helicopters to overpowered with this radar?

[byku 13]

Indeed I agree personally that the radar is a bit overkill and tab mechanism have to go. If we would have to create something easy, much less sophisticated that rl system, i'm all for something like this:

- no friend-or-foe recognition by the radar(and THAT would be a great thing)

- much lower refresh rate

- the need of "clicking" on the target to lock by the gunner

- removing of "TAB"(from EVERYTHING)

and of course remove radar from AH-9 :P.... that's silly :P, and from some transport choppers, but leave ir warnings!

I suppose it would be easy to implement by the devs... at least "easier".... and it would be much more challenging for pilots(need to cooperate with ground forces about friendlies location).

If you think it's a good idea:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10133

please vote... if bad :P.. downvote.

Btw. about IR warnings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Approach_Warning . They would have to remove the "locking" warning by ir rockets, and GIVE us manual control over flares(like "automatic", "burst", "fully manual"), and maybe improve a bit their strength, and for the love of god, when we use flares they need to interrupt the locking mechanism.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Byku

[Smurf 12]

Also, SACLOS weapons working as they should and things like that.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Listen one last time: It doesn´t matter if this technology will exist because there will be counter technologies to reestablish the fog of war. No Helicopter will be able to fly around with an active 360° radar without beeing shot down.

And don´t come up with satellites! Unless I can place one in the Editor they are simply non existent in Arma. Period! (And Satellites can be shot down as well, yeah, that is already possible)

How many times have I mentioned Link 16 in this thread? 3 or 4 times now?

Here is a picture to illustrate it for those that need it:

Ooooh look at that - no radar required! Cool isnt it? Available on the current production AH64 Apache-E

If you remove it totally from the aircraft - that would not be an accurate simulation of existing or future reality - what you really are looking for is an off switch for it? For those rare occasions when your helicopter is the last one left and all other ships, aircraft and satellites have been shot down? Sounds a bit odd?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Minoza 11]

Sorry but I don't see any of those in Arma 3 Alpha/Beta, only the radar part.

[Smurf 12]

Remember when A3 was annunced, there was even talks about transponders, on\off IFF and all?

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Sorry but I don't see any of those in Arma 3 Alpha/Beta, only the radar part.

It is described as "Top down Radar" but I always assumed this was an odd description for a Link-16 type data exchange system? Just WTF is top down radar in the 1st place - never heard of it? You sure it isn't another of those Czech misnomers, the games always had them?

[twistking 204]

How many times have I mentioned Link 16 in this thread? 3 or 4 times now?

don't be stupid. yes, things like link16 would give you very good awareness. nobody has a problem with a high-tech helicopter getting positions of enemys via datalink.

but you cannot use such a system to hit a tank with atgm. link 16 is about awareness, tactics, intel and perhaps anti-air and anti-ship missiles.

or in other words: just because you know, that there is an enemy, doesn't mean you can simply shoot a missile on him. please note, that there are fundamental differences in targeting flying objects and ground objects.

please read about SMCLOS, SACLOS, LOSBR

Edited June 24, 2013 by twistking

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

don't be stupid. yes, things like link16 would give you very good awareness. nobody has a problem with a high-tech helicopter getting positions of enemys via datalink.

but you cannot use such a system to hit a tank with atgm. link 16 is about awareness, tactics, intel and perhaps anti-air and anti-ship missiles.

So do what I said - keep the display and get rid of the tab locking from it? Or the tab puts a waypoint above that position on the HUD and you have to use something else to identify the target and get a lock? I know Link-16 can't be used to lock targets - that is the bit that I agree is wrong - the information display is ok though? In reality they use the positioning data from link 16 to point radar/optics in the correct direction to get a final lock.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[twistking 204]

Remember when A3 was annunced, there was even talks about transponders, on\off IFF and all?

i'm still hoping for it. i mean, beta has just started. this isn't a major engine-change. it's some coding, some nice gui, some testing, some balancing. could still be done at this point:)

