Realistic navigation difficulty setting??

[Wolfstriked 11]

What are people who like realism thinking with the way Arma3 plays out in regards to the map.I play on servers where the map shows everything even where enemies are located or the icons showing for miles thru mountains etc.....though this seems to be diminishing slowly. But I feel that the map removes the feeling of a large world where you need teamwork to just get around.When Altis arrives I wanna feel lost and not look at the map and get a view of the world that diminishes the size.I wanna feel like I am in a war to take over the island.Many things can be done to give this feeling but I feel the main thing is removal of the map icons all the way down to even the red circle that shows general location where you are.And make it an option so that servers playing on even recruit difficulty can choose realistic navigation.

No more saying you need a pickup and marking a map that all other players see but rather you ask for transport and give your coordinates.Real use of smoke to be spotted since the grids are kinda large.

Pilots must use GPS to navigate to your location and keep tabs written down of known forces locations,airbase etc..

No pop up on map of "next mission" but instead a new class of player....recon pilots that scan the map for possible locations using thermal imagery and give coordinates over chat where enemies have been spotted.

Land vehicles that have use for the commander who uses map and GPS to guide the drivers around to AO and choosing good/safe locations to fight from.

Transport of vehicles by helicopters.

APC's that can spawn troops without being deployed but rather are moving MHQ's...Mobile HQ's.;)

With such a large map you will get into a different mindset playing like this.Just needs some things changed to enable it.Difficulty option to set realistic nav,removal of the red circle to make the map just a map and having all soldiers have GPS units as default.Just some ideas that I feel would really make for a realistic combined arms feel.Am I alone in this way of thinking?

[progamer 14]

Your describing a mission idea.

[Sneakson 1]

Errr... the military have maps, mr Columbus.

Maps are essential for nagivation.

I like the red circle: it signifies that your character didn't just wake up in the middle of nowhere not knowing how he got there but has a general idea of where he is.

I wouldn't mind the option to remove it on any difficulty setting though but I definitely prefer to play with it on Elite.

I absolutely think there should be an option not to sync markers... but realistically this would be normal in 2035. Even for everyone to have a personal GPS would be normal, unless you're playing a rebel.

Recon players sound good but aren't there such players already?

Anyways: I think all Blufor/Opfor high tech soldiers should have personal GPS and marker sync -- but for insurgents and such they should definitely not have it!

Since the game is set in 2035 I would love to actually see useful high tech stuff like being able to send a video feed to your teammates and all of that.

At the same time dirty low tech is also very engaging though and should absolutely be possible, but to be honest this ISN'T ARMA2 and I think it should set itself apart from it. And anyone who doesn't like it can mod it.

[Wolfstriked 11]

LOL I never said no map just no icons as GPS AND a map is all you need to navigate and instantly tell what grid you are in.As for syncing soldiers in your squad to your GPS well its being worked on in real life.Its big and bulky laptop sized though and the squad leader carries it to better keep charge of his grunts.But we are not fighting rebel low tech enemies but rather equal tech enemies.The reason I mention this,and I am not certain on it, is that in order to synch up a GPS unit would have to send a signal out which is then traceable by the enemy.Simple passive units I think will be the norm for this reason but who knows where technology will head.I am fine with the GPS units we have now.

What I mean by recon pilots is that the server will no longer pop up "attack Kamino" etc with a big red circle around it.Recon pilots can be CAS or just transport helis but they are players that have the task of scanning the map for mobile enemy squads and enemy emplacements.When spotted they send coordinates to HQ which then pops up "the message" enemy squad at 045025 etc.And MHQ's can also change in that they stay mobile.Right now you drive a fighting vehicle to an AO and then deploy it so people can spawn from it.But its a fighting vehicle and not a spawn point and so should stay mobile and allow players to fight with it.There is also a mention of medical APC's in the field manual in A3.It says in the AMV-7 description....AMV-7 Medical is customized for a patient transport capability and is loaded with special medical equipment.And if you keep the MHQ's low they will get destroyed here and there and so not make transport helicopters obsolete.

Then there is resupply drops which could be vehicles that bring supplies to squads etc.Its will not be the instant spawn/attack/die/respawn in middle of battlefield we have now but a more realistic approach to taking over an island that doesnt need a bunch of real life friends to coordinate it,which is very important.;)

[fraczek 4]

But you are still describing just a mission difficulty idea :) (there are other missions than Domination clones...<g>)

Perhaps better take this into Arma 3 - Beta User Missions subforum request thread ? Since it seems it's more about mission mechanics than game mechanics (all that you describe would be possible to implement in a mission already without any game changes - apart from the red circle where I fully agree it should be set in server diff. settings - I think there is even a way to disallow map marker syncing - ACE does it and, and you can disable all chat channels in server settings which could disable global/side/group markers as well).

