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The AI behavior is getting much better. However I still get irritated by friendly AI beyond believe. Two issues I have with friendly AI.

First issue is that they do not follow the leader's footsteps when running AND no threats around. They lag behind and I have to wait for them every once in a while. They move faster when given the move command, but following me is the one that is slow.

Second issue is when they are in auto danger. A lot of the time I need them to move quickly to a certain position like a dash and not muck around from cover to cover. Imagine that I know a mortar strike is inbound and the AI is still running slowly from cover to cover. Also more often than not, auto danger is taking too long to get back to normal. We really need an all clear command to give it to them. Its ridiculous having to wait for them for minutes at times, while you know it's all clear now. Not to mention sometimes they get stuck in danger mode forever. It's a random bug, cannot reproduce it, but made me restart missions before.

Good related thread.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149252-New-quot-move-quot-command-needed-AI-do-not-move-well-when-in-quot-danger-quot-mode

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I still witnessed in latest Dev version my gunner wasn't able to hit an enemy running (in approx. 90 degrees) at 200-300m from the vehicle's MG.

The bullets always passing behind the running enemy

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AI drivers need to learn how to reverse when they get stuck. Vehicles often gets stuck on rocks, and the apc's get caught in infinite wheel spin when they can't clear a hill because it's too steep. Apc's need more power on hills too also.

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First issue is that they do not follow the leader's footsteps when running AND no threats around. They lag behind and I have to wait for them every once in a while. They move faster when given the move command, but following me is the one that is slow.

They'll follow you well and in formation if they are in "aware" mode. The usual "vee" formation is quite wide, and sometimes they have to climb higher or go around obstacles more than you. If you want them to follow you in a compact (and more dangerous) pack, tell them to form a "diamond".

Second issue is when they are in auto danger. A lot of the time I need them to move quickly to a certain position like a dash and not muck around from cover to cover. Imagine that I know a mortar strike is inbound and the AI is still running slowly from cover to cover. Also more often than not, auto danger is taking too long to get back to normal. We really need an all clear command to give it to them. Its ridiculous having to wait for them for minutes at times, while you know it's all clear now. Not to mention sometimes they get stuck in danger mode forever. It's a random bug, cannot reproduce it, but made me restart missions before.

They will run even under heavy fire if you tell them to "hold fire", maybe "disengage", and make sure they are "aware" mode, and then give "move" waypoint.

If the danger is over, but they are still crouching and running from cover to cover, just order them to "disengage"(usually not needed) and be "aware", or "relax" if you are not in a hurry.

---------- Post added at 08:16 ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 ----------

AI drivers need to learn how to reverse when they get stuck. Vehicles often gets stuck on rocks, and the apc's get caught in infinite wheel spin when they can't clear a hill because it's too steep. Apc's need more power on hills too also.

Stratis not suitable for land vehicle warfare at all. It is all steep hills and valleys and rocks and bad roads. So obviously vehicles are in trouble there.

Altis is for them.

But you are right, they shouldn't get stuck on rocks and other obstacles. It makes me wonder if the AI drivers notice at all that they are stuck, with that infinite wheel spin and trying desperately go forwards.

May be some physics related problem.

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They'll follow you well and in formation if they are in "aware" mode. The usual "vee" formation is quite wide, and sometimes they have to climb higher or go around obstacles more than you. If you want them to follow you in a compact (and more dangerous) pack, tell them to form a "diamond".

Try a line. They don't follow leader's footsteps, they sidestep when the leader changes the direction a bit.

The line should be like a snake, everyone steps exactly where the leader steps.

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I understand, thank you guys. But isn't it a bit confusing trying to issue multiple commands to make unit move quickly when in danger?

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Try a line. They don't follow leader's footsteps, they sidestep when the leader changes the direction a bit.

The line should be like a snake, everyone steps exactly where the leader steps.

You mean "column"?

They will follow leader's footsteps Only when safe and formation "column". Then it's like a snake.

