AI Discussion (dev branch)

[cosmic10r 2331]

It was quick draw, i can explain everything to someone who want to do it.

 

 

Arrows on a piece of paper do not give you an implementation. But never mind.

 

As Alwarren says, and I believe multiple people have also tried to express to you is that, ideas on paper rarely translate as well into the game as one may think

 

I can't tell you the number of simple ideas I have had that seem simple at the outset, but upon implementation create a host of other problems or issues if it is even possible at all...

and yes it seems easy when you think about it, but to get the game engine and the ai to understand what you are trying to tell it becomes a whole other problem

 

In FOA, our first building block was a cover mechanic... we wanted that and Mikey spent weeks writing and rewriting code because every time we had a test build it would say, take cover well, but then the ai would lay down in the road and not move for extended periods.. so you fix that and then they don't take cover as quickly as you need them  to, so when they do take cover properly again... they get bogged down there and don't follow waypoints breaking missions... then they do great in open ground but are terrible at cqb

 

We actually had to have 3 seperate test missions to make sure it was happening properly because different scenarios created different behaviour.. an open ground test, a cqb test and another to make sure each edit was working as intended in each scenario and it rarely did.

 

It becomes very frustrating at times because you basically have to pick what you can live with in terms of 

-what you originally wanted 

-the problems it creates

-the unwanted behaviour it creates

-the things you will have to put up with to have certain features

 

[froggyluv 2136]

 "Acting is reacting" ~Constantin Stanislavski

 

 Any plans to get the AI to have more believable reactions such as surprise etc? There is no reaction when a grenade is thrown right in front of them

 

 

[inlesco 233]

As Alwarren says, and I believe multiple people have also tried to express to you is that, ideas on paper rarely translate as well into the game as one may think

 

I can't tell you the number of simple ideas I have had that seem simple at the outset, but upon implementation create a host of other problems or issues if it is even possible at all...

and yes it seems easy when you think about it, but to get the game engine and the ai to understand what you are trying to tell it becomes a whole other problem

 

In FOA, our first building block was a cover mechanic... we wanted that and Mikey spent weeks writing and rewriting code because every time we had a test build it would say, take cover well, but then the ai would lay down in the road and not move for extended periods.. so you fix that and then they don't take cover as quickly as you need them  to, so when they do take cover properly again... they get bogged down there and don't follow waypoints breaking missions... then they do great in open ground but are terrible at cqb

 

We actually had to have 3 seperate test missions to make sure it was happening properly because different scenarios created different behaviour.. an open ground test, a cqb test and another to make sure each edit was working as intended in each scenario and it rarely did.

 

It becomes very frustrating at times because you basically have to pick what you can live with in terms of 

-what you originally wanted 

-the problems it creates

-the unwanted behaviour it creates

-the things you will have to put up with to have certain features

 

... video ...

 

Good post! I suppose, ideally, AI should never leave hard cover (rocks, in this case), even if they feel very confident they won't be hit by the incoming suppressive fire.

 

However, as it seems from the video, AI loves to deviate from solid cover, risking their lives for no reason.

 

The basic idea is to have different classes of soldiers react differently depending on time of day, weather conditions, the weapons they have, their specialty, etc. There's SOOO many factors to consider it's mind-boggling.

[Vasily.B 529]

 "Acting is reacting" ~Constantin Stanislavski

 

 Any plans to get the AI to have more believable reactions such as surprise etc? There is no reaction when a grenade is thrown right in front of them

 

 

I remember this - before changes. Ai was instantly know your position after you throwed grenade from cover. People wanted to change.

[froggyluv 2136]

 Yeah but you gotta admit that looks ridiculous -they can clearly see a projectile in front of them and if the smoke pouring out doesnt register warning bells..

 

 At the least should auto switch to Aware/Combat but ideally should induce sprint for cover while yelling "Grenata!!!". A little of this goes a long way bewteen 'bot waiting to be killed' and a more believable "self preserving robot with robot family to think about"

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

 Yeah but you gotta admit that looks ridiculous -they can clearly see a projectile in front of them and if the smoke pouring out doesnt register warning bells..

