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If BIS will solve it the way I suggest in the "expected behavior" in my ticket it will mostly eliminate that issue Bad Benson. At least it will appear a lot more humanlike even if AI instant intra-squad info sharing will remain the same.

I think what the engine really lacks is AI using areas not just targets. They seem to always use very precise targets/objects in their calculations when in fact it would've been great if 'areas' concept was familiar to them too.

Like when you order them to watch something they will watch that exact object when some kind of "area" should be created for them so they won't just get a heavy tunnel-vision like they do now.

Same goes for suppression. Would've been great if when using that useless 2-9 command it created an invisible area object for AI that would be of 5m radius or something all of which they would fire at instead of firing in the same spot.

I hope it's clear enough what I suggest since "area" vs "exact target" objects can solve a lot of superhuman issues with AI. Hard to describe it a bit.

Yes, creating more of an area target in which the AI must then 'hone in' on would go a long ways towards a more humanlike response. Kinda reminds me of SLX's workaround in which multiple invisible targets were created around the 'real target' which the Ai would fire at giving it more of an area effect.

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The only problem I see with our solutions is that AI might become static and easy to outmaneuver. While this would still be better than the current problems it could be avoided by letting the AI decide if they should defend or attack, this could be done by comparing numbers.

I also like metalcraze´s idea, that would actually be much easier and would still give very good results.

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these are the crucial cases though. the problem here is not that the AI share info. it's the same as with several other features. the idea behind it is great but the execution isn't giving the intended result.

just transfer squad info sharing to an all human team to see how it should be. players share enemy info with bearings and general directions. often times squad members will have the info but still have a hard time actually spotting the enemy. AI on the other hand seems to share 100% exact positions which then are directly used for targeting. this is not realistic and doesn't feel human or tactical at all. it just feels like one brain in several bodies. or like the squad mates are instances of the leader or the one that spotted the enemy first.

the problem is the absence of grey areas. it's either they don't know where you are or they know exactly where you are. as metalcraze said. there needs to be a random error factor. like a zone that is created around the shooter after he shot, to resemble the info gathered from the sound of the shot. then everyone in the squad should get a random spot in that zone to look at and search the zone from there by straving the aim from one side border to another. each shot should make that zone smaller and then after a certain amount (randomized) they then could get the exact position.

it's just a simple concept but i think it's clear what i mean...i hope;)

Well, I might have to disagree. Actually, not disagree - what you say is correct, it's just that I think the AI in ArmA is doing what it's supposed to be doing. It's almost certainly doing what it's designed to do. The AI always still has to see you first, so there's that to consider, and if an AI reports your position to the group members then they will also see you and although admittedly they will have your position in any case, having an AI look "near" to your position will surely have the same result - they will see you. Also, what you say about no gray areas is incorrect, the knowsAbout value is a number between 1 and 4 (i.e. 2.345), and if an AI sees you disappearing over a hill it will make assumptions on your position based on that last sighting.

Yes it's a group brain, but it's also AI, and so it already suffers a disadvantage because it cannot ever be as good or as ingenious as a human player. It HAS to have some "advantage" in order to provide a player challenge. I mean, in an average play session, what is the player-to-AI kill ratio? In a level playing field it would be close to 1:1, but it's not. The AI will never be up to human standards, it can only have appropriate responses to generic situations, with the occasional "perk" such as the one we're discussing now.

The "crucial cases" you refer to are the occasional AI behaviors that reveal some unreal group mind behavior yes? These cases don't bother me because I can kind of understand that sometimes, strange things happen and you just have to accept the strange things. If one of your group members gets stuck on a rock, well he's twisted or broken an ankle and the rest move on. The medic isn't fixing someone up as soon as you make the order? Well he's spooked by some movement somewhere or he's having finger-trouble with his medical equipment. If you've ever been on any kind of expedition you already know all the sorts of nonsenses that can happen :)

And I guess it's the same in this case: the cases where the AI "knows" where you are quickly are countered by your ability to know about this and make subsequent plans to escape if need be. An AI can't do that :)

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can AI do more casual things on dismissed waypoint? like talking to eachother and when someone is killed not in their group and not in sight. they should not be alert if they are oblivious to them dying in the first place

lol

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can AI do more casual things on dismissed waypoint? like talking to eachother and when someone is killed not in their group and not in sight. they should not be alert if they are oblivious to them dying in the first place

lol

Nice idea, it always looks weird if AI is standing around in a perfect wedge formation. Maybe you could introduce a feature that puts an AI squad into a "relaxed" formation where they stand around in a casual way after the squad hasn´t been moving for some time or has fulfilled it´s waypoints.

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Could we restrict this thread to feedback on changes and suggestions for balancing mechanics that are already on the To Do list in the OP?