When they are "aware", and squad leader changes direction, they'll sidestep and cut, to stay in formation. If squad leader turns 90 degrees, guy behind him moves most to the direction leader is going, and the last man moves least. So the column is like turning stick, rotating around the last man before they are all heading to the right direction, keeping their distances. "Safe" "column" keeps their distances by following the leaders footsteps, which is not healthy in situations where enemy may be around and they have to be ready to return fire.

"Unsafe" column doesn't work well if leader changes direction all the time though. It's not suitable formation for combat anyway.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

I understand, thank you guys. But isn't it a bit confusing trying to issue multiple commands to make unit move quickly when in danger?

Well, there is logic in that. Differend combinations give differend results. And giving commands is rather quick, just "select all" button, and couple number keys after that. Just "§" (or whatever it "select all" is in your keyboard), then 3+2 (hold fire), (§+7+3)(aware), (§+3+6)(disengage), §+1+1(back in formation) (or give them move order). Helps a lot if you memorize the number keys of the common orders. Of course, if there was a "forget everything and run like hell back" -key, things would be a bit simpler. But I don't think it will happen.

Edited by Azzur33

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The AI are moving around better than before, that's good. However, they are still lacking some basic skills, one of those being a reaction to the sound of localised gunfire i.e. that does not impact on them.

Now if they would do what they do in modded Arma 2, it would be better, i.e. they react to localised gunfire sound, whether or not it impacts on them, if they hear it, they don't stand around, instead they find cover, then decide what to do next.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S23VcGPd7f0

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You mean "column"?

They will follow leader's footsteps Only when safe and formation "column". Then it's like a snake.

When they are "aware", and squad leader changes direction, they'll sidestep and cut, to stay in formation. If squad leader turns 90 degrees, guy behind him moves most to the direction leader is going, and the last man moves least. So the column is like turning stick, rotating around the last man before they are all heading to the right direction, keeping their distances. "Safe" "column" keeps their distances by following the leaders footsteps, which is not healthy in situations where enemy may be around and they have to be ready to return fire.

"Unsafe" column doesn't work well if leader changes direction all the time though. It's not suitable formation for combat anyway.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

Well, there is logic in that. Differend combinations give differend results. And giving commands is rather quick, just "select all" button, and couple number keys after that. Just "§" (or whatever it "select all" is in your keyboard), then 3+2 (hold fire), (§+7+3)(aware), (§+3+6)(disengage), §+1+1(back in formation) (or give them move order). Helps a lot if you memorize the number keys of the common orders. Of course, if there was a "forget everything and run like hell back" -key, things would be a bit simpler. But I don't think it will happen.

Yeah, I meant column. But either way, my point still stands. The people in the squad should follow leader's footsteps aware mode as well. It shouldn't be like a "stick" when the squad leader turns.

The whole purpose of the column formation is to minimize exposure to the enemy. If the first guy in the column hasn't bee spotted/fired upon, then it's likely that rest of the guys won't be noticed if they follow the footsteps 100%. But if the formation moves like a rigid stick, all that is thrown away. This behaviour shouldn't be depended upon whether the waypoint was set as "safe" or "aware".

Also the AI squad leader should immediately order a line, or some other wide formation, upon enemy contant if the squad is currently using the column formation. At least in non urban areas. I don't think it does so currently?

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The AI are moving around better than before, that's good. However, they are still lacking some basic skills, one of those being a reaction to the sound of localised gunfire i.e. that does not impact on them.

Now if they would do what they do in modded Arma 2, it would be better, i.e. they react to localised gunfire sound, whether or not it impacts on them, if they hear it, they don't stand around, instead they find cover, then decide what to do next.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S23VcGPd7f0

I feel your pain. I just made a script that does that with Ollem and TPW's help. I should be able to release it soon. But please BIS render all my work useless and add it to the game :)

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Yeah, I meant column. But either way, my point still stands. The people in the squad should follow leader's footsteps aware mode as well. It shouldn't be like a "stick" when the squad leader turns.

