AI Discussion (dev branch)

[bad benson 1733]

Shooting the AI DOES NOT GIVE THEM UNFAIR INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR POSITION. Full stop. It does allow them to turn and see you, using their sense of hearing and sight, with a speed and accuracy that is unfair and unbalanced. But your description of this issue is 100% misleading and false.

i consider this settled since any sane reader will see, especially in the last video, how wrong you are.

i never made any statements about specific causes. what i said was that the AI will "know" where you are, turn to you and shoot you. if the term "know" unsettles (lol?) you here and doesn't fit with the stuff you made up in your head while using your "special" repro mission, then read it like that: the AI is in a state that will make the engine turn them towards the player in an instant and shoot him AS IF they know exactly where he is.

i don't really care what broken system is at work under the hood that creates values that are 100% irrelevant to the issue. the squad WILL turn and shoot you always if you shoot a squad member with two shots not too shortly after each other. Full stop. any repro mission made by whom ever will show that. no matter what you will say.

the KEY here is the difference between the player not shooting an AI and him shooting one. and it is CLEARLY visable in the last video i posted. you are simply ignoring it and now after i pointed it out you talk about some fancy debug you use.

honestly. who cares?

my video shows what i described very, very clearly. there is no additional debug needed to show the issue because it can easily be reproduced several times.

why you can't accept what is shown to you is beyond me. it's only more clear that you intend is not the AI problem. your semantic games about effect and cause don't change anything. it only shows that after facts are shown to you, you are resorting to rethorical stuff that doesn't have anything to do with what i'm talking about.

and to give you a challenge for your next post. explain to me why they instantly turn towards the player and shoot him in the last video while they are facing the opposite direction. how can you come here acting all smart ass talking about how AI is only using sight and hearing, after watching my video?

the fact that you won't acknowledge a known and accepted issue even after having been shown it several times, is frankly mind blowing :butbut:

EDIT: just saw your edit. made me lol.

Edit: Your video shows this and only this: That wounding the AI makes them spot you faster than shooting the dirt at their feet.

which is exactly the only thing it is supposed to show :rolleyes:

This is a problem, but you misinterpret its case and baselessly accuse BI of having deep-rooted problems in their AI.

wow. ok i understand your motivation now...way to go fanboy. we are trying to make the game better in this thread and you are not helping. take a break mate...

And finally, if you're going to bash me for using the precise, formal language most appropriate to bugtesting software, I am more than justified in dismissing you as an uneducated nincompoop because you refuse to engage in debate and capitalize your sentences.

i was mocking how you are implying that i don't use empirical methods. funny. especially after making two videos just to show you something you yourself weren't able to notice with your "fine" and "precise" methods. seriously funny dude ;)

so we can agree that you have some issues i have nothing to do with and that my video shows exactly what i was trying to show with it?

and just because this is so good...

Your video shows this and only this: That wounding the AI makes them spot you faster than shooting the dirt at their feet.

which equals (while "faster" should be "instantly" to put it more "precisely")

my bullets seem to have the info of my position in them which then is injected directly into the brain of the victim.

now. if you have to go on, then tell me how inprecise i described the issue. i don't care at all. as long as you won't keep on spreading the false information that the issue isn't existing, i will be done here. don't make me make another video. PLEASE!

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bad Benson

[MadocComadrin 12]

Shooting the AI DOES NOT GIVE THEM UNFAIR INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR POSITION. Full stop. It does allow them to turn and see you, using their sense of hearing and sight, with a speed and accuracy that is unfair and unbalanced. But your description of this issue is 100% misleading and false.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11865

There was an issue with AI knowing the exact location when one in their group was killed. While it is marked as resolved, the fix may not have fixed enough, so killing an AI may give more information (possibly quicker) then a missed shot or a non-killshot would.

