Fatigue effects

[-Coulum- 35]

Then why bloody add them ? Better yet why remove the option to turn it off?

Why add it over heartbeat? Better synced breathing sounds. better breathing overall

Because there needs to be something to make the player think twice about whether it is really worth it to be running. I agree that blur isn't the best, but a heart beat and some sway (which takes no more than 45 seconds to recover from while standing and is eliminated when prone anyways) is not going to convince me to stop running. Blur does by a tiny bit because is annoying.

Ideally movement speed should be decreased when tired and some sort of turn speed/negative mouse acceleration or delay between input and action should be applied when tired. But I doubt any of those will be done - so blur it is. And I think it is quite leniant compared to what I suggested above.

What's wrong with the heavy breathing by the way? Sounds ok to me.

Meh sometimes it can get pretty over the top. But honestly it has zero effect on gameplay so I doesn't really bother me.

[Masharra 10]

Well, I Didn't say I was 100% sure. But it is quite essential effect, so why leaving it out on purpose. It has been before in the series, so why not now.

And the visual effects are not silly at all. You are not the only one who has run with lots of stuff on your back.

How to simulate something that happens in your Brain when you are exhausted? Usually you play sitting comfortably in a nice chair at home. It may not represent exactly the same what your eyes see in reality, you dont see red when you are hurt either. Or dirt on your eyes, slowly fading away, when something explodes near you.

But they add visual signal that something is messed up, like sound effects like heavy breathing or "Argh, I'm hit!", or "physical" effects like not being able to move well.

What's wrong with the heavy breathing by the way? Sounds ok to me.

Way too fast, inhale is barely audible. As for the heartbeat,I cant remember before arma 2 but I do know that arma 2 does NOT have any heartbeat sounds. OK confirmed it was in ofp. Why the heck was it removed?

Ah yes I guess I just need to shut up and start accepting things

[mobile_medic 43]

I haven't had a chance to play the beta yet (travelling), but I didn't like it in alpha either.

I embrace the idea of progressive fatigue. I think the blurry screen is silly, and makes me feel as though I need glasses.

The main thing that I didn't like, though, (aside from the blurry screen) was that it just happened too quickly and too extremely. Jog 400m (no sprint) and your guy sounds like he's having the best sex of his life, and your screen is blurry as hell. These are soldiers. They should be in decent shape. And, carrying 40 lbs of gear while sustaining a steady jog is not *that* hard, especially if you are used to it. A steady jog (with gear) should be able to be maintained for up to (or, at least) 1.5km before more substantial effects (heavier breathing, increasing need to slow down, take a break, walk, etc) begin to kick in. 800m up hill seems fair for strong fatigue (even the need to transition to a fast walk at best) to kick in. But, a steady jog over relatively level terrain can (and should) be able to be maintained for up to 10 minutes without (seemingly) *extreme* fatigue. I don't mind things like head bob, or weapon sway, and exponentially increasing penalties to your aim gradually accumulating before that time. One should be able to sprint for 400m with gear, and then be heavily fatigued. My father ran a 4min 30sec mile (1.6km) in full army gear in his prime back in the 60's. He was a pretty impressive specimen in those days, and probably not representative of the average grunt.

Long story short. Blur is a bad choice (in my view) to illustrate fatigue effects, and the time it takes (with no sprint) to become apparently severely fatigued is entirely overblown.

"erg, argh, uoahahhhh, uggg, ARGGHH, UHHHH, ACKKKKK, UMPFFF, EEEEEH" :b

[liquidpinky 11]

Do you find it ok that you can still jog forever with that load?

As for "aiming shake" - just crouch and hold breath or go prone. Prone eliminates even extreme fatigue aiming shake immediately. Unlike A2.

What's the point in this "fatigue" system when you are running around with 100 kgs and the only downside is a harmless shading effect?

Better remove it at all since it has no gameplay value.

I find it acceptable that I can use the second slowest standing pace to move, yes. Maybe just see how fast you fall behind all other players who are unrestricted with lower encumbrance and you are barely faster than walking pace.

I am also aware that I will pay the price for being loaded up to the hilt and find it fair that I should pay some price for it.

As for gameplay, I have already reviewed the items I carry to reduce the effect a little and take into account the fatigue I will likely suffer while approaching an AO. So for me it has had gameplay value already.