The whole purpose of the column formation is to minimize exposure to the enemy. If the first guy in the column hasn't bee spotted/fired upon, then it's likely that rest of the guys won't be noticed if they follow the footsteps 100%. But if the formation moves like a rigid stick, all that is thrown away. This behaviour shouldn't be depended upon whether the waypoint was set as "safe" or "aware".

Also the AI squad leader should immediately order a line, or some other wide formation, upon enemy contant if the squad is currently using the column formation. At least in non urban areas. I don't think it does so currently?

I forgot something. They move always "like a snake" when they are "safe", no matter what the formation is.

When they encounter the enemy, or are set to be "aware", they'll get to predetermined formation immediately and automatically.

One thing that could be made better, is the infantry movement speed when safe and following the human leader.

They tend to walk, not jog, even if the distance to the jogging leader is growing.

But if you want to be aware, move faster and and them to follow (almost all the time) behind you and your footsteps, use "file" formation. It is a very compact column, so they don't have to cut so much.

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I forgot something. They move always "like a snake" when they are "safe", no matter what the formation is.

When they encounter the enemy, or are set to be "aware", they'll get to predetermined formation immediately and automatically.

They always did that, when in safe mode, they go to column formation.

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I've been testing and checking again.

I changed the squad/team leaders to riflemen, same skill level and rank. They couldn't see me, even if I was a bit more visible. They tried, scanned around, didn't see me.

I tried with one squad leader, and shot near him or wounded him, and watched his weapon moving. He was searching quite a large area, if I was lucky he couldn't see me before he stopped scanning. Sometimes it took him only a couple of seconds, sometimes a lot more time. The narrow FOV seems to affect AI too.

Interesting to know. May I ask what terrain detail you are using (I'm using high).

I also done some more testing using this special scenario and found out the following...

1. Tried the same scenario (A3B_AI_Terminators.zip) using the spotter with ghille suit and it made no real change, AI are still able to home in and pinpoint me within a few seconds. As said before laying still in a guille suit in a concealed position (tall grass, bushes etc.) should be very very hard to detect even at ranges <10 m and IMO close to impossible within just a couple of seconds at 100+ m even if you know exactly where to look.

2. It seems like it matters how much damage the AI get!? If I fire 2-3 shots in rapid speed besides him in the wall, they react pretty confused and start looking around after a few seconds and do not detect you that fast, it took them much longer time. Same thing happens if I fire 1 shot in the AI and damage I'm slightly and the other 2 shots in the wall. This AI beaviour gives me an impression of a more normal human reaction but still with extremely good eyesight ;)

However, if I kill the AI or he receives high damage with 2-3 shots they home in and pinpoint me within a couple of seconds. I'm no real programmer but it's like the hit detection algorithm function something like this (much simplified of course)...

 If damage > 0.8 or killed then
   I instantly know shooters position and share it with the rest of the group
   via direct brain to brain interface.
 else
   what happend, I'm confused...start look around and search for the shooter
 endif

Something doesn't seems right here. Why can the AI group pinpoint me almost instantly when I kill the AI with 3 rapid shots but not when I fire them beside in the wall? To me it doesn't make any sense....

Yeah the movement reveals you quite easily, I don't know how that works from AI point of view, does for example freelooking around make you more visible to AI.

Don't know if your head movement counts for the AI detection routines, guess only the devs can answer that one.

Well .. that must be really hard to simulate.

The movement reveals you. The slight colour difference in camo may reveal you. Your shape may reveal you. Or you can miss the signs completely. If AI can see some part of you, should there be a probability percentage for recognition, until you reveal yourself by moving. And then there is other variables like weather, time of day and so on. I don't know how much these are already coded in the AI.

Agree that this must be hard to correctly simulate but fact still stands, just because you have LOS to something IRL you do not nessecary spot/detect it. Especially when we are talking about camouflagued objects.