[Azzur33 1]

"explain to me why they instantly turn towards the player and shoot him in the last video while they are facing the opposite direction. how can you come here acting all smart ass talking about how AI is only using sight and hearing, after watching my video"

Some interesting results:

Shooter 50 meters away from a fire team, kills one, they turn rather slowly.

Shooter 100 meters away, squad leader turns immediately, finding you quickly.

Shooter 200 meters away, varying results. With a clean headshot, squad leader doesn't turn. Most kills make leader turn right away, but finding you may take some time.

It is Obvious that killing one group member usually (always, with some exceptions) makes the leader turn at you immediately. He doesn't Know your Exact location, but the approximate location, he still has to find you.

It is also obvious that the delay between going prone and that quick turn, is depending how much damage that wounded guy had.

Wounding lightly=it may take 10 seconds before "the quick turn", killing shot=instant "quick turn".

This may be deliberate behaviour, to make AI react to immediate severe danger.

If your group members are starting to drop like flies around you, you should react at that second, or you are history. Makes sniping a challenge.

If someone is shooting at you, but only manages to wound someone, you are not in same kind of danger, and you have more time to react.

The key thing is that they don't pinpoint your location and kill you immediately.

They still have to search and see you before they start shooting, and it takes a few shots before they actually hit you, and it usually takes a few hits before you die.

So, even with the "quick turn" feature, you'll still have time to run and hide.

Maybe it needs some little tweaking though, to make it feel more "natural".

[sqb-sma 66]

Maybe it needs some little tweaking though, to make it feel more "natural".

The core problem is that even before you shoot your location, according to the AI, is designated by a factor called "knowsabout". Normally this is at 0% if you're out of sight/hearing range. If you shoot, and this goes to 1%, the AI knows your position exactly, however they have to act like they don't. The AI don't take a location and say "the shot came from there", they specifically know it came from you, however they don't know if you're friendly or enemy or any details so they guess it out.

If you kill one of them the knowsabout goes quite high quite fast, they know you're hostile, so they instantly engage.

It's a bad system, in reality the best system would be one where AI can easily switch between targeting people and areas (designated as a sphere hovering in the air or a segment of each AI's visible area) which they considering threatening. Why would this be so good?

1) During aware mode a cover map could still be drawn (provided the CPU is powerful enough, this would make the CPU strain for AI movement just as bad during non-combat as during combat, ouch!) with sources placed in some key areas by level designers, AI could look at these areas of risk as they move. Higher awareness modes (combat, stealth) would attempt to remain invisible from these areas even if there's not a single enemy spawned.

2) A bullet is fired into an ambush. With the first round each AI can guess the shooter's position to within 90 degrees. The cover nodes in that area activate and a rough cover map is drawn, the AI find cover and scan. As more shots are fired (assuming a shooter is well hidden) any scanning AI could isolate a position rapidly as soon as another shot is fired. He can then relay the individual's positon to his team-mates who, if the enemy doesn't hide, will now switch from area threat to individual threat.

3) If in individual threat, the game works exactly like now. An AI can hold the individuals of highest threat in its memory and, if it loses sight of them the enemy becomes an area threat again but the individual still traces a high knowsabout-ish factor, so that if either one takes cover and then moves whilst unseen before popping out, it's not like the searching AI has to examine the entire hillside again, once spotted an enemy is more easily respotted.

4) If an enemy team retreats into hiding or takes cover, MG elements or high firepower (RPG) elements in the team can suppress those positions, or even suppress threat nodes in that small area (threat nodes would usually be placed on building corners or small hidey holes, so if a team takes cover that's where they're most likely to shoot back from) whilst the rest of the team repositions and splits into flanking and suppressing elements.

I think that introducing that new area threat system would make the game a lot better when it comes to AI. And threat nodes... may not work out in reality but I think they *could* work. Especially if buildings are exported with inbuilt threat nodes for windows and corners.