It isn't some stupid crutch punishment like suppression and I feel that fatigue is a fair condition and warranted in A3.

It is more than a harmless shader effect, aiming is badly effected and recovery can be a long time depending on how far you push the fatigue and how encumbered you are.

If your encumbrance bar is almost full you can barely even walk a few yards at combat pace or aiming down sites before being badly effected by weapon sway.

All I ask for is blur reduced, not even removed. So I can at least stay a little situationally aware while hiding behind a rock unable to use a weapon because of sway anyway.

I will try out the prone thing you mentioned, but I am sure the blur kills any sway you have counteracted anyway. If the case is the weapons steadied while prone, then this should be fixed accordingly as it reduces the effectiveness of the fatigue condition.

More sway if required to get rid of prone not swaying at all and less blur I think would be acceptable, for me anyway.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

While I think the fatigue is too restrictive, the marathonist comparison is void because guys in short shorts and light, breathable shirts are no valid comparisons to guys in full combat gear.

[tortuosit 486]

The old story "war is uncomfortable, for the sake of reality do we need to add uncomfortable things"? Player dead->force Windows BSOD? Kill GPU?

The blur effect is annoying and the breathing is annoying. Slow down the character, but don't do annoying effects. Or better, leave it for the ACE team.

Edited June 25, 2013 by tortuosit

[-=seany=- 5]

As I made the last thread about not liking Blur effects,its pretty obvious where I stand on the issue.

Thank you for all your feedback. We are currently trying to find out where is a core of this problem. Current version of fatigue effect is in the game since 7th may update. There were some changes after that date, but it was just tweaking of duty coeficient in animations (= how much is fatigue affected by given animation) and the effect itself is the same. There were only few negative reactions on the fatigue effect before beta release, but according to the number of negative reactions after beta release it seems that some new problem appeared.

That is the reason why I would like to ask you for cooperation and help. Could you please describe precisely what is the difference between the fatigue effect in the alpha and in the beta? Are/Were you using any mod which can affect postprocesses? Were you playing with disabled or low postprocesses before the beta? Could you please take some pictures or better videos of the fatigue effect in your game?

Thank you for your help :)

I wouldn't say the number of negative reactions are any more than when I created the last thread about this. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?154557-Not-liking-the-new-Fatigue-system-Jogging-should-not-be-penalised 28 pages long!

Anyway, again, I don't like having visual post effects to simulate exhaustion. Even the "wavy" exhausting effect in Arma2 was more liveable than the intense Arma3 blur and dark screen edges. It needs to be toned down a lot or removed.

As for alternatives?

Sprinting in Arma3 has been severely limited compared to Arma2. To me this is enough. Maybe slight running speed changes for different levels of gear weight/quantity. But...you should never be forced to walk either. I would put up with blur over forced walk any day.

People should be careful when suggesting Forced walk.. really think about it. It is one of the most frustrating things in a game to be forced to a low speed on foot.

Edited June 25, 2013 by -=seany=-

[Steakslim 1]

Kinda late into this thread but I think with the fatigue effects they should scrap the current blur system, go with a forced walk and heavy vignette (maybe accompanied with DOF blur around the edges). Vision would be impaired somewhat into a tunnel vision and your guy can't freely sprint his merry way if he's kitted out in the heaviest load-out he can achieve. Bonus points if they could add a new walking/jogging animation that indicates this as well where the character staggers or even stumbles a bit when becoming exhausted (at this stage unlikely unless they can modify the existing animations to get this).

As one poster mentioned earlier the current fatigue effects don't really punish you other than visually and that really doesn't stop me from continuing to run on until i reach my destination where I can stop and recover my vision fairly quickly afterwards.

[-Coulum- 35]

Problem with a forced walk only is there is no middle ground where people are persuaded to slow down/drop gear rather than forced to. This means players will push their character farther than the character would push themselves in reality. For example in reality do you think any soldier will run until they absolutely can't run any longer while doing something like getting to an AO or being on patrol. Yet a player would have no problem doing this.

• In reality you walk the 1.5 km to your destination because there is no enemy around and you want to be well rested - there is no point in tiring yourself out even a bit, just to get to the position 10 minutes faster.
  
• In game you Sprint as much of the 1.5km as you can and run when you can't sprint simply because you can. 45 second of sway (that is nullified by prone) is hardly an convenience in comparison to the 10 minutes of boredom you avoided.
  

