froggyluv 2130 Posted August 25, 2015 ^^ prolly yes. They can detect the slightest movement or camo pattern through that little gap :) Not true. Been testing this ALOT with Greenfists stellar AI Detector and can routinely ambush AI walking right past me in broad daylight while Im laying behind bush that they are walking past at less than 15m. The Enemy Cam clearly shows I have many pixels exposed even after they pass the viewblock of the bush so Im guessing clutter is indeed working better as well. Also had a fantastic moment in night forest battle in which I set up to snipe the town's guard in pretty pitch black conditions in which I had to use occasional flashlights - the guard (who had low skill level as they were tribal militia), were closing in on me with seemingly concentric circles but even at 10m out couldnt locate me though I was merely laying in grass but moving around. Almost jumped out of my seat when I heard their loud rustling in the grass an then the stars overhead were blocked out -they were right over me and man did they unload on me!!! :p Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
otrebla_snake_ita 2 Posted August 25, 2015 I have a couple of things I'd like to see, one is not an AI thing as such, but it'd still be most useful with the AI. The first is for the AIs to not be such snipers with shoulder fired unguided rockets. I know it could be annoying to have your AT guy miss a vital RPG shot, but my response is to get closer. The chance to hit an IFV sized target with an RPG 7 drops below 50% at 130m IRL. The second is the more important one. The Out of Ammo call. It's basically useless, especially with it triggering when he's "low" on AT ammo too. Could it not be more context sensetive, maybe giving a "2 Mags Left" or "Last Rocket" or the like. It'd be much more useful than "Low on Ammo", which could be down to ~2 mags of rifle ammo 2 rockets, or down to empty on either. About the first one: ​I've noticed sometimes the exact opposite, I've seen a man of my team missing twice (or three times in a row) a close tank inside a city, launching his rocket every time above the vehicle...It was pretty ridicolous xD A​bout the second one: I​ completely agree! It would be much better, useful and immersive too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeyCat 131 Posted August 25, 2015 Not true. Been testing this ALOT with Greenfists stellar AI Detector and can routinely ambush AI walking right past me in broad daylight while Im laying behind bush that they are walking past at less than 15m. The Enemy Cam clearly shows I have many pixels exposed even after they pass the viewblock of the bush so Im guessing clutter is indeed working better as well. Also had a fantastic moment in night forest battle in which I set up to snipe the town's guard in pretty pitch black conditions in which I had to use occasional flashlights - the guard (who had low skill level as they were tribal militia), were closing in on me with seemingly concentric circles but even at 10m out couldnt locate me though I was merely laying in grass but moving around. Almost jumped out of my seat when I heard their loud rustling in the grass an then the stars overhead were blocked out -they were right over me and man did they unload on me!!! :P Sounds like good improvements! I only have very limited time with current dev version and I did notice I could hide a bit better in ghillie when the AI was in safe/aware mode but as soon as within ~150 m and fired 1-2 shot without silencer (same simple test I used for a long time) they still turned around and pinpointed me within a few seconds. This was daytime. May I ask what AI settings you used for this test mission. AI settings in your .Arma3Profile and AI settings in the mission? Maybe you can share your mission for others to test? There must be an explanation to the different experiences we see and all I can think of is the AI settings and of course time of day... Must remember to use Greenfists AI detector next round! /KC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cosmic10r 2325 Posted August 25, 2015 Some testing with branches and gaps 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
froggyluv 2130 Posted August 25, 2015 Sorry Keycat its a mission on Nzwasago that Ill be releasing at some point but requires alot of addons -cause thats just how I like it :) Haven't messed with any of the Arma config settings and no AI mod but I did set all of the Militias skill bars to almost zero with a few exceptions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeyCat 131 Posted August 25, 2015 np froggyluv, I will toy around with my AI skill settings and see what happens. /KC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greenfist 1863 Posted August 26, 2015 I found a couple of broken models. The AI can see through some parts of them. "Land_Factory_Main_F": At least the eastern part is see-through. And sometimes the AI even tries to shoot through it. "Land_u_House_Big_01_V1_F": The boarded up windows at the second floor don't affect AI's vision or shooting. The are different variants this house, but they don't seem to have the same issue. The Kavala hospital's lobby windows are opaque to AI. These were tested in today's 1.50RC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oukej 2910 Posted August 26, 2015 Thanks a lot for the heads up. Will take a look. We've been aware of the boarded up windows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soulis6 24 Posted August 26, 2015 I posted this a topic on AI reaction times, but I think it should go here too, it's something i've been thinking about a lot for the Arma AI: Basically the problem is that unit identification and hostile engagement is