---------- Post added at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

So do what I said - keep the display and get rid of the tab locking from it? Or the tab puts a waypoint above that position on the HUD and you have to use something else to identify the target and get a lock? I know Link-16 can't be used to lock targets - that is the bit that I agree is wrong - the information display is ok though?

i would not have a problem with the information display/radar/datalink. the main point is to make target acquisition and targeting more challenging. the datalink/radar could also be tied to difficulty settings or made dependent to uav or something.

but that are little details. in the end the devs will decide. our job is to make clear, that we want and need a more sophisticated solution and at least basic simulation of the different missile guidance systems. ace-mod did this quite decently, but sadly the AI could not handle it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by twistking

[Scoggs 1]

[/color]

i would not have a problem with the information display/radar/datalink. the main point is to make target acquisition and targeting more challenging. the datalink/radar could also be tied to difficulty settings or made dependent to uav or something.

Targeting with the A-10 is prettyeasy. Keep in mind that the missile systems we are talking about currently can engage at 5+ MILES. Much futher out than what you can see in A3. So if anything we need less simulation and more arcade version of the weapon systems.

Also we need to get rid of that raday thingy. But an RWR would be nice.

Oh and you don't get a warning when a IR missile has a lock. Only the launch signature.

[azz_er 10]

Listen one last time: It doesn´t matter if this technology will exist because there will be counter technologies to reestablish the fog of war. No Helicopter will be able to fly around with an active 360° radar without beeing shot down.

And don´t come up with satellites! Unless I can place one in the Editor they are simply non existent in Arma. Period! (And Satellites can be shot down as well, yeah, that is already possible)

Well that depends who you're fighting against..

[nodunit 397]

Pretty sure the Apaches radar system is similar to ones in ArmA 3. They can see everything, prioritise targets and be ready to fire in seconds and send the data to any other Apaches so its not that unrealistic...

The Longbow CAN detect targets yes but in a 90 or less degree arc, it prioritizes based on threat assumption and supposedly crosses informations with other systems but at the most basic it identifies the vehicle type rather than the vehicle itself. IE it's not going to distinguish the difference between a T-90 and a T-72, it just sees "tracked". If the radar is not turned in tan arc to face these targets then they will not be displayed, the 360 arc ONLY applies in air mode.

The radar is also ON/OFF for a reason, you can reveal yourself to active radar scanning and other anti air equipment if you are careless with the operation, it would be similar to a submarine pinging another which is sweeping with sonar.

That said, there is no reason for the UH-80 and 9 series to have a radar, this is a simple alteration of a config file.

Edited June 24, 2013 by NodUnit

[mr burns 131]

;2422053']Sadly BI doesnt care. The CIT has many great' date=' small, specific suggestions - A3 progress: zero.[/quote']

Can only +1 this.

Look at one genius modders work and you know they´ve been slacking off:

qXTZC1Xs7nU

[On_Sabbatical 11]

;2422053']Sadly BI doesnt care. The CIT has many great' date=' small, specific suggestions - A3 progress: zero.[/quote']

Just do like me, and give up already ^^

People anyway are not interested in realism and stuff like this ... give them a nice scope and cool graphics,they won't care about the rest :D

I just want to be able to disable Apache's dish with a gun to make it useless ... but it won 't happen a day i guess because the anti torque will be disabled instead ... lol !

I'm just happy because we all agree that TAB lock should be removed ... time for BIS now to get this !

Edited June 25, 2013 by On_Sabbatical

[ZoneTrooper 10]

It is as unrealistic as it can be, no helicopter has a magic "I see everything around me" radar

Wrong modern choppers even get signals if a infrared or heat seeking rocket is coming,so that you easily drop out your flares until the rocket hits the vehicle.And please do you realy wanna tell me the USA or Russia spend 120 Million for a Appache or more and then they dont have lock on detection on these systems? please if you would be a chopper developer your chopper would be the best i guess,without radar and no lock on safty right?

[progamer 14]

Targeting with the A-10 is prettyeasy. Keep in mind that the missile systems we are talking about currently can engage at 5+ MILES. Much futher out than what you can see in A3. So if anything we need less simulation and more arcade version of the weapon systems.

