AI Discussion (dev branch)

[das attorney 858]

Agreed.  This makes no sense - there is already the option to set the completion radius to 0.  SO why enforce it in some behaviours and not others.  At the moment there is a disconnect between what the mission designer thinks they are doing and what the AI actually are programmed to do.

 

It would probably help out AI driving waypoints, where we want them in safe or aware, but don't need them to spend 5 minutes reversing and turning to get them to the exact point of the WP, when they could follow the user-set completion radius and complete the waypoint much easier.

[mickeymen 324]

On 20.10.2017 at 1:37 PM, oukej said:

Completion radius isn't checked all the time in all behaviors. AI checks completion often in combat or stealth. In aware or safe the AI will always go to the precise WP position before completing it.

 

I did not understand why @oukej, said that it only works in danger/stealth, he does not know how this works in fact? 

Anyone can make a simple test with completion radius for AI and you will see, that the AI mode does not affect on this

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

[snipped]

 

[Tankbuster 1746]

Sad to say, but I couldn't agree more. I'm spending less and less time making content for this game, primarily because the AI driving is in a worse state than it's been at any time during my 10-year career here.

[lex__1 422]

I have a two-fold impression of this problem. Sometimes AI drivers demonstrate a fast and masterful driving class in narrow urban lanes. Sometimes AI drivers demonstrate
the lack of driving skills at an open, empty crossroads.
Drivers of some types of cars rarely get stuck, some often.
There is not enough, there is no way to create a chain of waypoints for AI, directly in the game, as one can do for UAV.

 

Many problems AI landing / landing in stationary equipment and moving on the platform.

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T126984

AI can:
 - walk slowly along the platform
 - get stuck on the platform in transit
 - get stuck on the platform before landing in ....
 - get stuck on the platform after landing from ....

 

AI on the ground/water transport will not move if the path lies on:
 - land - water
 - land - water - land
But it works well when the path lies on:
 - water-land

[das attorney 858]

11 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

Ive still yet to hear any comment for what may be wrong with the AI driving.

 

what causes an AI vehicle to do this seizure-like movements? Are there bugs in the driving system? scripting method landmines we should be aware of and avoid?

 

its damaging to the community of playable content creators to deal with these things long term with radio silence from the dev team. i --along with most other coop designers--am on the way out (just polishing up an old project for publish before leaving), in no small part due to having to deal with issues such as shown in the video for years. better communication and potential resolution isnt for me, its for those people making coop/cti/milsim scenarios who are still interested in gritting their teeth and working around these AI issues.

 

If AI driving is fraught with bugs and isnt expected to be resolved next patch, it -- as a feature -- should be disabled entirely, as its an embarrassing stain on an otherwise great game.

 

 

I've noticed that bug with vehicles.  It's when they get to a WP and have to double back on themselves for the next WP.  For example, they travel west to a WP and then complete it but the next one is east so they do that weird thing where they reverse while swerving L and R (ending up with no net turning).

 

It's more prevalent on 6 wheelers (like in your video) ie: marid, zamak and tempest.

 

Also, I try to reproduce bug with one vehicle in the editor, but they're unaffected.  I think it's mainly when the FPS is a bit lower and there's a few other units/vehicles on the map.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

we have AI heli pilots firing their forward-firing guns in random directions.

 

note the tracer direction

 

[das attorney 858]

I haven't looked at the choppers but the 6.5 minigun on the speedboat goes all over the place.

[haleks 8212]

On 24/10/2017 at 12:19 AM, mickeymen said:

 

I did not understand why @oukej, said that it only works in danger/stealth, he does not know how this works in fact? 

Anyone can make a simple test with completion radius for AI and you will see, that the AI mode does not affect on this

 

Eerr, I just tested this on stable, and I can confirm that WP completion radius only works in Stealth and Combat (wich is stupid).

Did you actually run a test yourself before posting that?

[ProfTournesol 956]

57 minutes ago, haleks said:

 

Eerr, I just tested this on stable, and I can confirm that WP completion radius only works in Stealth and Combat (wich is stupid).

 

Yup, i can confirm.

[oukej 2910]

20 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

we have AI heli pilots firing their forward-firing guns in random directions.