instant and automagical, there's no 'threat condition' or 'perceived danger' value with units. A routine patrol in a friendly controlled base next to a civilian city, where they may not have seen enemy contact for months will react just as fast to a half-glimpse of an enemy or a partial ID and will be just as quick to fire, as a fire team in hostile territory who were recently engaged and are expecting to see enemies around the next corner. In both cases, just seeing unknown movement from the corner of their vision for a second will cause them to immediately open fire without warning their surrounding group or double checking that the threat is indeed an enemy, but really in the case of the routine patrol in the friendly base, you'd want them to maybe call out or move to get a closer look or report something suspicious to their squad leader. Not to mention that units will fire on shadowy figures in the dark that are barely visible at all, regardless of what their state or surrounding context is. I think a good solution would be to give AI groups an 'expected danger' setting, able to be set by the mission editor, and possibly changed during gameplay (if they move from a friendly base to the frontlines for example), along with a unit specific internal suspicion gauge/meter. This suspicion meter would go up faster or slower depending on this expected danger setting, whenever they see something out of the ordinary (i.e. sighting an unknown partially obscured unit, or seeing movement on the edge of their peripheral vision, etc), and when this meter reaches a threshold it would kick off some sort of behavior. If it was just a quick glimpse where they aren't sure they actually saw anything (the meter didn't reach this threshold), they would just resume normal behavior and the meter would slowly decrease. What behavior it kicks off is a whole other question, and not an easy one, given the amount of variables and different situations that are possible, but something easy and more effective at the least would be to let the squad leader know they saw something unidentified over in X direction, so they could at least direct someone to watch that area, and maybe bump them up to 'Aware' if they were in 'Safe' mode, for a couple minutes maybe. More advanced would be having someone go over and get a closer look if it's nearby, or yell a warning or identification request, etc. This behavior could be specified by the groups 'expected danger', as it would certainly change depending on situation. And all of this would of course be inactive while the group is in a active combat state, they just continue to act as they do now, being quick to identify and target hostile units. But all of this would allow a lot more nuanced stealth and special ops gameplay, which to my mind is pretty essential considering the game is often geared towards "Behind enemy lines" type special ops missions, or nighttime raids, that sort of thing. It definitely wouldn't need to be as in depth as a full on stealth game, but just a few changes in the way that target ID works would go a long way I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ImperialAlex 72 Posted August 27, 2015 open fire without warning their surrounding group or double checking that the threat is indeed an enemy Not what soulis6 is requesting, but wouldn't it be great if the AI had a chance to get the side-identification wrong every now and then? Friendly-fire might be hard to implement because of the renegade punishment system, however mistaking enemies for friendlies might be feasible? :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1124 Posted August 27, 2015 I got some reports related to AI issues, but no repro missions or detailed info, so if someone want to take up that task 1. AI instantly gains knowsabout and position of player when you wound/damage it which is issue when behin soft cover like vegetation (AI opens fire on your location) 2. AI detects / sees / recognize player not only within 'correct' cone of view but also exactly in opposite 180 of it (seems like the scan cone / beam goes both way) feel free to prove it true or false , I applaud if it helps resolve it for good ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bad benson 1733 Posted August 27, 2015 1. AI instantly gains knowsabout and position of player when you wound/damage it which is issue when behin soft cover like vegetation (AI opens fire on your location) damn, i thought this one was resolved a while back. it's one of those things that have been in the series for ages. do they still magically spin or do they turn slowly towards you? i could swear at least the spin was fixed in alpha. i bet initially there was some reasoning behind them being able to spot you like that when directly hit, but i still think it's bad. i could see them having a little more spotting accuracy justified by urgency but i'd love to see these cheat things be removed. i'm wondering if that recently added target info command had any impact on the AI itself in a way that knowsabout might be replaced as a gauge so AI knowledge can be made much more reactive and dynamic. always hated that one way street of being fully spotted one time and then you gotta basically hide forever to get unspotted again eventhough you are concealed and made a huge effort to lose them. that could make stealth gameplay sort of an additional natural possibility, which is something i always wanted in arma. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dr. hladik 231 Posted August 28, 2015 I got some reports related to AI issues, but no repro missions or detailed info, so if someone want to take up that task 1. AI instantly gains knowsabout and position of player when you wound/damage it which is issue when behin soft cover like vegetation (AI opens fire on your location) 2. AI detects / sees / recognize player not only within 'correct' cone of view but also exactly in opposite 180 of it (seems like the scan cone / beam goes both way) feel free to prove it true or false , I applaud if it helps resolve it for good ... 1. Not true. It is just very rough estimite. 2. Not true. Can hear. Cannot see or recognize. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
