AI Discussion (dev branch)

[-Coulum- 35]

Very much agree with what instagoat has said. Mods unfortunately can't fix the problems with ai, they just cover them up. For some people that is enough, for me personally I would prefer ai that does what its supposed to even if its not necessarily smart, than be confused and random and occasionally do something smart. And in the end the major problems still exist despite mods.

Also there is a large amount of placebo. For example ASR in A2 did nothing to make ai take cover, besides sending them into random buildings occasionally. Yet there are many people who claim ASR makes the ai take cover, flank, be more aggressive and a whole host of manoeuvres that it doesn't actually do. Don't get me wrong I loved ASR for arma 2 and couldn't play without it. But I actually believe it was one of Robalo's goals not to mess around with the ai decision making too much - which is the reason I used it in the first place.

And even if mods did truly fix the ai it must be understood that a script is much different than implementing something into the engine. It seems that BIS is even more so concerned about things being implemented into the core engine rather than slapping on features via scripting.

OFP ai were horrible. they really saw through trees and had the pinpoint accuracy as well. Only difference was they had a nerfed spotting ability and like mentioned it was much easier to spot them due to the map. This made things feel more fair. Right now alot of people complain about ai that one shots them, for example, when they (the player) pop out from behind a rock. What they don't realize is that the ai has been aiming for that rock for the past 10 seconds since you hid behind it. Shifting there aim by a metre isn't that hard. They shouldn't have much trouble hitting you, because if the tables were turned you would do the same. Ai accuracy is to good sometimes. But other times it is actually too poor. The ultimate solution is to make it depend on the situation as I have blabbered time and time again.

Anyhow I am sure BIS knows that the ai needs work (COOP is a huge part of the game). Its just going to take a really long time. In addition, I am pretty sure that the ai guys (capable of making behavioural changes) are also the devs working netcode and what not (which is also lacking - fps problems). But look at how much better arma 2 got from release to current - and that was working off a less stable platform. I am not saying that it will be perfect (never will be) but I am sure that the ai will get better, its just a matter of time.

[old_painless 182]

RE: Presets. What is the problem? Nobody even understands how the sliders in the menu or the numbers in the .cfg relate to each other. I doubt the devs do (otherwise we likely would've seen information about this on the biki, but in 13 years of the RV engine, zilch.) either, apart from the dedicated people working on the AI specifically. Presets in fact are the way to go from a game design point of view because they set a standard for what mission designers AND players can expect from the AI. On all levels, the difference between AI of a low skill and of a high skill should be broader, but what IS still important is transparency.

Word.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Very much agree with what instagoat has said. Mods unfortunately can't fix the problems with ai, they just cover them up. For some people that is enough, for me personally I would prefer ai that does what its supposed to even if its not necessarily smart, than be confused and random and occasionally do something smart. And in the end the major problems still exist despite mods.

Also there is a large amount of placebo. For example ASR in A2 did nothing to make ai take cover, besides sending them into random buildings occasionally. Yet there are many people who claim ASR makes the ai take cover, flank, be more aggressive and a whole host of manoeuvres that it doesn't actually do. Don't get me wrong I loved ASR for arma 2 and couldn't play without it. But I actually believe it was one of Robalo's goals not to mess around with the ai decision making too much - which is the reason I used it in the first place.

And even if mods did truly fix the ai it must be understood that a script is much different than implementing something into the engine. It seems that BIS is even more so concerned about things being implemented into the core engine rather than slapping on features via scripting.

OFP ai were horrible. they really saw through trees and had the pinpoint accuracy as well. Only difference was they had a nerfed spotting ability and like mentioned it was much easier to spot them due to the map. This made things feel more fair. Right now alot of people complain about ai that one shots them, for example, when they (the player) pop out from behind a rock. What they don't realize is that the ai has been aiming for that rock for the past 10 seconds since you hid behind it. Shifting there aim by a metre isn't that hard. They shouldn't have much trouble hitting you, because if the tables were turned you would do the same. Ai accuracy is to good sometimes. But other times it is actually too poor. The ultimate solution is to make it depend on the situation as I have blabbered time and time again.

Anyhow I am sure BIS knows that the ai needs work (COOP is a huge part of the game). Its just going to take a really long time. In addition, I am pretty sure that the ai guys (capable of making behavioural changes) are also the devs working netcode and what not (which is also lacking - fps problems). But look at how much better arma 2 got from release to current - and that was working off a less stable platform. I am not saying that it will be perfect (never will be) but I am sure that the ai will get better, its just a matter of time.

I think ArmA3 AI is just a slightly improved version of ArmA2 AI, based on the same core.

If BIS was supposed to work deep on AI, they would have already done it in ArmA3.

Both games share the same blazing limitations. To name just a few: bad pathfinding, lack of suppression effects, unability to flee or withdraw, weak situational awareness and clunky CQB.

Don't get me wrong, i love BIS games, but that's the truth.