I tried playing with placement radius and probability of presence, random stealth waypoints, AI having only 3 bullets, and setunitpos "down" in differend places to get some exciting "someone shot you from a random location staying low" -scenarios. They could be spotted quite easily with a scope in few seconds, but they obviously weren't hiding as well or staying as still as a human player can. So multiplayer testing could be interesting.

LOL maybe I just suckz since I sometimes find it hard to detect unknown sources of enemy fire especially if the are behind me.

I also took a series of screenshots from the enemy AI's perspective to show that grass/clutter needs to give you better concealment especially wearing a ghille suit. IIRC it was improved in a previous dev-build a couple of weeks ago (can't find it in the changelog?) but IMO it's not enough.

I will try to share the screenshots here later tonight.

Edit: Forgott to mention that all above tests was done using dev-build 0.77.0.109136

/KC

Edited by KeyCat

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They always did that, when in safe mode, they go to column formation.

Yeah and that was what I forgot.

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~snip

/KC

If I recall correctly there was some guy on the forums who claimed many people play with low terrain details because it is easier to see the enemy with.

...

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If I recall correctly there was some guy on the forums who claimed many people play with low terrain details because it is easier to see the enemy with.

Yes, I read that to but I think that was when playing PvP. Anyway, AI's ability to detect you should be the same for all terrain settings I was just curious what Azzur used when looking in the spec cam.

/KC

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Interesting to know. May I ask what terrain detail you are using (I'm using high).

2. It seems like it matters how much damage the AI get!? If I fire 2-3 shots in rapid speed besides him in the wall, they react pretty confused and start looking around after a few seconds and do not detect you that fast, it took them much longer time. Same thing happens if I fire 1 shot in the AI and damage I'm slightly and the other 2 shots in the wall. This AI beaviour gives me an impression of a more normal human reaction but still with extremely good eyesight ;)

Something doesn't seems right here. Why can the AI group pinpoint me when I kill the AI with 3 rapid shots but not when I fire them beside in the wall? To me it doesn't make any sense....

I hate being wrong.

I dropped the squad leader with one bullet to the head and guess what. His pals immediately turned with impressive speed and started shooting me to pieces.

With only wounding him or shooting near him, not at all same kind of reaction. Just confusion, hiding, or looking for the shooter.

There is something broken for sure.

So, 2 big issues for AI.

1) Why do they know exactly where I am if I drop their leader with a headshot?

2) Why there is no reaction when bullets fly past them, even very near ones. In 100 meters, the shot/crack must be heard by them.

PS. I'm using Very High -terrain setting.

Edited by Azzur33

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If you play as green and set them to be friends with everybody and shoot a blue guy, reds start shooting at you. Is this intended or a bug?

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Yes, because if you kill most of one friendly or only one with high rank (SL) you become enemy, it's similar that if you kill your team mates.

Edited by EricFr

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@Azzur33 and KeyCat: that issue has been pointed out several times already. while overall reaction to sound etc is much better now, this issue remains and still totally renders all other changes useless (not quite but...) because eventually you will end up killing the enemy since that's what this game is about.

watch my repro video including shot counter (excuse the typo :o).

you will see at the end that the second i kill a squad member the rest will turn like robots with aimbots. it's really frustrating and i hope it will be fixed since, again, it will render all other systems, that are in place to make detection more realistic, useless.

please make a ticket if there isn't already one. i was going to, but i have problems logging into the tracker since the hack attack.

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I dropped the squad leader with one bullet to the head and guess what. His pals immediately turned with impressive speed and started shooting me to pieces.

With only wounding him or shooting near him, not at all same kind of reaction. Just confusion, hiding, or looking for the shooter.

I wonder how you got that, I've tested a couple of days ago on regular/skill 0.5 and the turn speed was still slow like hell.

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I wonder how you got that, I've tested a couple of days ago on regular/skill 0.5 and the turn speed was still slow like hell.