h - 169 Posted August 28, 2015 I really hope you guys (I mean BIS) actually have some sort AI debugging tool similar to what we can use for the PhysX stuff with the diagnostic exe thing. If you do why not give it to use to use because trying to make repro mission is insanely hard due to the nature of beast. Would be way easier to determine what the AI is doing if we could "see" and "hear" what the AI does than trying to write all kinds of scripts with the very limited means we have to ascertain the AI's perception of it's surroundings. And if you don't have such a tool, seriously?? If we already have access to such a tool, please point me to it asap... Just did some testing on the issue 1. and there is no exact insta-knowledge happening at least in my limited test (only one type of bush tested so of course the way the AI "sees" you through the concealment plays a huge factor when it starts to look for the source of it's injury/crack it heard). - I was using silenced MX: the AI gets knowsAbout of 1.5 when you wound it from behind concealment, 1.35 if it hears the bullet crack near. The delay between being hit/hearing bullet crack and gaining the knowsAbout seems to depend on the distance between the shooter and the target, which is a bit odd because that suggests the AI has some sort of preconception of the target before getting the knowledge... Seems to be an "artificial" delay rather than based on say the AI's "hearing" for example, or other information it has about it's surroundings. But since we can't "see/hear" what the AI does we can only assume.. - With non-silenced MX: the same result. It may seem insta-knowledge since the distance seems to be a factor, and if the player is even partly seen by the AI when it starts to look for the source of it's injury/crack it heard it will instantly engage you when it spots you (seems to throw nades when it has no idea where you are). So as above, from the dev's mouth, agreed on myth busted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted August 28, 2015 1. Not true. It is just very rough estimite. 2. Not true. Can hear. Cannot see or recognize. Is it AI hearing why the AI detects player behind a bush when the AI is not facing the player at all in the cosmic10r's video? I can't now check the timing in the video but it's pretty much in the last minute. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kremator 1064 Posted August 28, 2015 Not true. Been testing this ALOT with Greenfists stellar AI Detector and can routinely ambush AI walking right past me in broad daylight while Im laying behind bush that they are walking past at less than 15m. The Enemy Cam clearly shows I have many pixels exposed even after they pass the viewblock of the bush so Im guessing clutter is indeed working better as well. Also had a fantastic moment in night forest battle in which I set up to snipe the town's guard in pretty pitch black conditions in which I had to use occasional flashlights - the guard (who had low skill level as they were tribal militia), were closing in on me with seemingly concentric circles but even at 10m out couldnt locate me though I was merely laying in grass but moving around. Almost jumped out of my seat when I heard their loud rustling in the grass an then the stars overhead were blocked out -they were right over me and man did they unload on me!!! :P But haven't AI always ignored you lying underneath a bush? Try standing up behind that bush :) Will Try Greenfists AI detector .. sounds interesting. Thanks mate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeyCat 131 Posted August 28, 2015 But haven't AI always ignored you lying underneath a bush? No not always, not even with a ghillie suit on. There have been improvements lately and I was able to hide behind bushes (again completely still and wearing ghillie) when a small group of AI walked by (they where in safe mode). I have not had time to run my old test mission (I use the same old mission and procedure to better judge any changes) but will do so coming weekend and see whats happen, hopefully this old issues is fixed as dr. hladik say in his previous post. If someone else want's to give it a go my simple test mission and repro step I have been using before is below. If you do please post your results... https://www.dropbox.com/s/mwf4x4eop8snrgm/A3_AI_Terminators.zip Repro steps (Veteran with AI skill = 0.70): 1. At mission start go prone directly. 2. Crawl ~25 m to NW you will see the road cone in the bush. 3. Take a nice prone position in/under the bush on the right side and look into the base NW with 4x scope, you should see the AI group standing with their backs against you. 4. Try kill the guy at the corner of the white building using 1-2 shots in rapid fire then just lay still. 