A.I needs a lot of work

[old_painless 182]

An example of AI, you are welcome to try it.

I planted a satchel charge on a road and waited under cover and out of sight of the column of enemy walking down the road. They are in safe mode. As they pass near the explosive I detonate the charge, I am still hidden from view YET they begin to fire on my position. How would they go from not seeing me to 'seeing' me after I detonated the charge?

Funny reading this, I have tried this scenario more or less in Arma 2. A forest ambush with satchel charges to take out a convoy. I hide in the forest undergrowth, well away from the road and detonate the charge, and immediately they know where I am. Before the detonation I am well hidden from them

[GottyPlays 10]

I'm really not a fan of the AI or it's control system. I feel like there is too much micromanaging for them to even accomplish basic tasks. Why can't I order the AI to flank someone just by putting my crosshair over the enemies position and telling them to do it and they find the best route with the most cover to do so, or use smoke to do it. Instead I have to tell them to move to a certain position, tell them to deploy smoke (or do it for them) and I spend far too much time trying to just get them to do anything at all instead of focusing on the things around me.

If someone ordered you to flank someone in real life, you would be like "okay" and go do it.

In arma its like 2,3 MOVE to THAT ROCK AT GRID 855947 (who the fuck would even say that in real life?), the AI will take their sweet ass time getting there. Just commanding them to do that is slow and clunky with all the keyboard presses, and the AI are slow and clunky themselves.

this.

any news by the devs? why are we even testing the game if the major bugs ane not even addressed?

[metalcraze 290]

Why can't I order the AI to flank someone just by putting my crosshair over the enemies position and telling them to do it and they find the best route with the most cover to do so, or use smoke to do it.

After combat began put your crosshair over an area you want them to move to/enemy to attack. They will flank him while using concealment and cover. And will do it rather well.

The problem comes when they try to actually engage the enemy due to their extremely slow reactions and turn speed they will seem very unresponsive. Which they are.

Still, no need to micro anything. You'll only create more problems for yourself.

How would they go from not seeing me to 'seeing' me after I detonated the charge?

It's the known issue with AI. Whenever you kill any of them they will know your position no matter where you are.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204

Edited June 27, 2013 by metalcraze

[Ekko 1]

I am wondering about the devs opinion on this little(big) ai matter(issue), I haven't heard much talk about this problem from them, but I suppose they must have said something, right? Its supposed to be a game of some sort(simulator), in which we fight with firearms and move about in a rather tactical manner, yet such strange acts of stupidity in the heat of our battle's emerge from none other than the tiresome, pathetic and foolish ai who needs to learn a lesson or two when it comes to modern combat(warfare) and its many aspects, such as taking cover and engaging enemies from good positions.

There sure is a lot of problems with them, and the more I hear and play, the worse my impression gets, they simply just aren't that fun to play against because they end up doing some weird shit, or letting you pick them of quite too easily. On the other hand they have incredibly accurate shots at any range below their limit, so its not always that they are so bad at combat, but they are the least human like ai, I have ever encountered in a modern FPS... Though the ai in most FPSes has some stupid and quite obvious scripted route with recommended cover anyway so, what can you do... but on the other hand, they still manage to seem most human like.

But hey, maybe in ArmA 5, huh!!? Then we must have some artificial "military like INTELLIGENCE" to play against! ...I am running out of fun games to play...

And I am apparently in a bad mood today.

[chrisb 196]

Funny reading this, I have tried this scenario more or less in Arma 2. A forest ambush with satchel charges to take out a convoy. I hide in the forest undergrowth, well away from the road and detonate the charge, and immediately they know where I am. Before the detonation I am well hidden from them

Certainly not the reaction I get from ai. If I'm hidden away somewhere safe after the satchel is laid/detonated, they would have to come look for me..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM8mikzIuEo

---------- Post added at 01:46 ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 ----------

I´m suprised that noone speaks about driving AI. It is still super retarded just like in Arma 2

Again not what I see in A2, they drive o.k. not in convoy, that takes a little tweaking, but on the whole they're very good..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NaFR6OJTPA

I know these are Arma 2 videos, but the only way you get very good ai, is by modding it. Thats how its going to be for Arma 3. Doesn't change, never has, modding ai gives you the ability to play the game to its fullest potential. Don't wait for ai changes to be implemented, it won't happen, it will be tweaked and thats it.