@Azzur33 and @afp: what average framerate you had during those tests, what was the distance between you and enemy squad? Thanks for info

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I had this problem last night me and my brother were playing LAN on very good rigs so FPS wasn't a problem, but as soon as one soldier died.. by me or my brother shooting.

the whole town was on top of me and I was in a bush with a silenced weapon.

I was playing on vet difficulty with the enemy slider set to 0.75 and friendly 0.85

hope this is fixed soon.

AI will always have some idea where you are

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@Azzur33 and @afp: what average framerate you had during those tests, what was the distance between you and enemy squad? Thanks for info

Framerate was about 50-55, distance about 100 meters. Veteran defficulty, Very high terrain, enemy AI 0.85.

I tested last night Again, having interesting results.

I tried the KeyCats repro-mission, modified it by placing player next to the cone behind the bush, so my position was always the same.

Shooting squad leader dead with one shot:

About 50/50 "Shoot our leader, and we instant robot turn-kill you!" and "What's going on, who shot our leader?!" reaction.

So, NOT 100% clear result.

Then reduced the group to 4, squad- and team leaders, autorifleman and rifleman - making sure No one was facing me, or even sideways. All were facing away.

And headshots again:

Not a single "Shoot our leader, and we instant robot turn-kill you!" result. They were like they didn't even know where the shot came from.

100% clear.

The explanation is that when all 8 AI group members are on wedge formation, even if squad leader and units on left are facing away, units 4, 6, 8 were clearly sideways. They move their heads, watching around. They do Not detect me when I'm hiding and are not looking for me. But they Are ABLE to see my muzzle flash/puff of smoke if they are looking at my direction the moment I pull the trigger. If not, I'm rather safe, until the team leader finds me with the scope (if I'm stupid enough to let him...).

As it should be.

If they see the muzzle flash, their reaction is quick and lethal.

When I'm behind the bush, they do Not see me even if they are facing me, so obviously I'm well hidden.

If I position myself in front of the bush, standing, they'll shoot at me right away.

I can crawl from behind the bush closer, hidden in the grass, they do not detect me.

Working as it should be. I misjudged the AI.

Then the issue with "hearing", tested with 3 AI with scopes, facing away:

Shooting in air:

100 meters, they hear the shot, reaction time few seconds, finding target easily.

200 meters, they hear the shot, same reaction time, but finding the target takes longer.

300 meters, they don't hear the shot.

300 meters, shooting near them, hitting the ground around them and in front of them, no reaction.

After wounding or killing one of them, very quick reaction to go prone, and looking for the shooter few seconds later.

I would think that a human soldier would react somehow if he doesn't hear the initial shot, but notices near bullet impacts or hears them buzzing or cracking around him. So this breaks the immersion a bit.

---------- Post added at 14:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:54 ----------

I had this problem last night me and my brother were playing LAN on very good rigs so FPS wasn't a problem, but as soon as one soldier died.. by me or my brother shooting.

the whole town was on top of me and I was in a bush with a silenced weapon.

I was playing on vet difficulty with the enemy slider set to 0.75 and friendly 0.85

hope this is fixed soon.

AI will always have some idea where you are

Well, they can hear silenced weapon up to about 100(+) meters. And a bush won't hide you from all angles. With a silenced weapon, you'd have to shoot multiple times to kill, so you can be detected easily.

The only way to survive is to crawl to that bush, make a kill and retreat while hiding. If you stay there, you are dead moments later.

Edited by Azzur33

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Well, they can hear silenced weapon up to about 100(+) meters. And a bush won't hide you from all angles. With a silenced weapon, you'd have to shoot multiple times to kill, so you can be detected easily.

The only way to survive is to crawl to that bush, make a kill and retreat while hiding. If you stay there, you are dead moments later.

yeah me and my brother did that and it worked up until we got flanked and owned badly.

still could be more dynamic I think

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