I think the worst thing would be drawing threat/cover maps, this would take a lot of CPU power for multiple threat nodes, and calculating the most "shadowed" (least threatening) area could take too long, making AI unresponsive and clunky if you suddenly hop out in front of one (I know we've got the find cover interrupted task for AI now, but I'm talking about bogging a CPU down so much that it's too slow even for that to work well, it's a real risk).

[bad benson 1733]

The key thing is that they don't pinpoint your location and kill you immediately.

sorry but that just isn't true. watch it again please. yes there are exceptions but that doesn't make this bug/bad feature or what ever you want to call it nonexisting. they infact DO turn instantly and look EXACTLY at the player and shoot at him.

watch especially the left guy in my last video. he instantly robotically turns and istantly shoots (watch his muzzleflash). and he will do that from having his back to me before. there is no looking for me. there are only the two kill shots. there, for both of them, is no muzzleflash to look for, since they both look the wrong way. it's totally automatic aimbot. just...please...watch....the....video!!!

what makes it so hard to believe? you've been on about it with KeyCat for a page and already realised that he was right...

and that brings me back to my original post before all the nonsense.

the problem is not the fast sharing of information after death (far smaller problem). it's the nature of the information. and again. i don't care what last known position the engine generates or what misleading knowsabout value there is currently. if the AI snap their aim at my position instantly and shoot, then they technical "know" where i am. they just do lol. at this point the last known position is not even used anymore. it's like saying "they are still searching for you. it's just their hands shooting at your exact position".

so just removing that whole robo cop auto aim and shoot situation would instantly solve the info sharing problem since the guy you killed from that distance would never know where you are anyways. so there's nothing relevant to share for him at all. there is obviously some "system" in place that overrides everything after the kill shot. it totally ruins all thresholds and randomness. but yea. i have the feeling i'm still not getting through...

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Dwarden 1125]

hmm, why all the heated discussion ... provide repro missions ...

[bad benson 1733]

ok. turns out that metalcraze's mission was not optimal to be used as reference. the sniper has a higher stealth value and his gun mostly kills with one shot ;) additional to that it seems that the houses and walls are making the AI slower and creating a false impression.

this is the mission i made the videos with. it gives you very clear results.

behavior to reproduce: shoot one squad member with 2 shots that have a second between them (enough time to break the threshold bandaid). the squad will auto turn, aim and shoot at you instantly at the exact moment of death.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlnokn <--- repro mission download

- the whole team is facing away

- only 3 guys to make it easier to monitor

- kill one of them with two shots that aren't super close to each other...watch the magic happen

- compare that to shooting very close to them instead of killing a squad member (compare shot count)

- usually it takes at least 4 shots to make them notice you while 2 kill shots will make them go in auto kill mode

- there's a clear difference and it's obvious that they have automated aiming help when the described happens (sorry for underlining but i feel i have to make this clearer than clear)

sometimes they will do a hand gesture after turning to your exact position and before shooting you. that does not mean they are looking for you. it's an animation keeping them from shooting (which is stupid btw :p). other than that it's 100% instantly (which also can be seen in my videos...).

so infact this issue http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11865 has not been resolved!

[gammadust 12]

I'lll be checking that one out benson :)

but let me bring attention to: 0010143: Grouped AI is aware of kills even when they shouldn't notice which i believe is the same issue and Alwarren's ticket isolates it better. I don't know if they're not declared has dupes because the dev team knows that is the case or if it was simply overlooked. Alwarren's ticket is older but non assigned.

[maturin 12]

i never made any statements about specific causes. what i said was that the AI will "know" where you are, turn to you and shoot you.

It turns out you agree with me partially. You aren't even trying to investigate the workings and causation of the AI, and are just making emotional protests about results.

This is what I am telling you: The AI does not know. But they will find out, and find out too quickly.

But the terms that you and others have used to describe this issue are wrong. As written, all the tickets about it are obsolete because they have been fixed. I suspect that they were always fixed.