I doubt they're going to fiddle much with AI internals.

AI mechanics are sort of a pandora's box and looks to me that Suma was one of the very few having the keys.

My hope is BIS will make some efforts in putting more tools in the hand of modders.

Yes, those who make the rough, clunky and amateurish things you blame ;)

[dnk 13]

So you test AI only in multiplayer COOP scenarios? Have you ever heavily played with an AI squad? Leading the squad etc? That is important too. The heat of a multiplayer game can drastically bias your AI behaviour observations.

I imagine it's not hard to remove certain features (like having squads try to flank or take cover) when under the player's control. This should not be a serious impediment for implementation.

Can you please post a link where I can download the ASR_AI3? I could not find it. Thank you.

I can't find it either now.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think ArmA3 AI is just a slightly improved version of ArmA2 AI, based on the same core.

If BIS was supposed to work deep on AI, they would have already done it in ArmA3.

Both games share the same blazing limitations. To name just a few: bad pathfinding, lack of suppression effects, unability to flee or withdraw, weak situational awareness and clunky CQB.

Don't get me wrong, i love BIS games, but that's the truth.

I doubt they're going to fiddle much with AI internals.

AI mechanics are sort of a pandora's box and looks to me that Suma was one of the very few having the keys.

My hope is BIS will make some efforts in putting more tools in the hand of modders.

Yes, those who make the rough, clunky and amateurish things you blame

Its not that they're amateur and many aren't even clunky. Its just that many of them seem to have to fight the vanilla ai in order to work. That is, for the scripted mods. Ones that directly alter the .fsm such as what gamma dust is working on, not so much. Ones that really only change configs such as ASR also not so much. I do agree the more tools for modders the better, but I would prefer bi just to straight out fix the ai. Maybe not likely.

Although somethings will never change (path finding and situational awareness), I think that the devs will eventually get around to improving certain features (ie. cover usage). It will take a while but I believe that sooner or later they are going to have to. AI is a huge part of the game and for this series to last it is essential that the ai grow out of its major issues. Slowly, but eventually.

Edited November 29, 2013 by -Coulum-

[TheMightyMooseKing 10]

I've just installed the Dev-Branch again and I've noticed some really weird issues with the AI, I'm going to just go ahead and list everything I've noticed so far, I'm playing on regular difficulty with both friendly and enemy AIs at a level 0.70 by the way.

-Ridiculously weird accuracy levels, 9/10 times the AIs score perfect headshots as long as they're hitting the enemy, if otherwise they will often not cause any damage at all despite hitting.

-Absolutely ridiculous reflexes, even if you're in their crosshairs for only a splitsecond they will start firing and very often end up hitting you, this is especially annoying at medium-long distances when for instance moving between cover.

-I've also noticed this on the regular branch but it just got worse due to the two points stated above, the AI seems to have no turn limitations at all and thus it often occurs to me that I enter a building or get into close contact with the enemy just to see atleast one AI soldier completely turning around and perfectly shooting my character in the head despite me not even being in their field of view.

Edited November 28, 2013 by TheMightyMooseKing

[MavericK96 0]

Can you please post a link where I can download the ASR_AI3? I could not find it. Thank you.

Only thing I can find is this, which I guess has a link to it indirectly: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?166804-ASR-AI-for-A3

[dnk 13]

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/asr-ai/files

Found it!

Sort by date released and make sure you get the A3 one (most are A2).

[.kju 3244]

I don't see where you guys have confidence that BI will (be able to) tackle deep routed AI issues or revamps core aspects of it.

Even if they would, it would be easily 6-12 months or more likely a wait for A4 to see these happening.

What Suma has done over the course of the OA beta patches in cooperation with the CIT community was to fix

very specific issues of AI behavior and a bit of tweaking.

A lot more was hoped for, yet even that brought a good improvement for AI recognized by many.

In A3 they seem to focus more on the tweaking part so far, with some specific AI issues looked into by hladas and klamacz,

as well as their recent plans to revamp the AI difficulty settings and provide some documentation on these and other means to adjust em.

My only points are:

1) As for tweaking they should look into what community modders have done, as these are a significant improvement over the current state.

2) Do not remove difficulty customization and modding of AI - to the contrary more of those two would be needed.

(presets are fine - no discussion needed; as long as customization remains available)

3) Look into the key issues first that are still fairly easy to solve.

Sure if you still believe major revamp is going to happen any time soon, so be it. I don't think its the way to go forward and a likely course.

Edited November 29, 2013 by .kju [PvPscene]

[l etranger 5]

Tweaked: AI engagement ranges.

Any info / test on that one ? does AI don't stay passive at far distance ?

[klamacz 448]

Any info / test on that one ? does AI don't stay passive at far distance ?

Tweaked: AI engagement ranges. AIs should prefer full-auto mode with MX SW

edited in changelog, thanks for pointing it out

And I will just leave it here. For you people :)

createUnit function now spawns unit with default 0.5 skill (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12669)

[-Coulum- 35]

]My only points are:

1) As for tweaking they should look into what community modders have done, as these are a significant improvement over the current state.

