AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Azzur33 1]

I have to say, the AI at the moment is horrible, especially enemy AI, and there is also something horribly wrong with their damage models. Sometimes bullets go straight through them, you have to shoot them 5 times before they die, even with headshots! While i can be shot from 500 meters with one bullet and drop dead instantly.

Are you sure you play Arma 3?

The game I'm playing has pretty good AI, bullets hit them and they die, headshot kills immediately, no 500 meters instant kills - if they hit with the first bullet (which usually doesn't happen), I can take 2-4 bullets more.

[aevitas 10]

Any idea if these changes have hit the dev build? I'm still observing the same thing.

Wow, never seen this yet. Then again I've never spotted an AI going up the stairs...

I think the AI in general is pretty aweful :/

-When I yell at my squad to find cover while we're under enemy fire, they sometimes just stand about like a headless duck and don't even try to take cover...

-Taking cover in general is just awefully bad.

-I find it very hard to get them to do what I want, if I tell them to get in a vehicle (a transporting chopper for example), it usually takes about 30 seconds until they're all inside, while they stand next to it. There's always one or more that simply go "negative" and don't move, I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

-Friendly AI generally are ideal for ruining my missions for the reasons explained above, they all get raped because they can't 'find' cover quick enough.

I'm a pretty new Arma 3 player, I know these issues are pretty known but I felt I had to post it anyway. Is there any wording about AI being fixed before release? Will there even be a new big patch for the regular beta game or is that not known?

To me, it's a gamebreaker. Enemy AI is just as stupid to be honest.. I tried to find an addon that fixes this, but I have no idea which would be good. I think it should be good by default, if not excellent.

@ Above: I have no issues killing THEM, but they sometimes seem to one or 2 shot me while I'm hiding completely covered by either high grass / bushes or so. They just shoot right through it. This always happens after I sneaked on them, killed 1 or 2 AI, I run away from them and try to sneak on them from the other side. They just do a 180 degree turn and insta-gib me while they never spotted me running there (I kept a close eye out on the hill they were on, I dont think they even moved from their place). Whenever I quit a mission it's because I can't sneak on ANY AI anymore, suddenly AI from a different zone also directly spot me whenever I get close and everyone and their mother knows where I am like I have a gigantic arrow above my head with "I'm here, shoot me!".

I don't know if it's my AI settings or if I'm doing it wrong, but I find it really annoying.

Edited August 23, 2013 by aevitas

[alx 20]

Please do not release the game without fixing this.

Played a steamworks game last night where the AI fell off the breakwater into the harbour because of this issue. Is there a ticket for this we can vote up?

[windies 11]

Bullets don't go through anyone. You're just a bad shot.

I've done a lot of testing with this and it does happen. Sometimes you can squarely shoot someone right in the head, get the blood splatter FX and they continue on fine. I'm talking with a 6.5 round too, not like a 9mm. I've noticed it a lot with the big caliber snipers because the blood poof is easy to spot and a .408 or .50 to the chest center mass is going to drop you no matter what.

[Azzur33 1]

I've done a lot of testing with this and it does happen. Sometimes you can squarely shoot someone right in the head, get the blood splatter FX and they continue on fine. I'm talking with a 6.5 round too, not like a 9mm. I've noticed it a lot with the big caliber snipers because the blood poof is easy to spot and a .408 or .50 to the chest center mass is going to drop you no matter what.

Never happened to me.

If it would have happened even once, I would believe you are right. But no.

Every single time I hit them well in the head, they'll drop dead.

But there are non-lethal headshots too. If you hit them in the jaw area when their head is sideways, if you hit the side of their face, in the helmet, while they are facing you, you'll get the blood and/or the "I'm hit!" -twitch, but not the kill.

The big caliber gun's don't kill if the bullet hits the hands (if their body is not behind them). They sure do go through, but wound the guy aswell.

AI doesn't show the pain or disability much. At the moment you can't see if they are having a near-death experience or just a scratch.

So, in the game, they would seem to be ok, while in real life their arm would be ripped off, or they would be unconscious, or unable to even walk and so on.

But one thing is sure. Bullets do not go through them randomly.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

-When I yell at my squad to find cover while we're under enemy fire, they sometimes just stand about like a headless duck and don't even try to take cover...

-Taking cover in general is just awefully bad.