I think the only way to make players really conserve energy like they would in reality is to make additional fatigue effects that are slow to build up in severity, but practically permanent. Ie. you wouldn't see people sprinting to an objective with tonnes of gear on (unless absolutely neccessary) if an additional increase in sway was very slowly being added, due to fatigue, that would require 20 minutes of rest to fully recover from. People might sinstead think "maybe I should save myself until I really need to sprint, instead of just sprinting because I can".

But that of course would be considered too hardcore for some. Thus stamina conservation will never be treated as it is in reality. Blur or no blur.

[Wolfstriked 11]

No walking......instead force the players weapon to lower....make the weapon lowered speed slower and also slightly stamina boosting when on level ground or downhill.So for light players they can start running with weapon back up rather soon but heavily laden players will take a long time to build any stamina and only when not jogging up hill.This will have heavily geared characters moving slower and taking longer to get to good positions and makes the AT/sniper rifle Rambos think twice about their loadouts.

[fujix 11]

• In reality you walk the 1.5 km to your destination because there is no enemy around and you want to be well rested - there is no point in tiring yourself out even a bit, just to get to the position 10 minutes faster.
  
• In game you Sprint as much of the 1.5km as you can and run when you can't sprint simply because you can. 45 second of sway (that is nullified by prone) is hardly an convenience in comparison to the 10 minutes of boredom you avoided.
  

I think the only way to make players really conserve energy like they would in reality is to make additional fatigue effects that are slow to build up in severity, but practically permanent. Ie. you wouldn't see people sprinting to an objective with tonnes of gear on (unless absolutely neccessary) if an additional increase in sway was very slowly being added, due to fatigue, that would require 20 minutes of rest to fully recover from. People might sinstead think "maybe I should save myself until I really need to sprint, instead of just sprinting because I can".

But that of course would be considered too hardcore for some. Thus stamina conservation will never be treated as it is in reality. Blur or no blur.

In my spare time when I want to play Arma3 I want to actually do stuff. Not walk for 30 min "to reach the AO". If you want ultra realism join the army or your local airsoft club. Or just walk when you play and let the rest of us enjoy the game without "20 min rest recovery" or motion blur that makes people think they need glasses.

[liquidpinky 11]

I get the sense half of the people asking for more extreme fatigue effects don't even play fully loaded up at all so aren't even speaking from experience because their perspective on how ineffective it is tells me that is the case.

It does build up, it takes an age to recover meanwhile being an almost completely combat ineffective unit. Talking what certainly feels more like minutes than seconds.

I am one of the players who will hike from one end of the map to the other and know the full effect of fatigue during the game.

Also testing fatigue from the game's start is less effective a test as how it acts later when you have been on your feet and marching for a while, sometimes you cannot even sprint when you need it, going ADS and walking a few yards will throw you into heavy fatigue and you can no longer shoot and hit anything (lock-on missile launchers being the exception of course).

And again I will stipulate that I think fatigue is required in A3 for fairness as well as simulation, I also think they almost have it bang on already except too much blur. Being rendered combat ineffective is punishment enough, or hell, why not just have us keel over and die while giving a free kill tally or promotion to the least encumbered person in the game.

We should get a fatigue test server up just for the lolz, than pit unloaded lightweights either against or even on the same team as fully loaded units just to clearly show the differences in outright infantry combat effectiveness between the two.

You will find like in all real life jobs and situations is that the one who specialises (the lightweight) gets in, gets the job done and gets out fast and efficiently. The heavyweight boy scout who is prepared for all, just gets in and gets the job done.

If they encounter a different job on the way in or out on the other hand, boyscout gets it done and lightweight can't even get the job done at all.

Might be worthwhile to see how it effects AI (if at all) also.

[metalcraze 290]

I get the sense half of the people asking for more extreme fatigue effects don't even play fully loaded up at all so aren't even speaking from experience because their perspective on how ineffective it is tells me that is the case.

I tried this today. Put on GM6, Titan (not compact), backpack loaded with 10 mags for GM6, 4 missiles for Titan and other stuff. And a pistol with ammo.

It does build up, it takes an age to recover meanwhile being an almost completely combat ineffective unit. Talking what certainly feels more like minutes than seconds.