 

 At the least should auto switch to Aware/Combat but ideally should induce sprint for cover while yelling "Grenata!!!". A little of this goes a long way bewteen 'bot waiting to be killed' and a more believable "self preserving robot with robot family to think about"

 

AI and reactions are still a weak point in arma.

Shoot an enemy vehicle at night, they turn off headlights instantly as the projectile hits.

This is neither authentic or believable.

Adding reaction times between actions would improve authenticity tenfold.

 

Wonder when we're going to see that implemented, if at all.

 

Cheers

[Vasily.B 529]

And does Explosive charges still atract enemy attention? I remember they exacly was knowing your position one you planted explosives, just like they recognize action "put XXX" as shotfire.

[old_painless 182]

That's right - made any kind of ambush with explosive charges impossible. Hope that has been fixed, haven't tried for a long time

 

-OP

[froggyluv 2136]

AI and reactions are still a weak point in arma.

Shoot an enemy vehicle at night, they turn off headlights instantly as the projectile hits.

This is neither authentic or believable.

Adding reaction times between actions would improve authenticity tenfold.

 

Wonder when we're going to see that implemented, if at all.

 

Cheers

 

 Man I literally pray for this. Give us some surprise banter and animations and it would go a really long way -hell id pay extra for it. Scares me that the roadmap till 2018 mentions nothing of this and if DLC's are running that long, no way an Arma4 can pop into the picture. Im thinking they're done with the current animation system in terms of anything new combat wise and are only adding the cutscene stuff which is a shame as its useful literally only there in that one aspect.

[bravo409 13]

They probably think someone will mod that and, be added that way. That is pretty horrible that they wouldn't put that in the game,specially a military sim lol.

[bravo409 13]

Did a test with Chris B smart AI mix for the grenade and, smoke reaction and guess what guys they reacted to seeing grenade and the smoke. First I did the grenade 3 times to see if it was a fluck of them reacting ...When I threw it in front of them they scattered like ants each time even hitting the deck which was interesting to see. Then I throw the the smoke 3 times and one of the Ai jumped and the rest hit the deck. So that said it can be done they will react to the grenade and smoke but, also I am using mods to make it work it is not vanilla AI, Also with the mix I am running ACE 3 but thats it. 

[Vasily.B 529]

They probably think someone will mod that and, be added that way. That is pretty horrible that they wouldn't put that in the game,specially a military sim lol.

I hate this reaction too, and i remeber they was calling arma 2 milsim, but in third part, something have changed but dont recall when ecacly. Type Arma 3 in google and you will see :

"Experience true combat gameplay in a massive military sandbox"

[road runner 4344]

And does Explosive charges still atract enemy attention? I remember they exacly was knowing your position one you planted explosives, just like they recognize action "put XXX" as shotfire.

In what way? I'm able to get within 3-4 M's at night, using NVG's and able to plant Claymores in front of the Boko Harem dudes from Project OPFOR without them seeing me, or finding me after I detonate.

I was testing out how to plant charges and even managed to deploy several "bouncing betty's" in door ways after the rest of them tried to find me, leading them into an ambush of mines etc.

 

I'm using A.I.S.S.S Feat of Arms as the only AI addon.

[Vasily.B 529]

In what way? I'm able to get within 3-4 M's at night, using NVG's and able to plant Claymores in front of the Boko Harem dudes from Project OPFOR without them seeing me, or finding me after I detonate.

I was testing out how to plant charges and even managed to deploy several "bouncing betty's" in door ways after the rest of them tried to find me, leading them into an ambush of mines etc.

 

I'm using A.I.S.S.S Feat of Arms as the only AI addon.

Project opfor, A.I.S.S change a lot. I mean thei Ai with night vision, on same skill as your unit. I dont know if its present:

 

And does Explosive charges still atract enemy attention? I remember they exacly was knowing your position one you planted explosives, just like they recognize action "put XXX" as shotfire.

But it was pretty serious issue. I cant test it before 16.00 today.

[road runner 4344]

I doubt Project OPFOR change anything, as none of the BH guys have NVG, if you're using vanilla, don't forget some of their NVG's have TI capability.