-I find it very hard to get them to do what I want, if I tell them to get in a vehicle (a transporting chopper for example), it usually takes about 30 seconds until they're all inside, while they stand next to it. There's always one or more that simply go "negative" and don't move, I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

-Friendly AI generally are ideal for ruining my missions for the reasons explained above, they all get raped because they can't 'find' cover quick enough.

I'm a pretty new Arma 3 player, I know these issues are pretty known but I felt I had to post it anyway. Is there any wording about AI being fixed before release? Will there even be a new big patch for the regular beta game or is that not known?

To me, it's a gamebreaker. Enemy AI is just as stupid to be honest.. I tried to find an addon that fixes this, but I have no idea which would be good. I think it should be good by default, if not excellent.

Taking cover is a tricky one. To make AI find a Real cover always, that would break a lot. If they have a cover near them, they'll usually take that one. If not, it's better to stay prone and point the gun to the enemy.

When do you have difficulties to get them in a vehicle and what kind of vehicle?

Can you make a video or do a repro mission?

If you don't have enough space around your chopper (usually the area front of the chopper) when you order them to get in, they may response with "no can do" and stand still. If you move the chopper, he'll get in.

If your team gets killed a lot, try to split them to fire teams and practice quick orders.

[maturin 12]

I've done a lot of testing with this and it does happen. Sometimes you can squarely shoot someone right in the head, get the blood splatter FX and they continue on fine. I'm talking with a 6.5 round too, not like a 9mm. I've noticed it a lot with the big caliber snipers because the blood poof is easy to spot and a .408 or .50 to the chest center mass is going to drop you no matter what.

In MP, I'd believe it. But it's far more likely that the impact FX glitched than the hit detection did. Why bother testing if you're not going to show any proof? Just to come to the forums and cause discord?

No one else seems to have your problem (except noobs, and when I was a newb I also swore up and down that the enemy saw through every object and was immune to bullets because I didn't understand ballistics and spread), so you need to repro or go home.

[windies 11]

In MP, I'd believe it. But it's far more likely that the impact FX glitched than the hit detection did. Why bother testing if you're not going to show any proof? Just to come to the forums and cause discord?

No one else seems to have your problem (except noobs, and when I was a newb I also swore up and down that the enemy saw through every object and was immune to bullets because I didn't understand ballistics and spread), so you need to repro or go home.

Nope it's happened in single player, it could very well be a problem with the hit FX, I have no idea. As far as testing, I just meant that I've done a lot of testing in general with the weapons in game, mostly to learn their efficiency at different ranges. I've had this come up quite a bit across all sorts of weapons ranging from pistols to high caliber rifles.

Also with that attitude, I really could care less whether you believe me or not. I'm not sure if I pissed in your Corn Flakes or something. Also what discord am I causing, because it seems it's only affecting you.

[maturin 12]

You haven't been here for four years with some new player whining about cheating AI every single day with never an ounce of evidence. It creates all sorts of urban legends and turns people away from the game, mostly because of bullshit from people used to corridor shooters.

I don't know a single veteran player, modder or tester who has ever managed to confirm such tall tales, so if you really saw something, and can reliably reproduce it, for fuck's sake show us. Then we'll be your biggest advocates. But until then, everyone's so damn sick the general atmosphere of bellyaching.

[gammadust 12]

@Windies

If you could "care less" then you already care enough for me.

You picked my interest, could you pm the mission where you tested the weapons at different ranges?

[windies 11]

@Windies

If you could "care less" then you already care enough for me.

You picked my interest, could you pm the mission where you tested the weapons at different ranges?

Mostly I would just hop in the editor and put units down and test out the weapons at various ranges. Maturin could be right about it just being a hit FX glitch because it seems to be when you hit the outer edge of the model is when you notice it happening the most.

@Maturin I've been playing since 2004 and joined the forums in 2006. I lost my forum account with the web hack and just gave up trying to recover it after being ignored by their support staff. That's probably why this account has a join date the day after the hack :rolleyes:. The only bullshit I see comes from people like you and your attitude.

[dale0404 5]

Gents, can we please have less of the personal attacks, it'll only lead to heartache and infractions and I really don't like infractions!!!

[NordKindchen 12]

As mentionned before it really is a problem that the position of the shooter is given away to every unit in the squad instantly.

Heres why:

Set up a group of enemys at 500 meters away. Shoot near them with a sniper rifle.

Shoot one AI that is currently looking towards you.

Even though he dies within a milli second after you shoot he is still capable of giving your position away to every one in his squad.

