AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Bouben 3]

Well, half of it is a giant unarmored optical system.

I don't know how much it is supposed to take IRL, but remember how the Panther and BTR turrets can be disabled with bullets?

I understand that but the optics are not bulletproof in anyway? I mean, no ballistic glass or something?

[maturin 12]

Making a bulletproof optic like that can't be possible. I mean, look at the thing. It's like strapping a laptop to a machinegun.

[Bouben 3]

Making a bulletproof optic like that can't be possible. I mean, look at the thing. It's like strapping a laptop to a machinegun.

OK man, I am just asking. Thanks for the opinion.

[msy 22]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Currently, it doesn't take injures or suppression into account.

Will you take suppressing AI into account next month?

[das attorney 857]

Wrong thread nvm

Edited February 28, 2014 by Das Attorney

[xendance 3]

Would it be possible to make enemy vehicles with thermal cameras see better in the dark? They should be able to spot enemies kilometers away if they'd properly scan the surroundings.

[barakokula31 10]

They should be able to spot enemies kilometers away if they'd properly scan the surroundings.

Are thermals really that effective in real life?

[CaptainObvious 95]

Are thermals really that effective in real life?

Yes they are.

[Tankbuster 1733]

Are thermals really that effective in real life?

Technically, the radiation from an object at that distance is capable of travelling that distance and the sensors in such devices is capable of detecting that, but the displays on them aren't of a resolution really capable of displaying that in a usable way.

[Tonci87 163]

Technically, the radiation from an object at that distance is capable of travelling that distance and the sensors in such devices is capable of detecting that, but the displays on them aren't of a resolution really capable of displaying that in a usable way.

In other words, you can see a white shape, but you still have to figure out if that is a cow or a tank engine.

The FLIR in Arma is way too clear. But hey, it´s the future, they will have them improved by then :j:

Edited March 2, 2014 by Tonci87

[Tankbuster 1733]

In other words, you can see a white shape, but you still have to figure out if that is a cow or a tank engine.

The FLIR in Arma is way too clear. But hey, it´s the future, they will have them imptoved by then :j:

this, this and this.

[xendance 3]

In other words, you can see a white shape, but you still have to figure out if that is a cow or a tank engine.

The FLIR in Arma is way too clear. But hey, it´s the future, they will have them improved by then :j:

Aren't vehicle mounted FLIRs pretty good nowadays?

Edit: Based on some youtube vids, from 1400 meters away people are very visible and distinguishable.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Xendance

[d3nn16 3]

Here is maybe a useful idea that can help devs make AI better. It is a about a concept that tries to explain in one formula how intelligence works (like Einstein's e=mc²). I let you discover if there is anything to pull out of this.

http://www.ted.com/talks/alex_wissner_gross_a_new_equation_for_intelligence.html

http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf

[CaptainObvious 95]

Aren't vehicle mounted FLIRs pretty good nowadays?

Yes, and they are capable of zooming in and focusing the image, no way the operator would confuse a cow with a tank engine.

This pic was taken with 9 degrees FOV without focusing, the target is minding his business some 500 to 600 meters out, the narrow FOV in that system was 3 degrees.

I'd say it's a piece of cake to spot, identify and engage soft targets within the range of M2 BMG, which I believe is the HMG in Arma.

What's wrong with the thermals in Arma is the "lack of heat" in the environment, in the pic above it was around minus 30 degrees celsius so not very much of the terrain or other natural things can be seen but the soldier and his jacket hanging in the tree stands out very much like in Arma on a hot midsummer noon, THAT is the problem, not the clear image of the target itself.

Edited March 2, 2014 by CaptainObvious
Wrong numbers

[msy 22]

Here is maybe a useful idea that can help devs make AI better. It is a about a concept that tries to explain in one formula how intelligence works (like Einstein's e=mc²). I let you discover if there is anything to pull out of this.

http://www.ted.com/talks/alex_wissner_gross_a_new_equation_for_intelligence.html

http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf

The biggest problem is AI in ARMA3 are totally unexceptable. You never correctly judge what action AI will do the next. So somebody said it is because AI is so smart? NO! For example, the chess, right, there are two players, one is a professional player, the other is a 3-year-old baby without any knowledge of chess. Then the game begins, the baby do a mess, SO AS the AI in ARMA series -- except the classic OFP, because in OFP the AI has little choice but to do something in common sense!