2) Do not remove difficulty customization and modding of AI - to the contrary more of those two would be needed.

(presets are fine - no discussion needed; as long as customization remains available)

3) Look into the key issues first that are still fairly easy to solve.

Absolutely agree. It'll be a long process.

[SaOk 112]

Here is video for the earlier AI issue I mentioned - when setpos:ing player and his team to new location, some of the team-mates may stop following all orders and head back to the orginal location. Seem to happen especially if the team-mates were in contact with enemy when teleported (thanks TriTard for the video):

Once when it happened tried domove, dofollow, commandmove orders for the troublemakers, via debug console, without any effect.

[Make Love Not War 10]

Here is video for the earlier AI issue I mentioned - when setpos:ing player and his team to new location, some of the team-mates may stop following all orders and head back to the orginal location... Once when it happened tried domove, dofollow, commandmove orders for the troublemakers, via debug console, without any effect.

As a possible workaround, have you tried to regain control of the AI by taking them out and then putting them back into the player's group? Just some brainstorming. Either way, this bug needs to be fixed.

Ed: Also, some combination of disableAI commands might work. If you're completely desperate, as a final measure you could delete the original units and substitute in a set of new, proxy units. Syncing animations between old and new units shouldn't be too much of an issue as you're teleporting anyway. Might run into a problem with setting the appropriate faces for the new, proxy AI without using cfgIdentities, however, as last I played with it the face and setFace command appeared to be FUBAR'ed (ticket).

Edited November 30, 2013 by Make Love Not War

[oukej 2910]

Here is video for the earlier AI issue I mentioned - when setpos:ing player and his team to new location, some of the team-mates may stop following all orders and head back to the orginal location. Seem to happen especially if the team-mates were in contact with enemy when teleported (thanks TriTard for the video):

setPos'ing AI generally isn't recommended, because the AI gets confused and needs to - sort of - "reinitialize" itself. This more of a limitation than a bug :/ (I may bring more information on monday.)

[SaOk 112]

Okay, thanks for replies. :) I will try the group trick and if not working completely copy-paste the old gear for new clone soldiers.

[Make Love Not War 10]

Okay, thanks for replies. :) I will try the group trick and if not working completely copy-paste the old gear for new clone soldiers.

Cool. Let us know if any of those suggestions work for you.

Ed: It just dawned on me that I wasn't clear earlier with my disableAI comment. To be more precise, I was ssggesting using disableAI to turn off some or all of the AI components followed immediately or shortly afterwards by the concurrent enableAI command as a possible method of resetting them. I'd try that before messing with cloning units.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Make Love Not War

[SaOk 112]

Sure, disableAI "FSM" would be maybe one to start with, but I also have cloning script already running for cutscene actors. Faces remain wrong, but its a smaller issue. Still hope to see that face copy-paste fixed (in the ticket), it would be handy.

[msy 22]

Yeah it is the cheating AI, Maybe this issue can never be fixed...

[maturin 12]

Yeah it is the cheating AI, Maybe this issue can never be fixed...

That's not cheating AI, that's a glitched door.

Use your head.

[msy 22]

how can you use your head to prove it is the door issue?

if you are smarter plz feedback the door issue or dont reply.

[oukej 2910]

Yeah it is the cheating AI, Maybe this issue can never be fixed...

Thanks for the vid. It was quite easy to reproduce. (one has to run immediately after killing the opfor guy) We'll look into that.

Just a note: the AI has probably heard you (shooting (even suppressed shot would have been audible outside) & running) - that's a correct behavior. Wrong is that their estimate is too precise and they even fire thru the door only if player happens to be behind them.

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

Can someone on the devbranch please check the mission file from the feedback tracker in my signatures link?

I wonder if this is still the case since there has been some collision light tweaking going on at the update from 28th.

Also wondering if I'm the only one with that issue that AI pilot's won't turn on vehicle lights other than the collision lights, no matter the behavior.

Cheers

[msy 22]

Thanks for the vid. It was quite easy to reproduce. (one has to run immediately after killing the opfor guy) We'll look into that.

Just a note: the AI has probably heard you (shooting (even suppressed shot would have been audible outside) & running) - that's a correct behavior. Wrong is that their estimate is too precise and they even fire thru the door only if player happens to be behind them.

Then I make another 2 videos. Hope you can work out what is really wrong.

part 2

part 3 @maturin

Yes there is something wrong with the door, but things won't be so easy as you think. You cant explain why if I make headshot the AI to die then I can delay the AI outside the door to detect me unless I make much more noise, just based on the door.

[maturin 12]

Because AI occasionally share information with other groups (as it should be, although delays in intelligence-sharing need to be implemented across the board). If you take a few seconds to kill him, he has a chance to sound the alarm.

When AI shares information with other groups, it's silent.