On top of that each AI is ready to fire at your position the millisecond you are spotted. They dont need to look for you at that given direction but instantly shoot you.

Solution: Insert threshold for information communication between AIs. If AI dies within this threshold theres no information transportation.

Instead of giving every enemy the exact location of the shooter after he is spotted let the AI first look at the direction the shooter is and then apply the rules of spotting.

[das attorney 858]

Any idea if these changes have hit the dev build? I'm still observing the same thing.

Same here - really good to have a dev come back to you over this. Been trying to build an AI FSM for a game mode, and it's impossible to do anything useful in CQB with the AI when they keep ejecting themselves out of staircases randomly. (In my case, it was the control tower on Stratis Airbase that they kept warping through the walls rather than walking to the top).

didn't went in yet

Good to hear you guys are on the case. :)

[gammadust 12]

@nordkindchen

pretty much and the ticket describing this objectionable behaviour is: 0010143: Grouped AI is aware of kills even when they shouldn't notice, vote it pls.

[fragmachine 12]

As mentionned before it really is a problem that the position of the shooter is given away to every unit in the squad instantly.

Heres why:

Set up a group of enemys at 500 meters away. Shoot near them with a sniper rifle.

Shoot one AI that is currently looking towards you.

Even though he dies within a milli second after you shoot he is still capable of giving your position away to every one in his squad.

On top of that each AI is ready to fire at your position the millisecond you are spotted. They dont need to look for you at that given direction but instantly shoot you.

Solution: Insert threshold for information communication between AIs. If AI dies within this threshold theres no information transportation.

Instead of giving every enemy the exact location of the shooter after he is spotted let the AI first look at the direction the shooter is and then apply the rules of spotting.

If only. Insert 5-6 groups of NATO soldiers with careless behaviour or without ATs and 300-400m away insert one Ifrit with HMG. Put yourself as a NATO grenadier among other NATO groups, fire a grenade launcher towards the Ifrit.

Result should be that the Ifrit will always and only attack you at first, ignoring rest of the soldiers among you - if attacking them at all.

[Varanon 892]

Even though he dies within a milli second after you shoot he is still capable of giving your position away to every one in his squad.

On top of that each AI is ready to fire at your position the millisecond you are spotted. They dont need to look for you at that given direction but instantly shoot you.

Solution: Insert threshold for information communication between AIs. If AI dies within this threshold theres no information transportation.

Instead of giving every enemy the exact location of the shooter after he is spotted let the AI first look at the direction the shooter is and then apply the rules of spotting.

This ties in with this issue too. Espeically, the communication is only between group members and not beyond the group.

The detection of the player should be based on different factors, like, was the shot audible, was the shot visible (muzzle flash) and perceived by any group member, and of course, is the group member that could have heard/seen the shooter still alive ?

if this is fixed, the game will be much less frustrating. As it is now, the uncanny ability of enemy AI to spot you even in high grass 1 km aways is just frustrating.

[Azzur33 1]

if this is fixed, the game will be much less frustrating. As it is now, the uncanny ability of enemy AI to spot you even in high grass 1 km aways is just frustrating.

Just tried that.

1 km, sniper in grass, one shot kill.

They didn't see me. Squad leader with the scope was seaching,

Shot another one, and all over the place, squad leader spotted me, he and autoriflemen shot couple of bullets, didn't hit anywhere close. Crawled in the grass 15 meters to the side and I was 100% safe.

Tried with a rifleman with scope, standing up. They didn't see me.

Emptied a full magazine to them, dancing around, they spotted me. Squad leader and autoriflemen started shooting. Eventually one hits me lightly. I go prone, moved few meters in the grass, making sure I was not in a slope, and had grass between my and their "eyes", patched myself, and I was 100% safe.

Then stood up, made some dance moves again and they started to shoot at me again.

Conclusion: AI can't spot you in high grass 1 km (or a lot closer) away, even if you shot at them and acted like a madman just before.

Works, if the grass Is concealing every part of you from their eye level and you move concealed away from the spot they saw you.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Azzur33

[Varanon 892]

Conclusion: AI can't spot you in high grass 1 km (or a lot closer) away, even if you shot at them and acted like a madman just before.

Good to hear, because the last time I tried something similar, I was immediately spotted with 100 % accuracy. Been some time, though, so it was obviously addressed in one of the latter dev builds.