And since it pertains to one specific subtype of missions (Domination clones), I just think it better be discussed there. Although I like all your points, I like the forums tidy as well :D Although you are all free to disagree with me and that it belongs here of course!

[Wolfstriked 11]

If I was rich I would make my own server.Well now that I think about it I have all the pieces from my last build I could use that are still pretty good.Gonna look into setting up a server to see if I could make this happen....and then play alone as no on would ever stay due to boredom FPDR Haha

[twistking 204]

lol :)

[EnragedPlatypus 10]

The group that I've been playing with lately have a custom version of the AW Invade & Annex mission running where the AO's don't show (not even when a new one starts), players/enemies locations aren't shown and we orientate ourselves by using the GPS for grid reference and blue/green smokes to mark EVAC's/friendlies. When an AO is cleared CAS usually goes scouting around for the next one and whoever's in command of the team will alert the Squad leaders of the new FOB. The map still has a large circle marking your general location but it can still take a minute to get your exact bearings.

[Wolfstriked 11]

The group that I've been playing with lately have a custom version of the AW Invade & Annex mission running where the AO's don't show (not even when a new one starts), players/enemies locations aren't shown and we orientate ourselves by using the GPS for grid reference and blue/green smokes to mark EVAC's/friendlies. When an AO is cleared CAS usually goes scouting around for the next one and whoever's in command of the team will alert the Squad leaders of the new FOB. The map still has a large circle marking your general location but it can still take a minute to get your exact bearings.

That is great and I wish that it would become the norm but GPS nav is hard to do in current A3 form.A few tweaks by BI are needed.Right now you have to think with your brain of how to get to the new waypoint coordinates and it can get confusing at times and would deter many players.GPS in real life though allows you to enter in coordinates and then steers you to the grid.So it needs a way for player to type coordinates into the GPS units,some type of simple arrow on screen to guide and then mark the place on the GPS screen so when one arrives at the grid you see the mark on the GPS screen.Then just visually search for the players.

[lev 21]

Errr... the military have maps, mr Columbus.

Maps are essential for nagivation.

I like the red circle: it signifies that your character didn't just wake up in the middle of nowhere not knowing how he got there but has a general idea of where he is.

I wouldn't mind the option to remove it on any difficulty setting though but I definitely prefer to play with it on Elite.

I absolutely think there should be an option not to sync markers... but realistically this would be normal in 2035. Even for everyone to have a personal GPS would be normal, unless you're playing a rebel.

Recon players sound good but aren't there such players already?

Anyways: I think all Blufor/Opfor high tech soldiers should have personal GPS and marker sync -- but for insurgents and such they should definitely not have it!

Since the game is set in 2035 I would love to actually see useful high tech stuff like being able to send a video feed to your teammates and all of that.

At the same time dirty low tech is also very engaging though and should absolutely be possible, but to be honest this ISN'T ARMA2 and I think it should set itself apart from it. And anyone who doesn't like it can mod it.

He's not saying to get rid of maps. Please re-read his post.

Red circle should be a difficulty/server setting. Some people like to have an easier time so the red circle is good for them. For more experienced players, the circle breaks the realism for scenarios. There are potential scenarios where the player can start out lost and needs to navigate to a certain location. The red circle completely denies that possibility. To have a general idea of where you start, that should be up to the mission maker to place good insertion/you are here markers instead of using a red circle that doesn't do a good a job at this and also defeats attempts are more complex scenarios.

Marker sync and GPS should be gear related, not side related. If the gear (opfor helmet, blufor goggles, gps etc) is available then the soldier would be able to enable friendly force markers, GPS navigation, global map markers, etc. If the soldier is not using that gear, then they should not by default have the high tech navigation and coordination benefits that the gear is supposed to enable.

Although some issues should be left up to the mission maker to decide, most of the OP's points are valid in that he is striving to achieve greater realism than current gameplay mechanics that are more game-like in nature.

[dale0404 5]

I have removed the compass and map from units in a couple of my scenarios, this means when you press "M" all you get is a black screen. Also the compass doesn't show. Obviously being on Stratis atm this isn't really a problem, but once we get hold of Altis then we can really be lost!

[b101_uk 10]

But how many soldiers don’t carry compass as part of their standard kit.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

This can all be done. Especially with ACE's map tools, which I'm sure we'll see again for ArmA 3 ;D So don't worry! :)

The difficulty stuff generally needs work for MP. They really need to figure a better way to set that up for a server.

---------- Post added at 06:43 ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 ----------

But how many soldiers don’t carry compass as part of their standard kit.