This is a balance issue about the speed with which an AI unit in the highest state of alarm acquires targets. The act of hitting him with a bullet isn't the root of the issue here.

i don't really care what broken system is at work under the hood that creates values that are 100% irrelevant to the issue. the squad WILL turn and shoot you always if you shoot a squad member with two shots not too shortly after each other. Full stop. any repro mission made by whom ever will show that. no matter what you will say.

That's not my experience. I have wounded AI many times and had them remain unaware of my position. Do you even run the dev branch?

In my mind, it you don't care what goes on under the hood, you cannot partake in this thread in a helpful manner. These tickets you support suggest problems under the hood; they suggest cheating AI. You are unintentionally misleading to the developers.

and to give you a challenge for your next post. explain to me why they instantly turn towards the player and shoot him in the last video while they are facing the opposite direction.

EARS!!! DEAR JESUS FUCKING GOD, HUMAN EARS!

They turn, then they see. This is how it's worked since A2.

the fact that you won't acknowledge a known and accepted issue even after having been shown it several times, is frankly mind blowing :butbut:

You seem not to read my posts. There is an issue, but it has been severely misinterpreted. I don't accept the supposed conventional wisdom of the BI forums.

ok. turns out that metalcraze's mission was not optimal to be used as reference. the sniper has a higher stealth value and his gun mostly kills with one shot additional to that it seems that the houses and walls are making the AI slower and creating a false impression.

You claim that bullet give magic infallible information to the AI, so marginally higher camouflage shouldn't be an issue here. You shoot them in the leg, by the way. Houses and walls do not make the AI slower. That is laughable. The lack of effect of nearby clutter and objects on AI spotting is ACTUALLY what the glitch is here.

- there's a clear difference and it's obvious that they have automated aiming help when the described happenS

The ONLY thing the video and your new repro mission demonstrates is that there is a DIFFERENCE in AI reactions. But if you have been studying the AI since ArmA 2, as I have, you will recognize the supposed glitchy, "automated" reaction as the default AI spotting response. Yes, it is a problem that it is so precise and instantaneous; I have never denied that. But any ticket needs to prompt BI to investigate the inconsistency of responses, not allege a magical quality of bullets providing information. FYI, they have already begun work on alleviating this instantaneous spotting issue.

Furthermore, I think you have become fixated on your interpretation of the issue. For example, take these steps with your repro mission:

1. Wound the leftmost AI with a single shot. Remain prone and unseen.

2. Fire a shot in the air.

3. Observe that familiar instantaneous reaction.

This simple repro completely destroys your whole ticket, because it shows that the second bullet isn't giving the AI any magical, unfair information.

Edit: But wait, I will prove you wrong again. I can get that unfair instant reaction without hurting anyone.

1. Fire a shot in the air, perhaps two.

2. Wait several seconds for the AI to become alarmed. Remain prone and unseen.

3. Fire another shot in the air.

4. They spin and shoot at you.

Have I convinced you now? The ticket as written has been resolved. The glitch is gone. Now we write new tickets.

Edited August 25, 2013 by maturin

[Varanon 892]

I'lll be checking that one out benson :)

but let me bring attention to: 0010143: Grouped AI is aware of kills even when they shouldn't notice which i believe is the same issue and Alwarren's ticket isolates it better. I don't know if they're not declared has dupes because the dev team knows that is the case or if it was simply overlooked. Alwarren's ticket is older but non assigned.

Plus, it has a repro mission attached to it: repro mission download

[maturin 12]

Gammadust and Varanon: That's an open-and-shut case, in my opinion. Everyone go vote on it.

I propose that we start investigating the following issues, and provide various repros for them:

1. The AI does not respond to audible muzzle blasts for a long period of 4-5 seconds, then entering alarm state. (ASR AI fixed this issue entirely.)

2. The AI does not derive as much information from nearby bullet impacts as it does from a shot that wounds a group member. (This is BadBenson's issue. Fixing it will make his problem worse, which is why...)