The bug tracker can absorb an unlimited amount of feature requests, but it is a difficult place to hold a conversation on what is needed to re-balance the AI.

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I now have a big smile on my face seeing these AI improvements. IMHO I would do with a lower amount of units/vehicles etc and with all the time that that frees up, pumping it into AI improvements. However, I have, and always will trust BIS to give us the best they can ... that's why I'm a supporter!

Hopefully you are not suggesting putting Artists (who make models and textures) programming AI. :D

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Nice idea, it always looks weird if AI is standing around in a perfect wedge formation. Maybe you could introduce a feature that puts an AI squad into a "relaxed" formation where they stand around in a casual way after the squad hasn´t been moving for some time or has fulfilled it´s waypoints.

Is this what you're looking for? http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9536

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Actually he was talking about a formation, not animations.

this one is better though it covers it all including formation as it would be classed as casual

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Why not create a CEP around the Known target that gets smaller and smaller the longer the AI focuses on the target and it could also be affected by precision skill? This could simulate focusing of muscle control and breathing control. What I would really like to see is some form of suppressing fire for targets that are behind cover.

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-snip-

well just because you are interpreting stuff into code that is failing (twisting ankle stuff) to make yourself feel better about it doesn't magically make it work as intended. :p

besides.

you misunderstood what i was referring to. the posts before mine were talking about a certain situation, which is crucial because that's when you will experience the AI most indepth and when life and death is decided. me and others were talking about how the AI is aquiring the player's position after he was firing at them from a more or less hidden postition and how they will just suddenly know where to shoot once one single squad member was killed.

you are taking my statement as way too general and out of context. just read it in this context again.

and believe me i know what knowsabout is. i already had some sobering realisations about what it actually does long long before arma 3. the system is far from optimal and while it can be a number between 1 and 4 it often times is just used like an on off switch and the nuances the number suggests aren't actual existing as something that can be experienced and would show different behaviors. exactly what i meant by a concept being in place but not being used right/to its fullest potential. and the value still can't be lowered after it was raised which shows another big problem with the system.

in addition the highest value doesn't even seem to resemble 100% knowledge since they can already be shooting at you with 1.5. here's another video of the exact problem. comparing single units and squads.

watch the knowsabout value. what you can gather from it is that above 1 is "they know where you are and see you". and in the second part watch how they all (despite the turn speed limit they have in close quarters) instantly and very fast totally 100% snap on your exact position and start shooting.

here's the debug code i used to monitor my shots and the knowsabout of the single unit/the groupleader.

goes in your init line

shots = 0; 
this  addeventhandler ["fired", {shots = shots +1;}]; 
this allowdammage false; 
0 = this spawn {while {true} do {hintsilent format ["knowsabout: %1 \nshoots fired: %2", a1 knowsAbout player, shots]; sleep 0.1}};

just try it yourself with the enemy named a1 alone and then after that give him some squad mates and shoot one of them instead of unaimed near shots. you can interpret that however you want but i don't see how that would be an intended compensation for AI being inferior to humans. it simply creates an illogical situation that is caused by some piece of old code somewhere in there that needs to be removed (and used for close quarters since it makes them turn fast). it has been making stealth kills impossible since ofp. it's a simple on off switch with no relation to actual aquired info or any base in logic. unless you are willing to think up a story for that too to make it seem logical. would be more of a sci fi, inbuilt hit radar kinda thing;)

that's why the following statement is not correct for this certain situation, which is the norm since this game is mostly you against squads. all we want is for it to be correct :)

The AI always still has to see you first,
Edited by Bad Benson

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KnowsAbout seems like a not-very-useful abstraction of the code that no one much understands, it seems.

Whatever that little number says, detection is ultimately still an LoS check. No AI ever 'sees' you without it. When shooting at AI in practice, muzzle blast and nearby impacts (but apparently not sonic cracks, tracers or visible impacts, unfortunately) gives them audible information about your position. This is extremely inaccurate in most cases, usually an area target, but if they do turn in your direction and perform an LoS check, you are pretty much always spotted. They see muzzle flashes like the terminator, and in previous games grass was ignored.

When you shoot someone's squad leader, they hear the shot, turn towards you and then see you. Right? What's so sinister? I saw you shoot two group members, with targets looking in all sorts of (wrong) directions.

There seem to just be a collection of small issues related to that, like AI instantly knowing when their comrades are killed, even out of sight (the player's AI strangely enough doesn't get this knowledge). And while you shoot the dirt near them they may be unable to identify you as hostile (Unkown Man), hitting them with your first bullet removes that possibility of doubt (as it should be?).

