AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Azzur33 1]

New tickets, everyone. I think I discovered a new little bug in AI detection. May have contributed to that issue BadBenson and I were arguing over so much

Interesting that one. It happens sometimes, sometimes doesn't.

And if it doesn't, and AI begins scanning and turning around slowly, I can empty the rest of the magazine near him, throw a couple of grenades for fun, and he doesn't react.

He is doing his "scan".

If I could, I would shout him "YO! I'm HERE! LOOK!".

But that would have no effect.

He is just doing his "scan".

He notices me only when his "scan" reaches the point when he sees me, eventually.

What i've noticed is that prone AI units tend to fire alot into the ground, even on high skill.

Noticed a lot of dirt kickup and then realized they were mostly firing into the ground.

If you are prone and shoot, the air pressure out of the muzzle kicks the dirt up. They are not firing to the ground.

[maturin 12]

Interesting that one. It happens sometimes, sometimes doesn't.

And if it doesn't, and AI begins scanning and turning around slowly, I can empty the rest of the magazine near him, throw a couple of grenades for fun, and he doesn't react.

He is doing his "scan".

If I could, I would shout him "YO! I'm HERE! LOOK!".

But that would have no effect.

He is just doing his "scan".

He notices me only when his "scan" reaches the point when he sees me, eventually.

---------- Post added at 21:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

If you are prone and shoot, the air pressure out of the muzzle kicks the dirt up. They are not firing to the ground.

That's been a pet peeve of mine since A2. They don't 'learn,' or improve their position-guessing based on new information.

But the AI Log indicated that such a feature is on the way, so I'm not going to ticket it at the moment.

And by the way, the AI does land a lot of rounds absurdly short, 'firing into the ground.' They don't miss the way we do, putting rounds just a bit too high or to one side. The engine just dooms them to make a number of really awful shots.

[GottyPlays 10]

Regular difficulty, one single enemy AI, skill 0.5, having one "HOLD" waypoint, open fire engage at will, full speed. (this setUnitPos "DOWN" in init field, but this is not necessary, you can shoot so he prone). Approaching from behind, I'm still able to move around him, without being shot.

Conclusion: need to increase the rotation speed for AI prone stance or make him aim faster with upper part of the body, or something else.

Nope, totally disagree. the rotation while prone is good as is, if you were prone aiming in front of you, and i popped up behind you with a rifle in my hands, you won't surely tele-warp your body 180 degrees right? probably you would stand up so you could turn faster. that's the solution, gameplay wise i don't want to see ai warp 180 degrees :P

[mr_centipede 31]

^ rotation while prone:

IRL you just roll on your back and shoot. Few seconds 180 turn. If AI can do that (animation) it would be more believable. But for now, increasing prone rotate speed is suffice

[mrflay 4]

Two issues with knowsabout.

If AI has seen a unit, it will know when it is killed by enemy fire (even if it is not in audible/visible range).

AI will know about all units on the same side in the direction it is facing (even though there are obstacles in the way).

[metalcraze 290]

Nope, totally disagree. the rotation while prone is good as is, if you were prone aiming in front of you, and i popped up behind you with a rifle in my hands, you won't surely tele-warp your body 180 degrees right?

Why not? Any human player can do that, why not AI?

Why it's OK for a human player to "tele-wrap" 180 degrees in 0.1 seconds prone but not for AI?

[cthulhu616 3]

MrFlay, is there something like a debug function or did u script this one?

[fabrizio_t 58]

If you are prone and shoot, the air pressure out of the muzzle kicks the dirt up. They are not firing to the ground.

Indeed they are. Otherwise bullet would hit target. Simple as that.

I'm not talking about dirt puffs.

[bad benson 1733]

i have to agree with metalcraze a little bit. not about how to achieve it but the general thought. it always bugged me that the now so called "quick-turn" never (rarely) happened in close range. so before the changes we had super quick slidey turns in long range and painfully slow in close range. i mentioned that before in that thread. it seems reversed. now it's better since long range seems kinda fixed in that regard but i think that anything that would make AI in close range super deadly would be great.

at least some simple road or surface checks to avoid prone on roads and urban ground. there will be enough cover anyways and they know how to use it well enough.

EDIT: and MrFlay. that looks troubling to say the least...

Edited August 28, 2013 by Bad Benson

[fabrizio_t 58]

at least some simple road or surface checks to avoid prone on roads and urban ground. there will be enough cover anyways and they know how to use it well enough.