Mod it, when you can, if you can for A3, not sure myself if its going to be the same as A2, there we had the best ai mods available..

Edited June 28, 2013 by ChrisB

[sbua16 19]

Well, ChrisB, that original Video doesn't prove much, since you're behind a solid wall, and AI can't see behind solid walls. What they can see though is through a bush/tree/tall grass from quite a distance away when all I've done is triggered some C4.

You see, this is the problem we have, people are OK with posting a video of a vehicle moving along a road without crashing and saying "This is amazing, right?".. no, it's not, it's something that I'd expect to be a military sim, it's something I've seen in countless other games that are considered technically inferior to ArmA 3.

Surely we should have some change by now, but it seems the vast majority of the community are MP only (I get it, I do), so it seems that ArmA's AI's destined to be stuck in the dark ages for another 12 years. Maybe in 2025 we'll have actual platoons of squads having some semblance of coordination with each other, for now I guess I'll just wait for the High command module to come out and micro manage them myself.

[chrisb 196]

Well, ChrisB, that original Video doesn't prove much, since you're behind a solid wall, and AI can't see behind solid walls. What they can see though is through a bush/tree/tall grass from quite a distance away when all I've done is triggered some C4.

I see you've been on here since 2009, so I assume you have played for at least 3-4 years probably longer. Problem is your not playing the game to its full potential, until you mod it correctly, you never are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQhcU1v8xQQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH6AeslVRt0

In arma 3 we need modding of ai, Arma 2 ai is pretty near spot on, for me that is, for many its still in the dark ages. Mod, test, mod again test again, keep repeating it for many hours and you get results, there are hundred of different combinations to use mod wise when you select parts from those mods rather than use them all.

Should this all be in game, well yes, but its not, so its down to the player to tweak the game, most don't, they prefer to say 'it don't work', well it does, if you look for it.

Though on the other hand, modded Arma 3 ai will never be as good as modded Arma 2 ai, thats more or less guaranteed..

Edited June 28, 2013 by ChrisB

[sbua16 19]

Though on the other hand, modded Arma 3 ai will never be as good as modded Arma 2 ai, thats more or less guaranteed..

Why? Don't destroy my hopes and dreams of a SLXGL4Zeus enabled heaven of enhanced AI that actually has some semblance of cohesion and -gasp- actual use of those tactical fortresses otherwise known as buildings.

I do agree with you though. To play ArmA to it's potential.. we need to mod. It sucks, it really does, but not as much as it could've done without talented Modders. I just hope that for ArmA 5 we have someone revisit the drawing board on AI and actually offer us single-player's something that's actually a real step up in terms of quality and usability.

[kremator 1064]

So, let me get this right, using AiA, SLX group link works perfectly?

[chrisb 196]

So, let me get this right, using AiA, SLX group link works perfectly?

No..

The videos were in responce to an earlier post that said A2 had these problems, the videos are to say, only if your not modding it right.

GL4/SLX/Zeus do not run that well in A3, in-fact almost not at all if you want decent ai. Thats why I said at the bottom of the post, 'AI' in A3 will never be a good as in A2, in A2 all these mods, or should I say parts from these mods work perfect. Don't just throw all the mods together and expect it to be good, it will be a mess, you have to use a good pbo setup..;)

[fabrizio_t 58]

No..

The videos were in responce to an earlier post that said A2 had these problems, the videos are to say, only if your not modding it right.

GL4/SLX/Zeus do not run that well in A3, in-fact almost not at all if you want decent ai. Thats why I said at the bottom of the post, 'AI' in A3 will never be a good as in A2, in A2 all these mods, or should I say parts from these mods work perfect. Don't just throw all the mods together and expect it to be good, it will be a mess, you have to use a good pbo setup..;)

In my opinion ArmA3 AI works better than ArmA2 on medium / large distance (let alone accuracy).