[bad benson 1733]

i think although a threshold would help i'd rather see this being attacked at the core. which is the unit knowing your exact position after being shot by you. we should not only ask why it is shared after death. we should also and even more ask why the unit knows it in the first place.

in short: AI units knowing your exact position after being shot by you == major bug.......AI unit then sharing that knowledge, it should never have gotten, with his squad AFTER being shot == another major bug. these basically are two separate bugs while the second one is influenced by the first and is being made noticable through the even worse first one.

so yea. i'm over thinking but my point is: fix it at the core. don't use bandaid solutions like threshold to hide a bigger problem.

[windies 11]

i think although a threshold would help i'd rather see this being attacked at the core. which is the unit knowing your exact position after being shot by you. we should not only ask why it is shared after death. we should also and even more ask why the unit knows it in the first place.

in short: AI units knowing your exact position after being shot by you == major bug.......AI unit then sharing that knowledge, it should never have gotten, with his squad AFTER being shot == another major bug. these basically are two separate bugs while the second one is influenced by the first and is being made noticable through the even worse first one.

so yea. i'm over thinking but my point is: fix it at the core. don't use bandaid solutions like threshold to hide a bigger problem.

I pretty much agree with this. I don't understand why the AI would know your exact position automatically if you shoot them.

[maturin 12]

i think although a threshold would help i'd rather see this being attacked at the core. which is the unit knowing your exact position after being shot by you. we should not only ask why it is shared after death. we should also and even more ask why the unit knows it in the first place.

in short: AI units knowing your exact position after being shot by you == major bug.......AI unit then sharing that knowledge, it should never have gotten, with his squad AFTER being shot == another major bug. these basically are two separate bugs while the second one is influenced by the first and is being made noticable through the even worse first one.

so yea. i'm over thinking but my point is: fix it at the core. don't use bandaid solutions like threshold to hide a bigger problem.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

It's already fixed.

Even at a handful of meters, the AI doesn't know your position until they acquire you visually.

When the AI is looking away from you, wounding them at close range with a rifle gives them a KnowsAbout of 1.5.

This is simply an indication that they know you are out there somewhere.

The only thing they know about your location is information gathered from your muzzle blast. Highly inaccurate information, I may add.

[bad benson 1733]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. etc...

ok dude listen. i'm gonna ignore the tone of your post and get right to the facts. in fact i'll provide this video here since it explains everything i just described. in short: you are wrong.

as you can see there are three different situations.

1. supression - AI slowly seems to get more knowledge about you with each shot.

2. one shot one kill (this one is new to me and probably result of a threshold having been added) - you can kill a unit with one shot and the squad seems to not know where you are. nice touch but rare and not really the problem.

3. THIS IS WHERE IT'S AT...unit gets killed with two shots - my bullets seem to have the info of my position in them which then is injected directly into the brain of the victim. so just the time between the two shots was enough to share that info with the squad. notice how the info is shared instantly on death and not before that.

watch the shot count (sorry for typo :o ) and the squad reactions. it's the same situation played several times. i just made this video using the current dev build.

there are cases where this works if the time between the two shots is short enough or for some other random reason.

all this only shows exactly what i just described right before you "corrected" me. a threshold is NOT the solution. the fact remains that a victim will get the exact position of the shooter injected on getting hit.

so please try not to drown posts that bring up this issue with nonsense (at least until it's really fixed). and maybe do some meaningful tests yourself before posting wrong information. not trying to start anything here but you are obviously in a mood. so maybe take a step back and let this nice thread thrive. thx

[maturin 12]

I DID do tests. With a good mission that displays both knowsabout and perceived position.

No one really understands knowsabout except BIS, but I know it doesn't mean what you think it means. A knowsabout of 2 does not mean that the AI knows your exact position. Neither does the fact of their opening fire, if you can believe it.

That is a bad repro video. There is zero empirical proof that the AI actually knows your position.

What I see is the AI hearing the direction of your gunshot, and turning to acquire you visually. There is no strong evidence that they know your position before they turn to face you.

Please read the following carefully. What is probably happening is this: The AI doesn't pay enough attention to incoming fire unless it hits them. This is well known. They ignore bullets cracks. They often ignore nearby impacts. In the best case scenario, they only react to muzzle blasts 4-5 seconds after the fact.

When a unit is actually struck by a bullet, they react immediately, analyzing the heading of the shot and sharing this data with the group. They then turn to face you and they see you.

If you kill the aforementioned unit, it cannot analyze the muzzle blast. The remaining units behave as they always did, paying half-attention to the auditory inputs.