It would probably suffice to check presence and number of nearby buildings.

(That's how i scripted that a while ago).

[Tyl3r99 41]

Two issues with knowsabout.

If AI has seen a unit, it will know when it is killed by enemy fire (even if it is not in audible/visible range).

AI will know about all units on the same side in the direction it is facing (even though there are obstacles in the way).

put the repro missions on the FT for the devs so they can resolve this issue

[mrflay 4]

MrFlay, is there something like a debug function or did u script this one?

It's my own debug script.

put the repro missions on the FT for the devs so they can resolve this issue

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13493

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13494

[mr_centipede 31]

I noticed something, that maybe good or bad...

A group of AI (1 blufor infantry squad) detected 1 Armored vehicle (Marid) and they run away, probably fleeing. Skill in editor is as per default. in arma3.cfg is at 0.60. On one occasion the infantry managed to destroy the vehicle then decided to run away.

Upped their skill in editor, and they will stay put longer.

Is this intended behavior?

[Azzur33 1]

Indeed they are. Otherwise bullet would hit target. Simple as that.

I'm not talking about dirt puffs.

I have No idea what you are talking about.

My AI isn't firing to the ground. They hit also. If you are close, every bullet hits.

I just tested with lots of differend scenarios.

They were prone, and not firing to the ground. I heard cracks, saw tracers.

Even if was far and prone, they didn't fire to the ground any more than they fired over me or left or right.

Then try putting yourself near the top of a hill. Put prone enemy AI units close, on the opposite side.

Enjoy the fireworks ... full-auto fire into the ground. This was an old problem affecting ArmA2 too, but it has worsened now.

What do you mean? They'll try to shoot through the hill?

A repro mission would be nice.

And by the way, the AI does land a lot of rounds absurdly short, 'firing into the ground.' They don't miss the way we do, putting rounds just a bit too high or to one side. The engine just dooms them to make a number of really awful shots.

Sorry, can't see that either. AI accuracy is not so good for some reason at the moment, but I haven't noticed any low shot tendency with the missed shots. Most of the shots go over or from the left or right, not to the ground.

Like a circle of missed shots around me. Do you mean that kind of dispersion?

I haven't tested AI in few days before now, maybe something was changed/fixed in todays patch?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Azzur33

[klamacz 447]

Guys, please note that AI accuracy was revamped recently. If you see any issues like hitting ground instead of target in some obvious situations remember about providing repro mission.

Also, you can encounter less accurate AI enemies, this is part of designed change and is supposed to make them less deadly as after other fixes (ballistic and rotation) they started to be god-like deadly. So, please put your feedback about their shooting abilities but take into account their skill, difficulty settings and general situation.

For example, I consider myself veteran so I made them behave acceptable for me on veteran setting. Elite difficulty is a bit too deadly for me ;)

[bad benson 1733]

I consider myself veteran so I made them behave acceptable for me on veteran setting. Elite difficulty is a bit too deadly for me

that sounds good. would be nice to have well balanced dissiculty settings eventually. i'll try to make some more tests. last time i checked my old repro they had a really hard time hitting me at all. might have been just the first impression though. what would be ideal is what has been described by others here. a circular area of hits that gets tighter. so the AI then would just take longer to zero in on lower difficulty settings instead of having a hard time to hit in general. might be already a case. it's just what i imagine to be good to keep them deadly but give the player more time to find cover/react in general.

[maturin 12]

Guys, please note that AI accuracy was revamped recently. If you see any issues like hitting ground instead of target in some obvious situations remember about providing repro mission.

Also, you can encounter less accurate AI enemies, this is part of designed change and is supposed to make them less deadly as after other fixes (ballistic and rotation) they started to be god-like deadly. So, please put your feedback about their shooting abilities but take into account their skill, difficulty settings and general situation.

For example, I consider myself veteran so I made them behave acceptable for me on veteran setting. Elite difficulty is a bit too deadly for me ;)

Those of use who aren't script savvy are very much in need of some sort of simple hit rate counter.

If anyone could post a simple init.sqf, I (and others, I'm sure) would love to provide statistical data.

It is certainly my impression that the AI is often unable to hit anything now. But it is hard to act on general impressions, and if you turned the AI accuracy down to zero, everyone would report awesome gameplay as they had tons of fun winning every scenario.