Well, not all missions are situation normal, or even straight military. And it adds to the mission if you restrict navigation to a select few. I always thought it was too easy to get access to the map in ArmA. You don't have it in your hand at all times ready to peek at it for reference, you have to get at it and pull it out and find yourself on it just to check some little thing. A fireteam/squad should be able to describe the environment in front of them and give references in that context, rather than simply giving a grid reference for a rifleman shooting at your fireteam.

A system to make maps harder to get at (making it so you have to maybe grab it out of your pack/vest, play an animation to get at it, and then have that start zoomed out completely over the center of the map rather than remembering your last position would be about the only way to really simulate realistic use of maps. Right now they are easy to abuse even when they are only available to leaders, etc. A less detailed map would maybe also be good, or a way to provide a map of a particular location such as a city for a specific mission so you could get accurate maps for major missions (ie taking a city) vs less accurate maps for simple patrols, etc.

ACE also fixed the "magic marker" effect or at least I think gave the option to in that you could copy someone else's map but you had to be right near them to do it, and then you could see the markers. So if you had several fireteams/squad leaders you could discuss the plan with them, let them copy your map, and then after direct contact is lost with the squad/platoon leadership you cannot get updates without comms and manually marking yourself.

And of course vehicles are weird too, because you can get a fullscreen big full map of the island as a pilot midflight. At best you should have a map propped up somewhere that you can glance at, or preferably a co-pilot that can look at the map and go from there.

I'd freakin' love if maps were made more realistic. Using something like RTT for the map or something, making it so you can't zoom in from full island to by the foot accuracy, and making it something you have to pull out and put in your hands and then put away, having mission maps, etc.

But that's a lot to ask from Bohemia, and where it is is a decent compromise as it can be customized to get rid of a lot of the unrealistic video game functionality and make it less of a radar and just a map.

[Wolfstriked 11]

The thing is that with modern GPS navigation is not hard at all.For some odd reason though Arma 3 will ship with infantry units that must rely on the squad leader to do any type of navigation.Its a messed up system and I posted a ticket about it.You can try to balance a game so that there is a reason for the squad leader but your not thinking about the fact that many times players play with map icons enabled but if a group of players turns everything off and then manages to get split up....what will happen?You have a squad leader who is telling men to meet at 034065?Its just not thought out well and yes you can counter that its then up to the mission editor and Arma3 goes down that road of not being accessible.I say give all infantry GPS as its a future timeline and everyone will have GPS.Why people downvote this is beyond me.

@MordeaniisChaos,they could make the map so that you cant zoom in with to simulate a paper map.Then give a special GPS unit to commanders in vehicles,squad leaders etc that have the full map functionality.

[lev 21]

The thing is that with modern GPS navigation is not hard at all.For some odd reason though Arma 3 will ship with infantry units that must rely on the squad leader to do any type of navigation.Its a messed up system and I posted a ticket about it.You can try to balance a game so that there is a reason for the squad leader but your not thinking about the fact that many times players play with map icons enabled but if a group of players turns everything off and then manages to get split up....what will happen?You have a squad leader who is telling men to meet at 034065?Its just not thought out well and yes you can counter that its then up to the mission editor and Arma3 goes down that road of not being accessible.I say give all infantry GPS as its a future timeline and everyone will have GPS.Why people downvote this is beyond me.

@MordeaniisChaos,they could make the map so that you cant zoom in with to simulate a paper map.Then give a special GPS unit to commanders in vehicles,squad leaders etc that have the full map functionality.

This is a mission editing issue. Soldiers are not always ideally equipped for every situation and need to adapt to overcome them. It is not a "messed up system". It is a simulation, a sandbox environment, and it allows mission creators to do interesting things with their mission.

If a group gets split up you should meet up at a rally point specified earlier, or you should use your radios to try to communicate with each other. There is no need for some magical your-squad-leader-is-here system. All of these challenges are ones that real life operations face and there is no reason you can't do the same in Arma.

And I can give you a reason for why not all soldiers would have a gps. In non special forces units, squad members are expected to function as a squad and be with their team the whole time. It would incredibly redundant and costly to issue a gps to every single soldier when you don't need to individually navigate. Just like how long range radios are not issued to every single soldier because you have specific roles that handle that function.

[dale0404 5]

But how many soldiers don’t carry compass as part of their standard kit.

How many civilians carry compasses?