Then there are a few mysterious quirks with satchel charges (probably) being treated like your own muzzle blasts, and grenade launchers being too goddamn loud, but there's still sight and sound at the base of it. That's the data the AI uses. At least as I understand it from testing.

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I don't know if this is a direct result of changes made to AI grenade throwing but if you order an AI to target and fire on a popup target he uses grenades.

this dotarget targe1t; this dofire target1

Even after grenades have been used he won't use the riffle.

If you have the AI attack an empty ATV he opens fire with his Riffle.

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Devs: So much of my hope is going into this one project, if I can call it that. The fact that AI have been brought to the fore, is well, really much appreciated..

I have everything imaginable crossed, I mean, everything..;)

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Devs: So much of my hope is going into this one project, if I can call it that. The fact that AI have been brought to the fore, is well, really much appreciated..

I have everything imaginable crossed, I mean, everything..;)

+1, reading those posts... god yes!

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Devs: So much of my hope is going into this one project, if I can call it that. The fact that AI have been brought to the fore, is well, really much appreciated..

I have everything imaginable crossed, I mean, everything..;)

What are you waiting for, get onto dev branch and try to break this AI! :lol:

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Just a slight reminder, knowsAbout is a value ranging from 0 to 4 (don't ask me why) where knowsAbout 4 means that AI knows what kind of enemy is player (in this case) and is pretty sure with his guessed position. This position doesn't necessary need to be the the correct one, we have some development means to visualise the guessed position and it may differ from the real even whit knowsAbout being 4 :icon_twisted: You know the feeling that someone must have been behind that bush, but he is waiting for you to surprise you at the next one.

And one more reminder - there are more traces of the fire than some of you may probably imagine. I have actually fired the GM-6 Lynx and idea of hiding something like that in nearby bush seems a bit crazed to me :icon_twisted:

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Maybe a lower knowsAbout, like under 1, should affect the accuracy? If the enemy couldn't see you long enough to identify your type, could mean that you are still hidden in a bush, somewhere around? Would be closer to an "area fire".

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And one more reminder - there are more traces of the fire than some of you may probably imagine. I have actually fired the GM-6 Lynx and idea of hiding something like that in nearby bush seems a bit crazed to me :icon_twisted:

Uh... seeing that at, let's say 450 meters of distance in a sunny day what makes hard to see distinguishing features at far away, for someone who isn't focusing exactly in the exact zone is almost impossible, I would say.

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That's not the problem.

Not sure about the solution to crouch either. It seems to be similar to Robalo's one in ASR AI which is not how it should be.

AI should kneel or go prone to fire but move around normally without enforced crouch run (since it tires the AI). They should crouch run only when under actual fire (which they can detect) or when enemy is close, not always in danger mode.

That's the reason I've made a ticket years ago - adding "LOW" stance to danger.FSM is easy but adding the smarter behavior I'm describing above is impossible with scripts, only through engine code modification. Although I'm not saying BIS did exactly that - perhaps the fix is indeed smarter and I'll do more testing but so far it doesn't look too optimal.

The reasoning behind this is because as human players we prefer to use crouch or prone stance to fire because it lowers the recoil. But when moving the standing stance is preferred unless in the immediate danger / under fire. Why? Because moving while standing is faster and less tiring. It also doesn't matter from 100m and above since you will be the target of almost the same size. However human players prefer crouch run when in the immediate danger or going into a cqb fight because lower profile certainly can make a difference even at the expense of bigger fatigue at a close range.

Use of crouching will be decreased,

was intentionally little to much to get some feedback.

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Just a slight reminder, knowsAbout is a value ranging from 0 to 4 (don't ask me why) where knowsAbout 4 means that AI knows what kind of enemy is player (in this case) and is pretty sure with his guessed position. This position doesn't necessary need to be the the correct one, we have some development means to visualise the guessed position and it may differ from the real even whit knowsAbout being 4 :icon_twisted: You know the feeling that someone must have been behind that bush, but he is waiting for you to surprise you at the next one.

And one more reminder - there are more traces of the fire than some of you may probably imagine. I have actually fired the GM-6 Lynx and idea of hiding something like that in nearby bush seems a bit crazed to me :icon_twisted:

Pettka gets to do all the fun stuff :p

Maybe one of you guys would be interested to make a Devblog, or maybe even a short Stream, on how the AI works. That would surely explain some things!

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And one more reminder - there are more traces of the fire than some of you may probably imagine. I have actually fired the GM-6 Lynx and idea of hiding something like that in nearby bush seems a bit crazed to me :icon_twisted:

Well yeah but the issue here is that AIs face away for a few consecutive shots and then when the "revealing" (or something) shot happens they turn around and instantly know the enemy position.

AI reaction is exactly the same with MX rifles.

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