That's what I want to say to devs and I wish they can make AI more controllable.

This is what I want if I am the commander:

When I run they must run with me whatever happens, I will tell if I am wrong. I quickly pass a crossroad so do the AI. Only I can say it is clear -- Oh GOD in ARMA series I even can't say CLEAR to AI, only they can tell me it is clear -- and when I order them retreat they must fall back as fast as they can!

Unless BIS can make an AI really like a professional soldier, then don't make the AI ruin my plan! In this stage I only wish the AI can be like FORREST GUMP.

Edited March 3, 2014 by msy

[potemps 1]

Most of people - in order to defend arma 3 AI, will tell that its super advanced, becouse it need to control everything, vehicles, infrantry etc. Problem is that - Arma AI not work properly for anything, not for infantry, not for vehicles. AI didnt have any sense of being carreful about they own lives, just running arround and dizzy'ing around like some band of alcoholics after very big party. You see, there is a game that everyone laugh about - Dragon Rising, i dont like it - its been a disaster, but actually AI in this game works better than in whole ARMA series...In Arma they dont even know how to run away if they dont have any chance to win.

AI is very important in every sim game, more important than graphics - becouse its give you immersion that you are in war actually, not in some kindergarden. I resigned to play any coops with my friends, becouse i felt like im playing Left 4 dead mixed with some modern army game. Last thing i want to say - I know there is a whole island to cover by the AI system, there is a hundred of thousands objects whitch AI need to take in its calculations - OK, but you know why AI need to cover whole island, and there is no some kind of battle zone around a player closest area, whitch is need to be covered by the AI, i will be more simple for computers to handle it and speed up a AI calculations....Becouse for now after 13 years of development we have really nice graphics, new fancy animations, and AI whitch is totall mess.

[d3nn16 3]

msy+potemps = ~22 lines of complaint (legit but still complaint) / 0 improvement suggestions

4 lines = 1 suggestion

Let's extrapolate, how do you want devs to improve AI when they have to read 80% (4/22) of crying players and 20% of maybe useful suggestions.

Let's end the discussion here, this thread doesn't deserve more. I totally agree with you AI is a mess (I think devs know it too :-) but try be constructive.

[potemps 1]

You are wrong, i made a suggestion :) Quoting myself -

(...) Last thing i want to say - I know there is a whole island to cover by the AI system, there is a hundred of thousands objects whitch AI need to take in its calculations - OK, but you know why AI need to cover whole island, and there is no some kind of battle zone around a player closest area, whitch is need to be covered by the AI, i will be more simple for computers to handle it and speed up a AI calculations (...)

Notice that - I'm not a programmer, and dont know nothing about this.

Regards :)

[msy 22]

msy+potemps = ~22 lines of complaint (legit but still complaint) / 0 improvement suggestions

4 lines = 1 suggestion

Let's extrapolate, how do you want devs to improve AI when they have to read 80% (4/22) of crying players and 20% of maybe useful suggestions.

Let's end the discussion here, this thread doesn't deserve more. I totally agree with you AI is a mess (I think devs know it too :-) but try be constructive.

OK, it is my suggestion, sorry for wrighting at phone client.

3 princeples for ai

1. ai must obey my order with clear response,

2.they can advise me, and try to make me change my mind,

3. they mustn't do what they want without my permission.

----

so i say again:

when i run they must run, any cause is my duty, they may advise me, but only i will tell if i am wrong.

when i say retreat they must fall back ASAP.

only i can say area clear, and they can give me advise, but if i dont change my mind they must take it as clear.

last but not least: ai must help me achieve my plan, not ruin my plan.

Edited March 4, 2014 by msy

[silverwave 11]

Here's my suggestions:

Basic contact maneuvers should be easy to execute with AI controlled units.

By that I mean: You are advancing in the field in a wedge formation and you get fired upon.

1. Everyone fires 2 rounds in the approximate direction of the enemy to have it pinned-down.

2. Usually, you start crawling to form a line facing the enemy to maximize fire power.

3. You then dedicate a portion of the squad/team to provide suppressing fire (at the moment, when you ask suppresive fire, nothing happens)

4. You will then pop some smoke if available and the remaining soldiers (not part of the suppression fire) will follow the team leader to go on flanking.

