Bullets appear to be woefully underpowered

[trent 14]

The amount of bullets it was taking to put down soldiers was flagging some concerns for me so I ran some "tests" in the editor. I don't know how well current or future body armour works so it was done on civilians. T-shirts shouldn't do anything to bullets.

Standing 0.5-1 meter away from them and shooting into the upper torso area until they died I found it took:

MX 6.5mm - 1 bullet

Mk20 5.56mm -2 bullets

Scorpion 9mm - 3 bullets

ACP-C2 9mm - 3 bullets

Walther P99 - 4 bullets

I had 7 civilians standing around in case random factors and inconsistent impacts/distances varied. The number of bullets to take them down for each gun didn't change.

It takes on average one 9mm bullet in the torso to kill someone in real life (yes, I know how creepy that sounds). Two bullets in that area for definite. I know there are miracle cases and some armchair generals will bleat on about the terrible stopping power of the 9mm and even the 5.56mm but in real life a piece of metal that fast impacts on flesh like a teeny-tiny meteorite. It's not like there's a lack of gun crimes and shooting to back this up. Hydrostatic shock alone can kill you. Can you imagine if SWAT had to fire 3 bullets every time to put a person down if they used their MP5s?

BIS, rescale the damage plz.

[NicotinKickballovich 1]

A human body is actually pretty though, a lot of people have survived 9 or more hits in the torso in real life. Some have even survived a hit in the heart, but that's an extremely rare thing. The thing what ArmA really needs is a more advanced hitpoint or wounding system. If an arterie gets severed then it normally takes 5 seconds to pass out and then bleed out within 1-5mins, but if hit in the liver then it normally takes 30mins or so depending how big the damage was. If it's a headshot then a 9mm would enter the scull and wouldn't leave an exit point, making the round bounce all around within the skull leading to an instant death, while higher callibers can actually penetrate all the way and leave a tiny chance of survival, but that part isn't really needed.

Also have to keep in mind armor penatration which might soften the impact, leading to a better chance of survival. What I'd love to see is if you get hit in the leg then your character would start limping and so on, but if the wounds are fathal then you would not only start staggering, but also your vision would start to fade/blur out, aiming becomes almost impossible and the only thing that still allows you to do so is adrenaline and in the end simply collapse and bleed out. Something similar to what RO2 has, heck even COD when you'd end up in that "last stand" pose and crawl on your back before bleeding out. ArmA 3 already had that very same last stand pose in the Alpha, but then it got removed, BIS should have kept it and improved it to really act like that if you get immobilized.

[Inimical_rize 1]

To say 1 9mm can cause instant death isn't wrong but not right either, So many factors can come into play when it comes to Terminal balistics, some of witch civlians would never think of.

The 9mm round wasn't designed to kill but more to stop, and the person using it probably law enforcement are trained to stop people not kill them, I can if you like give you a rediculosly long shpeil about ballistics and what nots but i will link you to these other posts that may shed light on your opinion. I know its relation to suppressors but the fundamentals are there, If you want me to explain what I think on the subject I can. Im currently using an iPad and walls of text are hard to check for errors on this, not to mention typing as a whole ( Im not iPad savvy )

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?155644-Weapon-damage-reduced-when-attached-a-silencer

locate my post at the lower part of the thread and take a read, If youd like anything elaborated on or have any questions just pop them at me and I can explain to you all sorts from what i know and my experiances.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Inimical_rize

[Sneakson 1]

A moment ago they were overpowered and now underpowered...

No, the wounding system is simply incomplete.

[trent 14]

Think we're missing the forest for the trees here.

Would you expect on average an unarmoured person to not be "dropped" by four 9mm bullets at close range?

[Steakslim 1]

depends on shot placement and the type of round.

[trent 14]

depends on shot placement and the type of round.

*sigh* standard military issue, randomly distributed in the upper torso.

[ak1287 1]

*sigh* standard military issue, randomly distributed in the upper torso.

Then, not necessarily.

[TSAndrey 1]

The pistols and SMG's have always been underpowered in Arma.... A big problem in A3 now, is that I shoot a guy with my MX rifle, he just twitches, keeps running, and heals behind a rock. I think there need to be more penalties for getting shoot!

[bigpickle 0]

9mm or a .45 is a show stopper, should be modeled that way.

[das attorney 857]

Would you expect on average an unarmoured person to not be "dropped" by four 9mm bullets at close range?

If they didn't drop straightaway, they would be a mess for sure.

[bigshot 62]

funny, Ive noticed too, that I had to put quite a number of slugs into an enemy AI before he would drop (range was only about 15-20m). It was so noticeable that for a second I thought I was online fighting some sort of lag!

Haven't played since the Alpha in late April and this was something I don't recall seeing before today. Yet at the same time I seem to get 1-shotted by the AI all the time. Not liking this at all.

[Steakslim 1]

9mm or a .45 is a show stopper, should be modeled that way.

The gun community would have a rather long debate as to if 9mm would be a "show stopper", especially after the infamous 1986 FBI shootout which lead to the development of the 10mm round. Different strokes for different folks.

[Inimical_rize 1]

.9mm and .45 aren't show stoppers, nothing is, just because people drop in movies or on handy cams of serious situations they're not dead, the weapons are doing as built to do stopping. this is by incredible trauma. hit them in the heart head or base of the scull yes, they will most likely die. randomly capping rounds off into a dudes torso will most likely not kill him.