One solid piece of feedback that I have: AI autoriflemen (both group leaders and subordinates) are using single shots at 200-300m. That can't be right.

Accuracy Test

Conditions: Prone AI rifleman shooting standing player, 100m. Unit skill 50%, Enemy skill in Game Option 0.76. precisionEnemy=0.56799883

3 hits out of 30 shots

Conditions: Prone AI rifleman prone standing player, 100m. Unit skill 50%, Enemy skill in Game Option 0.76. precisionEnemy=0.56799883

7 hits out of 60 shots

There should be a big difference between shooting prone and standing targets. There should be a big difference between shooting while prone and shooting while standing.

Currently we don't see either, probably because base accuracy has been turned down so low that stance, encumbrance and fatigue can't make much of a difference.

And what we really need is an AI that starts shooting poorly and then gets more accurate with each single shot. This simulates the AI walking rounds onto the target while also giving the player a chance to survive accurate AI (which should be a real threat to point targets out to 200m or so).

Edited August 28, 2013 by maturin

[cthulhu616 3]

dunno if it's already known...

but when i give a wp to a group of AI with behaviour "Safe" and Speed "Limit" their animation seem to freeze after some seconds... could someone confirm this?

[papanowel 120]

dunno if it's already known...

but when i give a wp to a group of AI with behaviour "Safe" and Speed "Limit" their animation seem to freeze after some seconds... could someone confirm this?

I made a ticket:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13518

Edit: problem solved with the last dev patch.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Papanowel

[fragmachine 12]

It would be awesome if the AI could use all the stances - but it is dreaming. Also there is need for prone to 180 degree roll for AI in very CQB (AI taken by surprise) and maintaining/switching to crouch stance in CQB.

[Smurf 12]

I must say I'm impressed with the recent changes. Just setted a quick skimirish between 2 squads and some reinforcements on a village and the AI way less proned to go prone (:j:), got some human like reactions when flanking them, some sharp turning without problem, they maitained some unit cohesion while moving even under fire and even saw some really agressive attacking\flanking. At one point I had a "battle buddy", an AI following me everywhere and providing some cover fire and all that, but that isn't new is it?

But it wasn't all good; nobody used grenades, GL or smoke (battle range < 200m), some friendly fire with stacking units (one crouched and other behind it standing, the first stand to move, bang!) and while spectating a round saw a unit firing at the some enemies, moving and then firing some rounds at other unit that was across the street with 2 buildings between them <= The "knows too much" thing.

There is any possibility to tweak the AI for vehicle usage in the future? Instead of rush in, provide some base of fire and cover, use of counter measures and more.

[maturin 12]

Yeah, we really need some routines for choppers and IFVs to choose standoff positions and then use saturation fire on any enemy in sight. Autocannons and GMGs just aren't as terrifying as they would be in human hands.

[Windwalking 18]

Recent AI changes are amazing. However AI driver still gets stuck in the terrain a lot. They continue to try to force their way forward through the obstacle instead of reversing back and avoiding it. This is a persistent problem and really deteriorates the experience I certain situations.

Keep up the good work.

[GottyPlays 10]

Why not? Any human player can do that, why not AI?

Why it's OK for a human player to "tele-wrap" 180 degrees in 0.1 seconds prone but not for AI?

I am actually surprised that i even have to tell you why.

I don't know who you play with, but i never saw anybody do that kind of stuff...the last one that i saw do that was an aimbot on counter strike...

On another thread one month ago there was people complaining that when the player is prone can do super turns, now you guys encourage it?

i can't understand this forum, one day they want everything super duper realistic, then they want schizophrenic AI for who the hell knows what reason...

/OT

Yesterday i tried the DUWS mission on altis, it was a lot of fun, but after sending some troops (two kamish filled with people) in high command mode i noticed that they would suddently stop after travelling something like 3-4 km, after a couple of minutes i went investigating, and they started moving again suddently after i reached 1 km (roughly) of distance from them.

is this a bug or my troops got simply stuck? anybody noticed this?

Edited August 29, 2013 by GottyPlays
Damn i have to change this crappy keyboard

[bad benson 1733]

i don't know if it was the mission i played but AI helicopters seem pretty hesitent to actively search for infantry. once we annoyed them with some AA rockets they fired some shots but it would be great if the gunners would really scan the area for enemies and would hunt them down. in arma 2 you had to be really afraid of attack helis sometimes. something seems wrong with the "cost/threat" levels.