3. We must tell Dr Hladik that his rebalancing process has not gone nearly far enough. I refer to this changelog item:

Decreased AI hearing ability to pinpoint enemy unit position

Increased the threshold of accuracy when a unit starts guessing an enemy unit's position; i.e., audio inputs take longer to increase AI's precision/certainty

As I see it, AI hearing isn't always good enough. When they do use their ears and turn in the right direction, their excessively sharp eyes work too fast. There is still that old issue where Line of Sight means instant detection, no matter the surrounding environment or thickness of grass.

[KeyCat 131]

When they do use their ears and turn in the right direction, their excessively sharp eyes work too fast. There is still that old issue where Line of Sight means instant detection, no matter the surrounding environment or thickness of grass.

Fixing or improving this issue would most likely eliminate much of the "AI terminator" feeling and along with not being able to suppress AI it's one of my top pet peeves. That being said I have no idea how easy/hard it is to fix/improve and still keep the AI agressive when you are not concealed but doing so would improve gameplay tenfold!

/KC

[bad benson 1733]

sorry maturin but you still don't get it.

That's not my experience. I have wounded AI many times

that's not the point. it's about when you kill the unit. just watch the vids and play the repro and do what i described.

Edit: But wait, I will prove you wrong again. I can get that unfair instant reaction without hurting anyone.

1. Fire a shot in the air, perhaps two.

2. Wait several seconds for the AI to become alarmed. Remain prone and unseen.

3. Fire another shot in the air.

4. They spin and shoot at you.

it's about KILLING the unit and the caused INSTANT reaction. all the cases you describe are not relevant to the specific issue. i've proven it several ways. you admit that there is a difference when killing the unit, which is instant aimbot opposed to delayed response. which is exactly what i'm saying. my point is exactly that any other spotting system with delays and threshholds is negated by this bug. i showed it a vids and a repro.

but yea. i give up. no idea what you are trying to achieve here. some people...

EDIT: how in the fucking hell are you not getting it?! jesus!!

- all backs turned to the player

- two shots fired total

- insta 180° turn and shooting

- as mentioned before...latest dev build

nuff said...

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bad Benson

[froggyluv 2136]

Not wishing to enter the heated argument but I just tried the repro a few times and when I shoot the guy in the middle while prone -the other two don't detect me unless I stand up and move :confused:

Note: Im using every AI mod out there, not sure if that makes a difference.

Edited August 25, 2013 by froggyluv

[turin turambar 0]

Not wishing to enter the heated argument but I just tried the repro a few times and when I shoot the guy in the middle while prone -the other two don't detect me unless I stand up and move :confused:

Note: Im using every AI mod out there, not sure if that makes a difference.

.... Seriously, what do you think?

This shit is why developers usually ignore consumers.

[bad benson 1733]

when I shoot the guy in the middle while prone -the other two don't detect me

kill the guy with two shots with atleast the time in between like in the video above. it's a very specific case but it can be reproduced very easily and turns out the same everytime. and yea. using AI mods is not a good idea.

again. i realise that there have been changes made but the issue remains at its core because the game will make the AI auto aim and shoot you in that specific situation. so the total time to react will always be zero if you do it like i did in the video, no matter how the delays are set up otherwise.

i'm not trying make any statements about how it exactly works or what is the exact cause of this, nor am i saying that it all sucks. my point is that just the threshold/delay system will not cut it as long as the AI gets an advantage, if a guy gets killed in the manner described. it will always create the robotic wtf moment seen in the vids. other than that, the latest AI is pretty nice.

[Azzur33 1]

sorry but that just isn't true. watch it again please. yes there are exceptions but that doesn't make this bug/bad feature or what ever you want to call it nonexisting. they infact DO turn instantly and look EXACTLY at the player and shoot at him.

what makes it so hard to believe? you've been on about it with KeyCat for a page and already realised that he was right...

and that brings me back to my original post before all the nonsense.