On closer range it suffers some big detection / targeting problems.

For example:

* units not reacting to nearby enemies (just staring at them).

* units sometimes extremely slow at traversing weapons towards targets on flanks.

I saw similar problems when ArmA2:OA was released, later they were somewhat mitigated, never solved.

Regarding ArmA3, something is still broken in AI internals:for example command setSkill [Array] is broken, making units oblivious of the revealed enemies ...

[chrisb 196]

In my opinion ArmA3 AI works better than ArmA2 on medium / large distance (let alone accuracy).

On closer range it suffers some big detection / targeting problems.

For example:

* units not reacting to nearby enemies (just staring at them).

* units sometimes extremely slow at traversing weapons towards targets on flanks.

I saw similar problems when ArmA2:OA was released, later they were somewhat mitigated, never solved.

Regarding ArmA3, something is still broken in AI internals:for example command setSkill [Array] is broken, making units oblivious of the revealed enemies ...

That’s your opinion, and that’s fine. I have put a few different mod setups into A3, just the react to sound, sight etc, I can change that using parts from mods for A2, videos are on my YT showing the results, which are very good. Turn speed is a problem, but I'm sure they will sort that and the on sight issue, hearing wise we can only hope.

But A3 ai is completely inferior, in all respects, compared to A2, for me anyway. That’s possibly because I use a heavily modded ai setup in A2.

A3 is going to need ai modding, if at all possible, but I don’t think generally that the ai modding will be to the standard of the ai mods produced already for A2, the makers of which have moved on.

[fabrizio_t 58]

That’s your opinion, and that’s fine. I have put a few different mod setups into A3, just the react to sound, sight etc, I can change that using parts from mods for A2, videos are on my YT showing the results, which are very good. Turn speed is a problem, but I'm sure they will sort that and the on sight issue, hearing wise we can only hope.

But A3 ai is completely inferior, in all respects, compared to A2, for me anyway. That’s possibly because I use a heavily modded ai setup in A2.

A3 is going to need ai modding, if at all possible, but I don’t think generally that the ai modding will be to the standard of the ai mods produced already for A2, the makers of which have moved on.

Letting alone opinions, i would like to know whether you say ArmA3 AI is "completely inferior".

From what i can see (configs, .fsms, formations, scripts) ArmA3 AI = ArmA2 AI + minor tweaks.

Problem is that some things got accidentally broken within the port to the latest release.

[Masharra 10]

Letting alone opinions, i would like to know whether you say ArmA3 AI is "completely inferior".

From what i can see (configs, .fsms, formations, scripts) ArmA3 AI = ArmA2 AI + minor tweaks.

Problem is that some things got accidentally broken within the port to the latest release.

Do you do birthdays too?

[kremator 1064]

Again, you guys need to know about Fabrizio_T and AI.....he does know his stuff!

[Masharra 10]

Again, you guys need to know about Fabrizio_T and AI.....he does know his stuff!

I cant help but doubt him. Why? Let me ask.. was the "bug" where they knew about your position fixed?

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204

Any tests until that bug is fixed are hmm... prone to be flawed. Cant blame that one on the switch to beta. Maybe its fixed but who knows.

Also iirc didnt some dev say something along the lines of arma 3 ai is arma 2 beta ai with a few changed scripts or something like that?

[chrisb 196]

Letting alone opinions, i would like to know whether you say ArmA3 AI is "completely inferior"

I said, completely inferior to the ai mix I use in A2, so not necessarily A2 vanilla ai. I don’t use vanilla ai, never have really, I had the luxury of beginning to play the series more often, during Arma, there were mods available that did incredible things to the ai. I found mixing and matching mods or parts from mods made even more of a difference.

Therefore I don’t use vanilla ai, so wouldn’t really know if the ai are better or worse, but as I said, they are completely inferior to the A2 mod mix for the ai, that I use.

Similar to the sight and sound thing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ulk80H-rS4&list=PLj7LIw2iwG-GTnxT0j75IyuIoZO_yi1g1&index=66

Lets be clear I don't make the mods, that is done by talented mod makers, for which I'm grateful, unfortunately they seem to have moved on, reason why I don't think ai in A3 will be as good...