This explains all the behavior in your video. The problem remains the good 'ol ArmA 2 spotting system where a sufficiently alarmed unit will ALWAYS spot a target when there is LoS.

If we are to approach this problem rationally and empirically, this must be most credible theory to be tested because it agrees with your evidence and with mine, which is that even when a unit is wounded and alarmed, there is no perceived point position created. To demonstrate this, you will need to download Metalcraze's repro mission from this ticket: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204

In short, the glitch is not that the AI spots you. The glitch is when the AI fails to spot you, even if that is a more desirable outcome from a gameplay perspective. This is a balance issue, not a severe glitch at the core of the AI. Try testing again, but this time roll out of sight before the bullet lands. I can guarantee that the AI will looks towards you, but be unaware of your exact location.

Edit: Download the 3rd repro mission, I mean, and please be civil henceforth.

Edited August 25, 2013 by maturin

[bad benson 1733]

but I know it doesn't mean what you think it means.

ah! do you? maybe read the whole thread and my remarks on knowsabout and you'll see that this is not correct. it's rather an assumption you are making about my knowledge based on...no idea tbh. get off your high horse. it's getting annoying. knowsabout is of no relevance in the video. i just added the HUD for it to show (in an earlier post) that it infact doesn't mean what it implies...

the video i just posted CLEARLY shows the problem i described. i even added the cases where the bandaid threshold fix works to make my point. watch the squad snap on the player's position after the squad member is killed. it doesn't matter how you personally make sense of this. the fact is that it's a bug (bad feature?) that breaks all the new changes to AI perception because, if the conditions are met they will just instantly know where you are no matter which new thresholds for sound recognition BI added lately.

...rest of it...

while you are busy trying to come across all informed and scientfic your are totally ignoring the relevant facts. just watch my video again and compare the shot counter of the different situations. it's all empirical data you need :rolleyes:

you are the one being blinded by your prejudice about certain things. i honestly urge you to go ingame and make several tests again without imagining that you totally know how all this works under the hood. you will clearly see what you also saw in my videos. the rest of the squad will magically turn to you after you kill a squad member. it has been pointed out and discussed several times in this thread (Azzur and KeyCat just a few pages back) and you trying to create the appearance that the problem is non-existent is not helping to get it fixed at all. (this issue is present since ofp)

all you are doing is display an immature need to try to school people. i'm really tired of dealing with you already but the issue is too pressing so i have to correct you here.

and so i don't have to repeat it again and to make it really sink in for you. here's another video i just made (just for you:rolleyes:). as you can see your "muzzle flash theory" can be booked under invalidated. none of the units are facing me. still...after exactly two kill shots the remaining two snap on my position and open fire. compare that to the first half where it takes 5 shots for them to "notice" me while everyone is facing into the exact same directions in both cases.

so now give me another of your pseudo scientific interpretaions on what exactly happened here...

i'm really trying to stay civil but people acting smart while missing the important part just drives me nuts. sorry :p

[maturin 12]

You are not worth talking to. You are not responding to my arguments. That is more disrespectful than any 'smartypants' tone you perceive in my writing.

I already reproduced your video in similar situations with better scripts that visually demonstrate what the AI knows. It doesn't happen.

I am using calm, neutral language with exact wording so I am not misunderstood. I am not accusing or resorting to pathos. It is not pseudo science. It is the scientific method. If you refuse to use it, I can only implore the developers and everyone else to ignore you.

Let me be very clear. I agree that it is bad that the AI turn and see you so soon. It is a bug present since OPFOR. But your are complaining about EFFECT and not CAUSE. There is no bug here, just bad balance. You are using incorrect terms to describe the situation, and you are preventing positive change from occurring by confusing the issue.

Shooting the AI DOES NOT GIVE THEM UNFAIR INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR POSITION. Full stop. It does allow them to turn and see you, using their sense of hearing and sight, with a speed and accuracy that is unfair and unbalanced. But your description of this issue is 100% misleading and false.

Edit: Your video shows this and only this: That wounding the AI makes them spot you faster than shooting the dirt at their feet. This is a problem, but you misinterpret its case and baselessly accuse BI of having deep-rooted problems in their AI.

And finally, if you're going to bash me for using the precise, formal language most appropriate to bugtesting software, I am more than justified in dismissing you as an uneducated nincompoop because you refuse to engage in debate and capitalize your sentences. Then we'll all get banned.

Edited August 25, 2013 by maturin