5. Result ??? (Since allowDamage = False you will not die even if they hit you.) In earlier versions the AI turned around and instantly spotted you and engaged your exact position. PS: Would be nice to know what AI skill settings the devs use when they test the AI so test can be done as equal as possible. /KC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cosmic10r 2325 Posted August 28, 2015 Another couple videos First one was testing Dwardens point on the knowsabout. In the top corner I have the new targetknowledge hinted. Seemed like he had the threat perception from the thrown grenade but the reaction to me being visible was fast imo. I have nerfed spotDistance and SpotTime pretty deeply as well. Ignore me throwing the green light lol.... Some weird stuff going on in the house in the second part too... I wonder how much of the unnatural reaction speed is because they seem to get snippets of target knowledge even through houses? This one was testing the Reaction times... a certain points it seems very realstic and other times it seems like the reaction time is fast when you come up on them. Will continue to test of course. Remember that the purple line is where they are looking. There are a couple of moments where the reaction is too fast for my liking including the spin while prone at the end of the video... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeyCat 131 Posted August 28, 2015 Not allowed to watch them, it says "This video is private". /KC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cosmic10r 2325 Posted August 28, 2015 Not allowed to watch them, it says "This video is private". /KC Oops... lol... should be working now... these are a bit longer as I was trying to show the specific situation... will try terminators tonight ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeyCat 131 Posted August 28, 2015 Love your videos (and Greenfist's awesome script!). Noticed you test with single AI, would be great to see some action engaging smaller squads. Regarding the reaction time in the second video I don't really think it's to bad. I mean when the AI is in combat mode and he already know enemies are around he should be on full alert. In RL and in combat I can assume your senses would be on full alert and the body full of adrenaline etc. For me the best option would be if the skill slider worked more linear and 0.5 was a "good" middle ground. Of course the dev's already thought of all this and there are script commands that can affect many of the AI parameters and that's why I'm curious of what settings they recommend us to use while testing (0.5???). Maybe it's really hard to find that "middle ground" and have it working convincing in all different combat scenarios like CQB, stealth type missions, middle range engagements and so on... That being said I'm real happy the dev's pays attention to this and for example improved the clutter effects on AI in latest patch. /KC 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seba1976 98 Posted August 28, 2015 No not always, not even with a ghillie suit on. Do wearing uniforms, head gear, vests, etc. modify unit spotability? I don't remember what was the latest on this, but there was a debate not too long ago here in this section. Hell, I don't even remember what my stand was on that :) . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bad benson 1733 Posted August 28, 2015 Do wearing uniforms, head gear, vests, etc. modify unit spotability? I don't remember what was the latest on this, but there was a debate not too long ago here in this section. Hell, I don't even remember what my stand was on that :) . not sure how exactly it works in arma 3 but in arma 2 there was a camoflage value for each unit to make ghillie snipers be spotted less quickly than other units. not sure how it transfered to arma 3 but i guess these values are in uniforms now? that would be kind of neat actually. it's likely since i don't think the system was replaced or removed. so i guess in short: i'd be interested to know the specifics too :unsure: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
froggyluv 2130 Posted August 28, 2015 Kinda remember trying to mess with that Camo value in Arma 2 tho I dont remember it being as dynamic as i'd like it -the possibilities would be endless if it were.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cosmic10r 2325 Posted August 29, 2015 Love your videos (and Greenfist's awesome script!). Noticed you test with single AI, would be great to see some action engaging smaller squads. Regarding the reaction time in the second video I don't really think it's to bad. I mean when the AI is in combat mode and he already know enemies are around he should be on full alert. In RL and in combat I can assume your senses would be on full alert and the body full of adrenaline etc. For me the best option would be if the skill slider worked more linear and 0.5 was a "good" middle ground. Of course the dev's already thought of all this and there are script commands that can affect many of the AI parameters and that's why I'm curious of what settings they recommend us to use while testing (0.5???). Maybe it's really hard to find that "middle ground" and have it working convincing in all different combat scenarios like CQB, stealth type missions, middle range engagements and so on... That being said I'm real happy the dev's pays attention to this and for example improved the clutter effects on AI in latest patch. /KC Credit to Greenfist for a great mission... I haven't got all the features working on a group. I'll give it a whirl though. I agree on your point about the AI being on high alert... I think what seems odd in some cases is the sheer speed of the reaction... In that case it was only a 45 degree rotation or so and he wasn't facing directly away, so it's not impossible I suppose. The new tweaks have made a big difference in my opinion and I love the randomness of the experience... I'm testing few different mods and scripts to see if I can affect the AI in a huge way and then scale it back from there... The AI seems to want to survive though... which I don't consider a bad thing lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
