated.

Getting the AI to do want you want is already quite a challenge. Did this mean it's just got worse?

This is also not so much about benefit but more about disadvantage for Coop and single player. Do you really want to alienate those groups?

I'm getting bad bad vibes here.

[smashballs 25]

The AI has a lot of issues, but there is one major category, which makes he AI the most unplayable, and makes it to where they break missions or cause you to super micro manage, (navigation)

 

Their navigation, in general but mostly vehicles, needs to be the most improved. I understand they have to be very dynamic with pretty much no AI hints in the level, but they need to asses vehicle usage and formation much better.

 

I commanded a squad of subordinate tanks to go through a small town to reach the other side of an enemy front line, but they stalled at the town and just got stuck on some fences. 

 

They need to be able to adjust their formations  based on the situation, like going into a single file and following one another to make it through tight stretches. It seems to me that their formation is the priority over navigation, it should be to where formation should only be done where its reasonable, smashing down an entire house just to keep a V formation is a bit too extreme. 

 

They have trouble assessing the speed they should go to take turns, it seems as if the AI, when driving, just goes at a default pace when navigating. I have seen the AI, nearly all the time, when they have to go fast, just sail into a building trying to take a tight turn into a town.

 

They have trouble with moving around small objects, or multiple small objects (this includes fences, poles, and rocks) I have seen them on many occasions smash through fences when they are driving on a road with a lot of space, and get stuck on sandbags at military facilities.

 

One big issue they have is identifying the difference between huge objects, such as a bridge from a building, to them its as if its all the same, I have seen convoys (which are tedious to make because, like before, they cant adjust formation to do what makes sense) just stop right a bridge, and get very confused, they try to drive around the bridges and into ditches and stuck on a rock, (this also happens a lot.)

 

They have trouble with T sections on roads, they, most of time, take the turn too wide or too short, and that is what usually causes the hang-ups on small objects. 

 

Vehicles are a disaster to get into formation when they don't start in formation, through out all the time I have played in Arma, the AI has never pulled off a successful reformation when assigned to a leader...

 

Lot of the time they are impatient about people in front of their car, they either just drive right into you when they get bored, or try to avoid you, but hit and kill someone else because the AI can only assess 1 obstacle at a time (like mentioned before). 

 

My biggest pet peeve above all! Is how horrid the AI is at correcting itself when it is stuck, they just can't do it, if only they could correct them self properly, nearly all the mentioned problems could be fixed without micromanagement. When they get stuck on objects, they can't figure out how to reverse, and when they do, they don't re-assess the turn, they just do it again! They need to re-assess mistakes, using different calculations, all knowing that their previous calculation is invalid and unusable, and make it so they can figure out that they aren't making progress when they should be (gets stuck on a rock) and try reversing or speeding up over the object to fix themselves (they do sometimes, but usually they just do the same mistake, and most of the time they just go as if they were making progress.)

 

This isn't even all of AI's worst problems, this is just their most annoying ones. 

If you fixed all of their navigation issues (especially these), the game would be 150% better, and I would probably be a lot more inclined to play because the AI would be fun. 

[tortuosit 485]

Getting the AI to do want you want is already quite a challenge. Did this mean it's just got worse?

This is also not so much about benefit but more about disadvantage for Coop and single player. Do you really want to alienate those groups?

I'm getting bad bad vibes here.

Yeah, a working AI (especially: "not getting stuck") is pretty essential for the not so micro managed missions/modules/scripts like DAC/Alive etc...

But let's not forget they are working on AI driving. https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/191515-ai-driving-feedback-topic/

I don't think oukej wanted to say "all is lost for you SP folks". :D

[oukej 2910]

Oh, definitely not. Arma is a platform. I believe there's enough space and possibilities for everyone :) My post was about the individual "less AI friendly" locations (rocky, limited entry, narrow passes...) mentioned by metalcraze.

[Alwarren 2765]

Oh, definitely not. Arma is a platform. I believe there's enough space and possibilities for everyone :) My post was about the individual "less AI friendly" locations (rocky, limited entry, narrow passes...) mentioned by metalcraze.

Alright, you really scared me there for a moment. Thanks for the clarification.

Send from my tablet, so pardon any autocorrect bollocks

[metalcraze 290]

But isn't it logical to move AI navigation forward in parallel to other advances? There has not been any notable improvements to AI navigation since ArmA2.

It wasn't as noticeable with less detailed (and less vertical) maps before Tanoa - but now the issue is just glaring.

 

One thing is tanks having trouble moving through towns, that's a scenario that does not happen often and easier to accept. But AI infantry now being unable to access whole areas a player can is a big deal and should be a top priority.

 

Altis already allowed a player to exploit AI by just entering a house and whacking AIs from there and the chance that AI will even try attempting to enter the same house was always negligible. But now we are talking whole areas available to exploiting. It's not even some mountain path filled with non-terrain objects - the path is clear, just has rocks less than 4m apart. You can just sit there and pop AI heads with some marksman rifle without any punishment.

 

 

I could understand this too if AI being able to navigate seamlessly between a terrain mesh and world objects wasn't an industry standard in open world (or open map) games for decades now. Even Delta Force and Ghost Recon games did it nearly 20 years ago.

[tortuosit 485]

But isn't it logical to move AI navigation forward in parallel to other advances? There has not been any notable improvements to AI navigation since ArmA2.

 

But metalcraze, did you not see them currently working on AI? There are dedicated feedback threads here in this forum. Supression for instance. Or they said they pretty much rewrote big parts of driving code.