[BigBoss 10]

hit them in the heart head or base of the scull yes, they will most likely die. randomly capping rounds off into a dudes torso will most likely not kill him.

Agreed, people can survive multiple gunshots, especially if they were fired from a pistol. However, enemies hit multiple times shouldn't be able to fight back effectively, they should be knocked out.

Almost every shooter has this issue, you hit an enemy multiple times, sometimes he even does some dramatic "it hurts, I'm dying" animation, then they just shrug it off "hah fooled ya" and continue fighting like nothing happened. They run around, get behind cover, yet a second ago they had blood spurting out of their fresh gunshot wounds.

[ak1287 1]

9mm is a show stopper, should be modeled that way.

Said no one who has ever fired a 9mm at a person, ever.

[max power 21]

Agreed, people can survive multiple gunshots, especially if they were fired from a pistol. However, enemies hit multiple times shouldn't be able to fight back effectively, they should be knocked out.

Almost every shooter has this issue, you hit an enemy multiple times, sometimes he even does some dramatic "it hurts, I'm dying" animation, then they just shrug it off "hah fooled ya" and continue fighting like nothing happened. They run around, get behind cover, yet a second ago they had blood spurting out of their fresh gunshot wounds.

According to the fbi study that Inimical_rize is referring, the reaction of someone getting shot by a handgun round through non-vital structures is mainly up to them. Whether they fall down, run around, get angry, faint, or something else, it has much to do with their preconceived notion of what happens to someone when they get shot.

[becubed 24]

According to the fbi study that Inimical_rize is referring, the reaction of someone getting shot by a handgun round through non-vital structures is mainly up to them. Whether they fall down, run around, get angry, faint, or something else, it has much to do with their preconceived notion of what happens to someone when they get shot.

Not just handgun rounds, this is from an article looking at incidents with the San Diego police Border Task force in the 70's.

The third suspect was facing Officer Chacon, who this night was armed with a shotgun. Chacon raised the shotgun and, at a range nearly close enough to touch the suspect with his hand, discharged the shotgun once directly into the center of the suspects chest.

The suspect stood for a moment looking at him, then turned around and walked calmly away into the darkness. Chacon followed him cautiously and soon found him lying peacefully on the ground, dead of massive chest injuries. (San Diego Lieutenant Richard Snider would later describe the wound as "...a hole in his chest you could throw a cat through."

Other things to note, in the five incidents looked at, all at a range of only a few meters, the offices fired about 90 rounds, and got 29 hits.

Of 8 rounds fired while in physical contact only 4 hit. 15 people were wounded by a total of 32 bullets. Most received only one hit, four were stuck by multiple bullets and one was hit 8 times. Of these 15 casualties 2 died and the rest recovered, all those who suffered multiple wounds were among those that recovered.

[BigBoss 10]

According to the fbi study that Inimical_rize is referring, the reaction of someone getting shot by a handgun round through non-vital structures is mainly up to them. Whether they fall down, run around, get angry, faint, or something else, it has much to do with their preconceived notion of what happens to someone when they get shot.

Alright, but this can't be simulated in a game, or at least it would be unnecessarily complicated to do so.

I just don't like it when enemy combatants in video games act like absolutely nothing happened, after receiving multiple gun shots. They do not move slower, their aim is the same and they never bleed out.

At least in ArmA3 they go prone and can only crawl when they are heavily injured, so that's already better than in other games.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Becubed, I wasn't quoting an FBI study HOW EVER! interesting stuff I googled it and it opened the eyes, I can almost understand what it's trying to say but personally and through experience I believe that a 9mm round can strike with the force of a sledge hammer full into the chest, I believe this to be the reason 90% of targets 'Drop' (as soldiers say) If you couple multiple shots to the sternum from any type of handgun repeated blows with that force can and will kill.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Inimical_rize

[tpw 2314]

I'm of the opinion that the ability of units in Arma3 to soak up damage with barely a twitch is a bit unrealistic. But on the other hand, at least we are provided with appropriate eventhandlers and script commands to change things. Not trying to bang my own drum here, but I've been working on a mod (TPW FALL) that among other things causes AI and player to fall over when shot. The satisfaction of seeing a target hit the deck after putting a round into his centre of mass is great, even if he gets up again after a while.

[Primarch 10]

http://puu.sh/3EdN8.png (483 kB)

When a bullet explodes in you like this, you do not just fucking twitch it away.

[becubed 24]

When a bullet explodes in you like this, you do not just fucking twitch it away.

Quite right, but there are many angles that mean it will have passed through you before the expansion takes place, in which case you are left with a pen sized hole poked through the target.

As an idea is it possible to adjust the allowFleeing on the fly? If so you could adjust it on a hit making the soldier more likely to think "##ck this for a party. I'm outa here!"

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 AM ----------

Becubed, I wasn't quoting an FBI study HOW EVER!

Sorry Inimical I think you mean Max Power there.

I agree with you about the pistol rounds, I've been playing pen and paper role playing games and man scaled war games for around 30 years and in that time lethality of firearms has been a constant debate in the community. Best reply from a long standing member in one forum went along the lines of "Well, when the Guardia Civil guy shot me in the chest the following happened......" hard to argue against that kind of testing.:eek:

[ak1287 1]

http://puu.sh/3EdN8.png (483 kB)

When a bullet explodes in you like this, you do not just fucking twitch it away.

So, we're going to assume that none of the units in A3 wear kevlar.

[trent 14]

So, we're going to assume that none of the units in A3 wear kevlar.

Even the civilians?