5. Once at the start line, suppresive fire will start and then converge away from the flanking section as flanking advance toward enemy.

6. At close distance, grenades will be thrown.

7. You then consolidate by recalling the support section into forming an all-around defense on your position.

At the moment, this is what I need to do to be able to do that (and most of the time, it just wouldn't work properly).

I get fired upon, I need to:

1. Tell my guys to get down.

2. Tell them to form a line.

3. Ask few of them to stay there (which is confusingly called : Wait for me).

4. Throw myself some smoke, because AI is incapable of doing this by their own.

5. Ask the assault section to form a file.

6. Ask them to hold fire not to reveal our position (at least, if someone pops up close, they will still shoot).

7. When on the start line, ask them to form line.

8. Ask the support team to start suppresive fire (which they won't).

9. Throw myself some grenades because AI is incapable of doing it.

10. Ask the assault section to open fire.

11. If the support section was actually doing suppresive fire, I would probably need to ask them to converge fire away from the assault section because they probably wouldn't do it by themselves.

12. Ask the support section to cease fire when it's obvious they converged so much that's is impossible they hit an enemy anymore.

13. Ask the support section to regroup.

14. Ask everyone to form an all-around defense (which is called Diamond... which is not exactly the same, but let's pretend it's fine).

Here's what I'd expect I would need to tell my team.

We get fired upon while in open field (they should never do that in CQB!)

1. I don't ask anything to my guys, they are professional soldiers and they know they need to fire 2 rounds in the approximate direction and then get down on their own.

2. I would probably need to manually tell them to form a line because there are times you wouldn't want them to do that.

3. I ask one of my group "You are support team". They implicitly know they need to stay there and shoot at the enemy with slow but constant fire.

4. I tell the rest "You are assault team" so they know they'll have to pop smoke now, then follow me in a file formation.

5. When I reach my destination, I tell my assault team : "Form line".

6. I tell all my guys "H-Hour now". Automatically, my support team start the suppressing fire and they will auto-converge the fire away from the assault section and stop firing when they converged enough (can be calculated with an angle, for ex. when they converged 45 degrees, they stop the suppress fire).

At the same time, my assault team throw grenades then start moving forward toward the enemy position by covering-moving each others.

7. When I'm satisfied that we eliminated the enemy, I tell everyone to "Reorg" (short for reorganise) and they regroup and form an all-around defense.

* For the purist, yeah I know I skipped few steps in the combat drill but they would be probably too hard to implement and wouldn't be that intuitive for the non-military players.

[Sealife 22]

Hi ,

Is Ai Totally fucked to Arma 1 standard or my own brain went back in time ?

Seems whether Addwaypoint , Domove (moveto in FSM) , (here modeltoworld [0,0,0]) and many fucking more these stupid assed Retarded Ai will not got within 5 meters , it take me back to 2006 all over . I thought it was Meter accurate or even less ?

EDIT

Forget this i just saw you spent a whole 6 month developing a module that allows me to make flash of lightning to place the thick bastard where i need him , no more need for AI waypoints , i wondered what that tool was for , you need to rename it , Just when you you thought a thick fuck Ai ruined your mission KABOOM FLASH Zues is here to save you. ZAP and the Ai is back on track .

I have Entry for MANW in the mean time WANKZ : based on a true story of an AI that only wanted to get to his destination that wasnt a Building POS :).

Cheers

[maturin 12]

Translation: You haven't learned how to use the new engine and editor. Changes happen.

[maddogx 13]

Sounds like someone needs a little vacation to cool off. See you in April.

So yeah, let's keep this thread constructive please. :rolleyes:

[instagoat 133]

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13397

There's a need to take a look at these issues. Right now, they are a nuisance to commanding AI in vehicles, and the ticket has been open for a long time and received surprisingly little attention. Am I the only one driving around in vehicles together with AI?

[Bouben 3]

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13397

There's a need to take a look at these issues. Right now, they are a nuisance to commanding AI in vehicles, and the ticket has been open for a long time and received surprisingly little attention. Am I the only one driving around in vehicles together with AI?

If the engine on/off is still essential for being targeted on the radar then yes, that is a critical feature.