I was able to sprint for the whole 100m(!) and then jog forever and the barely visible fatigue effects even after running for 1 km are completely nullified by simply going prone. After jogging for so long I was able to hit 4 AIs at 600m distance with 5 bullets and any fatigue visual effects are completely gone in under 10 seconds.

That load amounts to something like 60 kgs (excluding armor). So where's this fatigue punishment?

Player must be forced to walk if he puts on too much. If he doesn't - he will never even encounter that punishment to begin with.

What we have now is completely inconsequential. People really exaggerate about the blur effect - it makes close to zero difference to visibility. Shooting a crisp brown soldier or a slightly blurred brown soldier - big difference.

And if you are running from one side of a map to the other you are doing it wrong. Call a transport.

Why add a bottomless inventory if it can be abused so badly? I thought we were promised "encumbrance". Where is it?

Edited June 25, 2013 by metalcraze

[fujix 11]

People really exaggerate about the blur effect - it makes close to zero difference to visibility.

No we dont.

[Smurf 12]

Doing some tests:

Stratis Airstrip - Blue Rifleman

Default Loadout:

Sprinting speed: 20.0072

Sprinting distance: 150m then it goes to jogging

Only MX and 1 mag (no helmet or any gear):

Sprinting speed: 20.0072

Sprinting distance: 160m then it goes to jogging.

Cheytac+Titan Loaded+4Missiles+Whatever I could fill into the gear (granades in general)

Sprinting speed: 20.0072

Sprinting distance: 85m then it goes to jogging. (fatigue reaches 0.5; speed: 15; Heavy breathing, handshakes but no problem shooting since you can hold breath and get a stand still aim; Same for all above)

Using the heaviest loadout I could jog the strip up and down (~2km), even when fatigue reaches 1 (max value) your speed doesn't change, you get somewhat heavy blur, black borders, heavy breathing. Went prone, fatigue goes back to 0 in less than 20 seconds.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Smurf

[schaefer 53]

I think one should not be able to hold his breath

when he is heavily fatigued and heavily breathing.

[fujix 11]

I think one should not be able to hold his breath

when he is heavily fatigued and heavily breathing.

Agreed. When under heavy fatigue just disable this and everything is fine. The increased crosshair sway will severely hinder you from being effective in combat.

[metalcraze 290]

How about this solution?

If for example your load is low you should be able to jog for a km without suffering much of fatigue effects (like aim shake). Still should be able to jog after. In the game that's an assault rifle + some stuff in small assault backpack.

If your load is at half the slider or above - which amounts to an AM sniper rifle and AT launcher (and half a slider IS pretty heavy) - eventually you will be forced to walk. The higher the load - the sooner it will happen.

The eventual walk will not be forced if under half slider e.g. normal or light load. Yes assault rifle + AT launcher will not be penalized with walk either (well unless you ran non-stop for like 3 kms or smth but why would you?)

And you can completely ditch the blur.

Inventory should be part of a game, not a cheat. That way you will be available to manage your inventory properly using a slider as a reference and will be able to decide if it's worth taking more load. Because right now consequences are the same whether you carry light or heavy load.

Will stuff like this be acceptable?

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Blurry vision fatigue thing is nonsense, please get rid. It's not based on reality therefore has no place in a simulation.

[fujix 11]

@ metalcraze

I think this is the first time I agree with something you posted :P

A fairly good solution. Imo remove the forced walk. Instead go with Schaefer´s suggestion to remove the ability to hold breath while under heavy fatigue and have increased crosshair sway. That way you wont be able to hit stuff very easy.

The amount of rest needed before sway penalty goes away should be decided by the distance jogged and by how much stuff you carry.

I fully agree that there should be some sort of penalty for jogging long distances and carrying a one man army load out. I just think that adding awful visual effects that make people feel bad physically (hurting eyes, nausea) and have nothing to do with real life is a really bad design choice.

[twisted 128]

How about this solution?

If for example your load is low you should be able to jog for a km without suffering much of fatigue effects (like aim shake). Still should be able to jog after. In the game that's an assault rifle + some stuff in small assault backpack.

If your load is at half the slider or above - which amounts to an AM sniper rifle and AT launcher (and half a slider IS pretty heavy) - eventually you will be forced to walk. The higher the load - the sooner it will happen.

The eventual walk will not be forced if under half slider e.g. normal or light load. Yes assault rifle + AT launcher will not be penalized with walk either (well unless you ran non-stop for like 3 kms or smth but why would you?)