Oh please mr Benson.

What we are seeing in your video and in your repro, is exactly what I said earlier:

"It is Obvious that killing one group member usually (always, with some exceptions) makes the leader turn at you immediately. He doesn't Know your Exact location, but the approximate location, he still has to find you."

-In your repro, you are spotted at the moment they turn. Of course they know your exact location, THEY SEE YOU. They are not "blind" you know.

If they are facing you, you don't have to shoot a single bullet, THEY SEE YOU, and start shooting immediately.

Killing one of the group members, do NOT pinpoint your location, them turning quickly and SEEING YOU pinpoints your location.

You can test that by increasing the distance to 300 for example, putting one scope in, and shooting one.

IF they pinpoint you, the one with the scope should turn instantly and start shooting.

Now .. that is not happening. They don't know a thing.

Keep on shooting and wounding them, they'll quick-turn, but do they pinpoint you? NO.

You can clearly see scoped one has to find you first. He sweeps with his gun over the approximate position, and spots you.

If they can pinpoint you, HE SHOULD HAVE POINTED HIS GUN INSTANTLY AT YOU.

What the hell should I make of this?

Should I admit you are right, they are aimbots, they look exactly where you are and shoot you when you kill one of them, while evidence is against that assumption.

More logical explanation is:

They turn and see you right away, as you are not hiding, and you are clearly visible at the very moment they turn. They DO NOT NEED to scope you down, as they can see you "with their bare eyes".

If that is not possible, they'll use scopes to find you.

And Now, the REAL issue.

Should something be tweaked? YES.

The "quick turn" speed and delay or lack of delay after you shoot one of them, and when you only wound them.

As I said, "Maybe it needs some little tweaking though, to make it feel more "natural".

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

but yea. i give up. no idea what you are trying to achieve here. some people...

EDIT: how in the fucking hell are you not getting it?! jesus!!

Instant-turn = problematic.

Them seeing you after they turn = Obvious and intended behaviour.

Got it?

Once more:

IF they shouldn't see you when they are facing you (or sideways) and you are rather close, and on the open or poorly hidden, THEN it would be a big problem.

IF they shouldn't be able to move their guns at you quickly when they see you, there would be a heated argument about the turning speed and easy kills again.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Azzur33

[bad benson 1733]

Killing one of the group members, do NOT pinpoint your location, them turning quickly and SEEING YOU pinpoints your location.

listen. i don't care about your definitions of "seeing" and "knowing". the quick turn is exactly the issue. read the following very carefully, then watch the video. and then read it very carefully again.

the squad auto turns into the players direction after 5 shots fired at the ground.

the squad auto turns into the players direction after 2 shots which are both aimed at one single unit in the manner described.

it will turn out like that every time, if you do it right.

5 > 2. got it now?

the whole discussion about definitions was initiated by maturin after he saw in my vids that the issue is present, which he said it wasn't before. i was describing the problem as i saw it. if you have to be pedantic about "turning", "aiming" and "knowing" then do so in your free time but please don't bother me with it. if you want to believe that some ways how i describe things make this issue not exisitent then i can do nothing about that. my whole agenda is to make BI aware of this and not win some argument.

sure if you want say "balance can fix this". i have no problem with that. no idea what the point is but ok. let me put it this way so you can handle it better maybe "BI please balance the AI in a way that it won't auto turn to the player after 2 kill shots".

and just a side note. the turn doesn't even use the proper turning anim that AI use in close quarters, so it's obvious that there's some forced help mechanism at work here that overrides the rest.

so after all this pointless discussing the fact remains that the AI is aided by the engine if you kill a squad member not fast enough. please someone who actually is working on the AI do something about it. it's all i'm advocating.

EDIT:

Instant-turn = problematic.

Them seeing you after they turn = obvious, and preferable.

exactly. why would i have something against that. never said anything like that. the problem here is not the AI being able to see at all but the engine helping them out in that specific scenario in a very forceful way. anything else would be reading stuff into my posts just to win the argument...