I will disable the A.I.S.S addon, and see how close I can get to the bad guys. ;)

[Vasily.B 529]

I doubt Project OPFOR change anything, as none of the BH guys have NVG, if you're using vanilla, don't forget some of their NVG's have TI capability.

I will disable the A.I.S.S addon, and see how close I can get to the bad guys. ;)

But its not the point. I mean not distance detection, but if they detect you when you are placing satchel charge. For example spawn behind Ai at 200M and put satchel charges.

[Variable 322]

It seems like an age old bug that has been fixed in Arma 2 got unfixed. Detonating explosive reveal the player's position to the AI. I'm still not certain though, can someone confirm?

[froggyluv 2136]

 Not true. Just tested by placing Satchel near enemy group, detonating after I ran 100m away and hid in bushes. Their knowsabout when from 0 to 1.5 which basically just meant they were aware of an enemy -but did not know where i was.

[ceeeb 147]

The AI explosives reveal issue occurred if AI had detected the player, then forgotten him before the explosives are set off. 

Here is my bug report: Enemy AI knows your exact position when you detonate explosives or satchel charges

 

I'll retest in current dev branch.. Issue still occurs in current dev build 1.67.139357

 

 

More recently, I have found AI can fire on targets they have never seen through nearby total concealment: AI can suppress and fire precisely at target without any line of sight in some circumstances.

While firing on unseen targets can be plausible when the target is near the concealing object, and the firing unit has line of sight to the concealing object (the firing AI just needs to aim at the concealing object), it is implausible when the concealing object is much closer to the firing AI than the target (as they have no aimpoint to fire upon, they are shooting blind).

I suggest a partial line of sight test be required, so the AI can only fire through concealment that is some percentage of the distance between the firing unit and the target (so the concealment forms a reasonably sized, specific aimpoint/target for the AI)

[Vasily.B 529]

 Not true. Just tested by placing Satchel near enemy group, detonating after I ran 100m away and hid in bushes. Their knowsabout when from 0 to 1.5 which basically just meant they were aware of an enemy -but did not know where i was.

Great, thanks for confirming the fix :)

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

I will disable the A.I.S.S addon, and see how close I can get to the bad guys. ;)

In vanilla it's actually very close if you go prone.

It's so close now that I seriously hope the Tactical DLC will bring some form of melee attack, like a knife takedown or a convenient whip to the back of the head with a pistol or rifle stock.

 

Cheers

[sammael 366]

[road runner 4344]

Great, thanks for confirming the fix :)

http://imgur.com/a/GSseb

I actually got to within 3M and pressed the wrong keybind and stood up in front of them, this lot never spotted me, it was the ones in an opening to the left of me as I was sky lined under the slight moonlight.

I'm actually having a LOT of fun seeing exactly how close I can get..

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

http://imgur.com/a/GSseb

I actually got to within 3M and pressed the wrong keybind and stood up in front of them, this lot never spotted me, it was the ones in an opening to the left of me as I was sky lined under the slight moonlight.

I'm actually having a LOT of fun seeing exactly how close I can get..

Can get pretty hilarious as long as they don't have NVGs.

Was sneaking up to a building with guards on either side,

threw a grenade to the right guards, waited 4 seconds and opened fire on the guards on the left side.

It was over pretty quick.

 

Cheers

[road runner 4344]

Can get pretty hilarious as long as they don't have NVGs.

Was sneaking up to a building with guards on either side,

threw a grenade to the right guards, waited 4 seconds and opened fire on the guards on the left side.

It was over pretty quick.

 

Cheers

It's funny how people complain about the poor AI in A3, and yet in A2OA, you had to Parachute In, and infiltrate into an enemy compound, place satchel charges on the tanks, then sneak out, detonate, and extract, but as long as you stayed prone, the enemy couldn't see you inside the compound, even if he was standing almost on top of you!!

AI now isn't too bad, it all depends on what you're up against, CSAT are highly trained and well organised, and the AI reflects this, throw in the African Pirates from Project OPFOR and they're as dumb and stupid as a box of spark plugs.. Horses for courses, also depends on what you have the skill level at too.