And you can completely ditch the blur.

Inventory should be part of a game, not a cheat. That way you will be available to manage your inventory properly using a slider as a reference and will be able to decide if it's worth taking more load. Because right now consequences are the same whether you carry light or heavy load.

Will stuff like this be acceptable?

Other than ditching the blur I agree here.

One thing is that sprinting should always be unsustainable for long distance and this emphasized by weight. but like metacraze says jogging can go longer but is v closely based on load out weight.

[Maj. Gastovski 7]

Again, I really hope they just allow those who wish to tone it down to disable it some way via the video options. That way - you all can play the way you wish and not affect my experience that I paid for as rightfully as yourselves.

By completely canning a feature due to a complaint thread, you only create yet another potential complaint thread (which I would have no problems writing out) from the opposite perspective of players who don't mind the feature at all and those who even wish to see it expanded.

[liquidpinky 11]

Right, did some proper testing on this in a set mission. Got sick of folk being experts without trying it out. :p

So. With someone who is as maximum loaded as I could get with a PCML with 11 missiles I think I managed, Lynx and rounds topped up to max, loaded up with all gear like GPS, binos, nvg and goggles etc, I couldn't even sustain jog although it took a while.

I have added the mission to the post as I have four distinct loadouts with a set route and have clearly marked the points on the route where each loadout has the initial effect of fatigue while sprinting. Max loadout guy barely made it out of the compound and no gear naturalist wannabe was well down the hill and along the road from the starting position.

I have also discovered hills effect it, you cannot make it as far back up the hill as you made it down before fatigue starts and it is in fact getting severe even for the no gear guy by the time he returns to the starting position.

There is also a marketable difference between all the stances available and unit carry weights.

How many of you know there are differencs in prone to stand changes you can do with fatigue as well, also effected by encumbrance. Same with evasive rolls etc. All effect fatigue and have encumbrance factored in.

Any other speed than walking once fatigued at maximum load will not reduce it or at least in any time discernible while I am still alive. Walking it did eventually clear up after a long time. Sitting is always good to recover.

http://www.mediafire.com/?rmt091796z52iu2

The mission goes in your profile missions and YOUR_PROFILE_NAME_GOES_HERE.vars.Arma3Profile for VAS ammobox goes in same place as your profile cfg.

Make a backup copy of your existing vars if you already use VAS ammobox and rename the one I have supplied as your profile name.

This should allow you to use the four distinct classes I created for the test, well three really as one is a default unit type.

Anyone is welcome to try and get the encumbrance bar maxed, may be a backpack or vest that holds more. If not I have no idea what needs to be done to fill it.

The test just involved loading the gear, turning around to face the green arrows and just sprinting down the trail following the arrows. No stance or combat pace changes, purely going straight to sprint.

Best use third person as you can see when the fatigue starts with weapon position changing.

Yes, that cyan marker is only as far as fullupguy makes it before first signs of fatigue (inability to sprint) kick in.

Try different stances with each loadout and even evasive rolls and just going from prone to standing repeatedly.

Metalcraze is indeed correct that prone pretty much alleviates the sway although not instantly but fast enough as no need to care, this needs fixed for sure.

I think the suggestion of maybe reducing or removing breath holding to steady aim while fatigued could be the best solution here. The heavier the weapon the more the sway as well.

[Smurf 12]

That is why I hate when some post end being the final one at a page :p

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?157425-Beta-fatigue-effects&p=2423670&viewfull=1#post2423670

Someone even made a table with the fatigue rate in each stance and going up\down hill a while ago.

Anyway, weight not only should affect your breath but also your speed and fatigue recovery, this last one should take longer if you are exahusted for example (fatigue = 1).

[liquidpinky 11]

That is why I hate when some post end being the final one at a page :p

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?157425-Beta-fatigue-effects&p=2423670&viewfull=1#post2423670

Someone even made a table with the fatigue rate in each stance and going up\down hill a while ago.

Anyway, weight not only should affect your breath but also your speed and fatigue recovery, this last one should take longer if you are exahusted for example (fatigue = 1).

Lol, indeed. Thanks Smurf.

I wondered if someone would do actual monitoring of the variables and get a better idea. Although you didn't check what was the heaviest equipment though. Lynx and PCML massively outweigh the M320 and Large Titan. :P