Keep on shooting and wounding them

not the scenario i'm talking about. please read properly.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bad Benson

[maturin 12]

EDIT: how in the fucking hell are you not getting it?! jesus!!

We have proven you wrong in multiple ways, multiple times. You have refused to answer a single argument or even entertain the possibility of other factors at work. Your fervor is wholly irrational; it matches that of a religious fanatic. You thump your meaningless video like they thump their bibles, without bothering to ask yourself what it means and how it came to be.

Answer me this: why do I have to kill the target with two shots, spaced out over several seconds, for this supposed magical glitch to occur? Why can I reproduce the same behavior under very different conditions, with different causes?

I know there is a problem. But your refusal to find the cause, and to describe it with empirical terms, makes all your contributions useless to anyone with the means to fix bugs.

And when I say empirical, I am not trying to make myself look smart. Words have meanings. Software development is a science, and anyone can use the scientific method, whether you're developing vaccines or cooking brownies for a bakesale.

listen. i don't care about your definitions of "seeing" and "knowing". the quick turn is exactly the issue. read the following very carefully, then watch the video. and then read it very carefully again.

This MATTERS. These definitions are critical. If you can't be bothered engaging with these facts, your presence here is wholly pointless and disruptive.

Furthermore, the quick turn is exactly how the AI should be working. If they hear a shot from behind them, they should INSTANTLY turn towards it and scan for targets. Isn't that what you do? The problem is what happens after they turn. Do they see all with robot eyes, or gaze in confusion until the next puff of muzzle smoke?

5 > 2. got it now?

What you have there is an EFFECT. We are in this furious argument because you confuse the EFFECT for the CAUSE. Please, ask yourself WHY there is a discrepancy here.

Oh please mr Benson.

Hold fast, my Finnish friend. All your sisu will be required for this task.

Edited August 25, 2013 by maturin

[bad benson 1733]

it matches that of a religious fanatic. You thump your meaningless video like they thump their bibles, without bothering to ask yourself what it means and how it came to be.

wow seriously?

why do I have to kill the target with two shots, spaced out over several seconds

so now it's several yea? count the seconds inbetween the shots in the video (i know right?). then use that for the repro. i could make another video reproducing the scenario several times in a row but something tells me it's not worth it. you are so tangled up in your self image and what you think about me that you can't even admit what Azzur just said. there definately is a forced help that turns the squad instantly into the players direction. but yea. i guess you'll never get it.

I know there is a problem.

this supposed magical glitch to occur

both can't be true.

you are contradicting yourself here mister scientist :p

oh and for good measure please explain us mortals what exactly is at work here. maybe paste some code from the danger or formation fsms that is used to make them insta turn. let's get really specific here. oh wait you said there is no issue. oh nevermind you said there is but i described it wrong and now BI will break the game because of me. damn this is so confusing. please help me good sir!

EDIT:

What you have there is an EFFECT.

yup. so? your point is what exactly?

because you confuse the EFFECT for the CAUSE.

no i don't. i never made the distinction because it's not needed since i'm solely describing AI behavior as i experience it. if you don't like how i describe things than please send an essay about it as PM. i'll be sure to read it and share my thoughts.

you still are not quite sure if there is auto insta turn or not (eventhough it's painfully obvious). time to get in sync with your tac team buddy Azzur. atleast he's willing to acknowledge that it happens.

your whole logical stradegy was that i see things that aren't there because i confuse things like cause and effect. upon being proven wrong about that and been shown that there is in fact a problem you now seem to be stuck on your initial argument.

time to move on...

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bad Benson

[maturin 12]

There is now not a single part of your post that isn't a personal attack or troll logic, looking for a means of attack where non exists.