[lev 21]

One of the big problems with AI is that the squad based AI behave in a very unrealistic way. There is a lot of dissonance between what the expected behavior of an order should be and what the actual behavior is. It feels like they understand the general principles of squad based tactics but execute them in totally haphazard ways. Thus when you are part of an AI lead squad, you just want to run off without them because they feel cumbersome to be around and get in the way. When you are leading a squad it is even worse because they aren't very "smart" and require a lot of managing to get things done. However, the commands you have to manage them are not very conveniently mapped out and are not sufficient to get the job done. There is a bad mixture of the AI having enough freedom to make decisions to mess things up and not enough freedom to take initiative and get the job done.

An example of where the controls are not detailed enough are: you can either tell the AI to hold fire, or open fire. You can't say hold fire on enemy group A but open fire on enemy group B. Sure you could emulate this by first designating targets and then ordering a hold fire immediately after enemy B is taken out, but this is a lot of micromanaging for what should be a relatively simple order to give if the player were explaining to a group of real people.

For AI freedom vs following orders strictly scenario: You take a defensive position on a hill top, you order you teammates to stop and to face a certain direction. However, as soon as they see an enemy they will turn to track it instead of facing the direction you ordered them too. Now lets say your squad starts taking fire, AI will not readjust the position to get into cover or readjust to make it easier to engage enemy forces because you gave them a stop command. With real players you would say something like: "Line formation facing N covering bearing 300-060" to let your teammates know you want to have an overall facing of N but to watch outwards to the W and E slightly as well. Players if they spot an enemy would track them but would also maintain their primary focus on N unless otherwise ordered. You would also expect them to automatically move to get clear shots on the enemy or to get into cover when under fire. You just can't simply order and expect AI to do that. Hence you have this bad mixture of pseudo-intelligent AI that kinda follows orders but not really and you don't have detailed enough controls to specify exactly what you want them to do.

Ideally we would get "smart" AI that behave more or less like real people but that is something that is very hard to do and would not be reasonable to expect. But to be honest, in lieu of "smart" AI, I'd rather have really "dumb" AI that do exactly as told because then they move and react predictably and I can put them to use knowing their limitations. With the current pseudo-intelligent AI I can't really trust them with anything because sometimes they will be great and sometimes they will ignore some of the most obvious dangers and this switch from awesome to dumb can happen within seconds of each other.

[jw custom 56]

Lets be clear I don't make the mods, that is done by talented mod makers, for which I'm grateful, unfortunately they seem to have moved on, reason why I don't think ai in A3 will be as good...

Talents leave, talents return, new talents appear thats how it goes.

[sbua16 19]

I think this is a good video demonstrating that, although the AI does need a lot of work, in its current form it's definitely still a step up from what we see in ArmA 2

Notice a lot of taking cover, also a third squad seems to go up and flank them. The ArmA 2 units are simply just standing on the middle of the road, getting off as many rounds as possible, plus a couple of rockets to boot.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Sbua16

[Phantom Six 25]

I wonder, are those ARMA 2 AI unmodded, or modded?

[chrisb 196]

Un-modded stock A2 ai.

Modded and they do this when they're attacked:

Edited July 1, 2013 by ChrisB

[griffz 1]

@ChrisB: yeah , mods can even add features to these games. but your message is confusing source. i would be scare to read that if only i ididn't know arma already.

keep thing simple ,stay focused on initial content.

you know modded IA can do more than throw a bunch of smoke ;) .

ASR AI managed shell type in a tank commander sit

Edited July 1, 2013 by griffz

[tortuosit 485]

Talents leave, talents return, new talents appear thats how it goes.

Yup, this is where I also disagree with ChrisB, he's too pessimistic. Question: Can the old AI addons be ported (unPBOed first?) or won't it be that easy?

[kremator 1064]

We need the original authors to update them. If they have been PM'd and there is no response for a long time PERHAPS someone could look at them. Courtesy dictates our actions.