[Wolfstriked 11]

In past you had a radio man who carried around a huge ass radio on his back.Technology increased and then all soldiers carried personal radios.Future soldier kits,if you go by all the future soldier websites,all carry a GPS unit.Right now I am considering buying a watch that has GPS included.Just saying this to illustrate that GPS will be as common as a watch.Another thing I found while traveling the web is a real soldier saying how at present the squad leader would carry an advanced GPS with map capability and his squad would carry simple GPS units that had coordinates,elevation and a compass on screen.The squad leader would use the advanced GPS to navigate and set up patrols while the simple squad GPS was there just so they know where they are and also to take new waypoints.

This got me thinking that it could be a kool way to enhance the squad leader function.For some reason no one ever plays as squad leader judging by how its always an unused spot in MP.If BI wants the SL to become more important then only give the "advanced function" map in Arma to them.It could function as the advanced GPS while grunts carry the normal GPS.Could also have it to setup attacks by having the SL open up the map to click on and select a soldier by his icon and then Rmouse/Lmouse a spot on the map to send this GPS coordinate as a waypoint to that soldier.The soldiers simple GPS unit then could change to indicate the new spot.Its much better than a guy online saying "you go over there behind that house"......"that house or that house?"etc.

TL;DR....give all soldiers GPS and only give the map to squad leaders to give them more command over the battlefield while not making all soldiers lost if they lose eye contact.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wolfstriked

[lev 21]

In past you had a radio man who carried around a huge ass radio on his back.Technology increased and then all soldiers carried personal radios.Future soldier kits,if you go by all the future soldier websites,all carry a GPS unit.Right now I am considering buying a watch that has GPS included.Just saying this to illustrate that GPS will be as common as a watch.Another thing I found while traveling the web is a real soldier saying how at present the squad leader would carry an advanced GPS with map capability and his squad would carry simple GPS units that had coordinates,elevation and a compass on screen.The squad leader would use the advanced GPS to navigate and set up patrols while the simple squad GPS was there just so they know where they are and also to take new waypoints.

This got me thinking that it could be a kool way to enhance the squad leader function.For some reason no one ever plays as squad leader judging by how its always an unused spot in MP.If BI wants the SL to become more important then only give the "advanced function" map in Arma to them.It could function as the advanced GPS while grunts carry the normal GPS.Could also have it to setup attacks by having the SL open up the map to click on and select a soldier by his icon and then Rmouse/Lmouse a spot on the map to send this GPS coordinate as a waypoint to that soldier.The soldiers simple GPS unit then could change to indicate the new spot.Its much better than a guy online saying "you go over there behind that house"......"that house or that house?"etc.

TL;DR....give all soldiers GPS and only give the map to squad leaders to give them more command over the battlefield while not making all soldiers lost if they lose eye contact.

Thats true about the radio man, but that radio man carries the long range which is still true. Personal radios have short transmission range and are used for squads to communicate within themselves. There still needs to be someone with a long range radio to maintain comms with other elements of the army.

I would be fine with a advanced vs simple GPS/nav tool but this should still be left up to the mission designer.

[andersson 285]

I hate the current A3 map system. I guess it makes sense the year 2035 so ok.. But I prefer and would like to navigate with a "paper map" as in OFP, armed assault and arma2.

Mods about today, vietnam, ww2 and what not will have to make their own mapsystem, and there's already one good mod (tao folding map). I just hope that BIS will add a normal papermap too that one can use ingame.

Imo A3's map is too interactive and is always hooked up to the gps (it is the gps). I personally also despise that red circle. That should be a difficulty option and not forced on you!! If you have a gps you should be able to pinpoint your location instead of getting a big circle.... I have played so many missions where I'm lost and need to locate my position and get somewhere only using a normal map and compass since 2001. Right now in A3 that is not possible. Either you know everything or you have nothing. It's possible to be lost with a map and a compass, not with a gps..

[dale0404 5]

I personally also despise that red circle. That should be a difficulty option and not forced on you!! ..

Totally agree mate. But isn't this red circle only in the Beta?

[dragon01 902]

ArmA II had this right. On max difficulty, if you didn't have a GPS handy, you had to navigate using a compass and landmarks. Some vehicles had automatic map locator, but that was it. It did have the "instant map marker", I think this should also be made toggleable so that players would need to report the points of interest over the comms. I think that hardcore clans would welcome this.

[andersson 285]

ArmA II had this right.

And armed assault, and OFP.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Seems to me that someone feels that a bit easier is good at elite level.:(

[andersson 285]

Ok, the dreaded red circle is gone. Very good. Now if BIS could remove the button that moves the map view to players position.

It's no idea, yet, to port over my navigational training missions as long as players can press a button to know where they are...

Arma3 is in my opinion so much better than A2:AO (factions, units and so on will come, I'm talking about the engine) but some unnecessary design flaws holds it back.

[dale0404 5]

Now if BIS could remove the button that moves the map view to players position.

Fair point.