I recognize that no one else is likely to read this whole sad exchange between BadBenson and myself, so I will summarize what our repro videos (his and mine) prove:

Observed Behavior

1. The glitch where wounding an AI gave away your position is gone.

2. Wounding an AI makes them immediately turn towards the sound of the muzzle blast. This is correct behavior, but it shows an inconsistency in AI reactions. When shooting the ground at their feet or in the air, they are confused or slow to react to the sound. This is an inconsistency that should be evaluated by the devs, as it seems somewhat 'under the hood.' (Although gammadust, you may have the knowhow for this topic)

3. When an AI is in a high alarm state and searching visually for the source of a gunshot, their target acquisition is still far too good. It is often instant and near-flawless.

4. AI sometimes ignore gunshots from enemy soldiers as close as 200m, just because they never notice the rounds landing.

5. AI sometimes react to audible enemy fire after a long delay of around 5 seconds.

Expected behavior

1. AI should analyze gunshots to the maximum extent of their ability, whether the rounds are hitting the ground at their feet, cracking overheard, wounding or killing group members. There should be no delay, if they are in an Aware state.

2. The visual target-searching ability of AI in a high alarm state needs to be turned down to more human levels. Although they should be able to spot standing or kneeling enemies out to 1000m without optics, they must take longer to spot targets that are prone in grass or surrounded by vegetation. The best workaround would be to force the AI to engage area targets (or put differently, an ever-decreasing CEP), gradually homing in on the exact point location of the shooter. People have been begging for this feature since ArmA 2, but it appears Dr Hladik is on the case. We just want to let you know that there is still work to be done.

Edited August 25, 2013 by maturin

[MrR4PT0R 1]

From what i have seen on the video , it seems that killing the guy instantly makes your location known , there are other videos that show the exact same issue .

I have seen a video where the player teleported far behind them after killing one team member and the squad turned to search on the opposite direction found and killed him.

Also just to note on the teleportation video , there was no direct line of sight with the enemy at the location where he teleported

[maturin 12]

From what i have seen on the video , it seems that killing the guy instantly makes your location known , there are other videos that show the exact same issue .

I have seen a video where the player teleported far behind them after killing one team member and the squad turned to search on the opposite direction found and killed him.

Also just to note on the teleportation video , there was no direct line of sight with the enemy at the location where he teleported

I don't want to rehash, but there are any number of things that will 'seemingly' (very important word here) make your position known.

And those teleportation videos can no longer be reproduced, because the glitch is fixed. The bugtracker reflects this, so let's not muddy the waters. Not to mention, the act of teleporting is alien to gameplay and you never know what could be happening under the hood. The game always knows where the player is, and when you miraculously change positions, it could conceivably let that information slip to other units.

[dale0404 5]

@ maturin & Bad Benson,

I am all for heated discussions on these forums, its good for the soul! However, do not turn this into a slanging match between the both of you and stop with the personal attacks from both sides. By all means carry on the discussion but do it from a civil point of view.

[bad benson 1733]

There is now not a single part of your post that isn't a personal attack or troll logic

everyone reading will know that after comparing me to a religious fanatic, this description fits you better than me...

ok now to the issue;

just helping out with some slight corrections...

1. The glitch where wounding an AI gave away your position is gone.

it was (and is) always killing not wounding that is the problem. maybe suboptimal description by metalcraze in the original ticket (no offense)? dunno.

Wounding an AI makes them immediately turn towards the sound of the muzzle blast.

wrong. as my repro video and mission show the first hit will not have an effect. BUT the kill shot will have an effect on the remaining group.

This is correct behavior, but it shows an inconsistency in AI reactions.

makes no sense. is it correct or is it not. pick one. stop with the rhetorical bs. what makes you say it's correct behavior? what is correct about that? despite the fact it's partly not true ofc (read above).

why should shooting someone make him able to spot you better?!

after all this, it's quite upsetting that there's not one mention of the auto turn of the whole squad after killing one unit. since it's the main problem and solely what i'm on about. but yea. expected.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bad Benson