 

note the tracer direction

Thanks a lot! Should be fixed soon™

[mickeymen 324]

On 25.10.2017 at 5:54 PM, haleks said:

 

Eerr, I just tested this on stable, and I can confirm that WP completion radius only works in Stealth and Combat (wich is stupid).

Did you actually run a test yourself before posting that?

 

I checked it dozens of times. Moreover, I provided two repro-missions. You can open it, change the mode of waypoints to to Stealth/Danger and you will see that this has no any effect.  What strikes me most is the fact that the developers themselves do not understand how they game is works/

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

[snipped]

[h - 169]

On 10/24/2017 at 1:19 AM, mickeymen said:

 

I did not understand why @oukej, said that it only works in danger/stealth, he does not know how this works in fact? 

Anyone can make a simple test with completion radius for AI and you will see, that the AI mode does not affect on this

Testing your missions proved that what @oukej said is true, as in "checks often" in combat/stealth even though "often" is a bit vague:
The AI group will realize it is inside the completion radius at some point when in combat/stealth, seems that "often" means there's some interval at which the check is performed which seems to be quite long though.

Ran the "Ifrit WP" mission of yours (from the ticket) several times and the AI would always go to the Ifrit before reaching the pickup WP, but not immediately when reaches the completion radius. It would take place at about 50m before the "ifrit waypoint".
Changed the WP completion to 300m, same result.
Moved the group outside the 300m completion radius and the WP would complete at about 100m before the group reached it..
Seems the game doesn't like the group starting inside the WP completion radius??

Then ran the "Join test mission" and the WP would get completed when the leader (group in combat or stealth) was about 40m away from it even though the completion radius is 1000m...
So, moved the group outside the completion radius and the WP would sill get activated at about 40m away from it.. Huh??

So according to these results the completion radius is pretty pointless and broken/not intended to work on Join WP??

Edited October 27, 2017 by h -
wrong quote

[mickeymen 324]

15 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

the AI systems were created many years ago, by former devs.

 

especially in the context of a complex system in a complex game by a relatively small dev team, I think its understandable that they wouldnt know (or remember) how some things worked.

yes it's like the truth

 

11 hours ago, h - said:

Testing your missions proved that what @oukej said is true, as in "checks often" in combat/stealth even though "often" is a bit vague:
The AI group will realize it is inside the completion radius at some point when in combat/stealth, seems that "often" means there's some interval at which the check is performed which seems to be quite long though.

Ran the "Ifrit WP" mission of yours (from the ticket) several times and the AI would always go to the Ifrit before reaching the pickup WP, but not immediately when reaches the completion radius. It would take place at about 50m before the "ifrit waypoint".
Changed the WP completion to 300m, same result.
Moved the group outside the 300m completion radius and the WP would complete at about 100m before the group reached it..
Seems the game doesn't like the group starting inside the WP completion radius??

Then ran the "Join test mission" and the WP would get completed when the leader (group in combat or stealth) was about 40m away from it even though the completion radius is 1000m...
So, moved the group outside the completion radius and the WP would sill get activated at about 40m away from it.. Huh??

So according to these results the completion radius is pretty pointless and broken/not intended to work on Join WP??

 

I do not want to argue or quarrel with anyone, I just try to make the Arma better. Today the end of the completion radius setting inside waypoint for AI-units simply does not works.

Let's talk. 

 

We have only two options:
1 - then how to say @oukej (AI, will consider completion radius settings in your waypoint only with danger / stealth mode)
2 - that's how I say (AI  in general ignored completion radius settings in your waypoint)

 

The problem is that both options prove that today the option Completition radius in the game Arma3 is not looks adequate!

 

Even assuming that I am wrong, and @oukej is right, then such a solution ( completion ONLY at danger/stealth mode) is strange and illogical. According to @oukej, under the basic mode (Avare), AI will not use it ever! Note that the player will always complete
his waypoint regardless of the mode, while the AI will hang from the mode! lol! It's absurd! Why does the player have different conditions? I think the completion of the waypoint should work adequately and stably for every unit in the game. With this do not argue.

In my tests, I clearly proved that at least this is unstable. I checked it dozens of times, Maybe instead of 10 tests, I needed to do 154 tests to finally see that the AI can be able finish its waypoint? This is not normal ... If the developers make completion radius stable, then it will be better for each user of Arma

 

 

[oukej 2910]

Caused some misunderstanding here, I'm sorry about it. We do perceive it as a bug too (and tracked it's existence back to 2007). We were dealing with it a year ago and we decided against fixing it due to risks involved in the required changes. If anything changes we'll definitely let you know.

[das attorney 858]

1 hour ago, oukej said:

we decided against fixing it due to risks involved in the required changes.

 

 

Dev branch is all about risks!  xD 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

[snipped]

 

[das attorney 858]

6 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

no point attempting potentially risky changes unless there's adequate dev resources and QA to catch the inevitable unintended consequences. there isnt QA for AI and there isnt adequate dev resources, so I agree it shouldnt be touched.

 

Basically unless BI is willing to commit sufficient resources to improving their AI feature, it makes sense to not touch something that could lead to more serious problems.

 

We saw this mistake with the AI driving in June 2016. Insufficient developer resources + complex system =  <driving video>

 

 

Hmm, I see it differently.  That's what I thought dev branch was for (to test risky things and catch bugs) so we are the QA.  Change it - keep it on dev branch for ages.  If it fucks up then revert it.  If not then publish in a future stable build.  We can agree to disagree though  :)

[Tankbuster 1746]

29 minutes ago, das attorney said:

 

Hmm, I see it differently.  That's what I thought dev branch was for (to test risky things and catch bugs) so we are the QA.  Change it - keep it on dev branch for ages.  If it fucks up then revert it.  If not then publish in a future stable build.  We can agree to disagree though  :)

I think you're right. When assessing a risk, one has to consider potential benefits. This 'bug' has a nasty effect on many aspects of the game and it is serious enough to sustain a risk or two.

 

Risky or otherwise, on the 22nd of last month, dev branch got more accurate RPM gauges for the xH9 family. I doubt I'm alone in failing to celebrate such a momentous fix.

 

I probably am not the only one to remember the much-lauded fix for setMimic when there was much self-congratulation and mutual backslapping at BI while the entire community went "We've never used this command!".

 

I think what I'm saying is.."Fix what is broken, please. Not the other stuff..just what is broken"

[Theo1143 18]

Can't agree more I do walk in a lot of trouble with me mission just because of this.

The AI works fine when you set it up but then when you play it it will only work 70% of the time.

Then again you get problems as being noted above that hes just standing there for ever.

This doesn't has to be a big problem but if it is an important part of your mission it will be a big problem.

 

1 hour ago, Tankbuster said:

I think you're right. When assessing a risk, one has to consider potential benefits. This 'bug' has a nasty effect on many aspects of the game and it is serious enough to sustain a risk or two.

 

Exactly I don't think we could ever accept it that an AI chopper shoots backwards with hes forward guns.

Same thing about the AI turning 360 degree then making an head-shot from 3 clicks away...

It is still in the game and it is the reason why i'm not even playing at all anymore.

These things have always been in the game aldo I didn't know about the helis the AI problem always has.

But the wierd part is that it seemed to be less of a problem 2 / 3 years ago, I don't understand why that is.

Back in the day I could atleast let them do some basic stuff, now they even got problems with that.

And then again bug fixing this is imposeble since there is nothing to fix, except using unitplay for units to... (rip fps)

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

[snipped]

 

[Theo1143 18]

37 minutes ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

...

 

 I know right...

Exactly me point even basic things don't work anymore.

As stupid example take the hostpital at altis it is a building who has been there since they released altis.

You should think since there is pathing on top of the roof they should be able to walk there, well you WRONG.

If you put a heli on top of the roof then order them to go in while he is standing beside the heli.

He will walk all the way down walk to the garage then teleports into the heli and sits in the pilot seat like nothing happened.

Now say this is a mission where u see a guy running down stairs 10 sec later u hear the engine going on from the heli on the roof.

Oh yea that really helps by the realism (sarcasm is real on this one)

[First Sea Lord Kiwi 54]

my biggest gripe is the fact that formations are null when the AI are in "relaxed" mode. In order for formations such as wedges and such to be used the AI are always pointing their weapons up. I have never patrolled in real life for hours on end with my weapon pointed up. please do something about this. 

[h - 169]

Quite, that feature makes no sense at all..