Also we need to get rid of that raday thingy. But an RWR would be nice.

Oh and you don't get a warning when a IR missile has a lock. Only the launch signature.

So you saying that we should just make the game more Arcadish rather than realizing there are multiple types of weapons that you can use on vehicles in real life? Five miles is not the best for stratis but would be nice for Atlis, though if you don't like the armament why not change that rather than making the game worse?

If you don't like the radar then script it out yourself, it is there due to the fact you are not the only person in existence on your side, satellite can't be added ingame because then we have to create the curvature of the earth for them to orbit, because of engine limitations we simulate they exist. Should we have to have water as individual molecule a boat interacts with to allow floating? No but we simulate that the molecules do exist by letting the boat float rather than move exactly like a car.

---------- Post added at 04:26 ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 ----------

So you saying that we should just make the game more Arcadish rather than realizing there are multiple types of weapons that you can use on vehicles in real life? Five miles is not the best for stratis but would be nice for Atlis, though if you don't like the armament why not change that rather than making the game worse?

If you don't like the radar then script it out yourself, it is there due to the fact you are not the only person in existence on your side, satellite can't be added ingame because then we have to create the curvature of the earth for them to orbit, because of engine limitations we simulate they exist. Should we have to have water as individual molecule a boat interacts with to allow floating? No but we simulate that the molecules do exist by letting the boat float rather than move exactly like a car.

When you start trying to artificially balance the game and make it less realistic so that its more fun to "some people" you risk loosing a huge audience of players who found Arma as a realistic combined arms sim, without the annoying artificial balance like battlefield 3 had. I personally used to play games like bf3 and cod but I got so fed up with the constant idea of "balance" and noobs use these weapons ect... That I after playing dayz a bit, loaded up the vanilla game (soon after used ace and acre a bit) and found my new favourite series. I can tell you I'm not the first to do this and not the last one to do this. Balance in this simulator is about the AI and real world realistic systems that counter all those other real world realistic systems or as the devs called it: "Natural Balance" which is the reason then military don't just use tanks or just use aircraft or just use infantry to fight battles.

Edited June 25, 2013 by ProGamer

[Tonci87 163]

How many times have I mentioned Link 16 in this thread? 3 or 4 times now?

Here is a picture to illustrate it for those that need it:

http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_Link-16_Scenario_lg.jpg

Ooooh look at that - no radar required! Cool isnt it? Available on the current production AH64 Apache-E

If you remove it totally from the aircraft - that would not be an accurate simulation of existing or future reality - what you really are looking for is an off switch for it? For those rare occasions when your helicopter is the last one left and all other ships, aircraft and satellites have been shot down? Sounds a bit odd?

OK, one more time. Do you see that giant AWACS Airplane on that picture? That Airplane can use it´s radar because it is generally behind the front. It can detect objects and transfer this data via the Link 16 System to other units. But unless we get an AWACS in Arma, this technology is simply non existant in this game. We don´t have any radar systems to play with, so you have to assume that none of these is available in your Mission. Therefore you can´t make use of a Link 16 System.

I wouldn´t mind if we got some kind of Data link so that you can report the last known position of enemies to friendly forces, but I guess you can compensate that with map markers.

And even if you get information via such a system you still need to manually identify and confirm the target before shooting it.

Wrong modern choppers even get signals if a infrared or heat seeking rocket is coming,so that you easily drop out your flares until the rocket hits the vehicle.And please do you realy wanna tell me the USA or Russia spend 120 Million for a Appache or more and then they dont have lock on detection on these systems? please if you would be a chopper developer your chopper would be the best i guess,without radar and no lock on safty right?

FPDR

Modern helicopters have sensors that register the heat signature of missile launches (again no magic radar). Some Helicopters also have RWRs that tell you if someone is illuminating you with radar and Systems that warn you if you are beeing lased. The problem is that if your warning systems detects a missile launch you have about one second to launch counter meassures (in the worst case with launched MANPADS) and you can´t be sure that those countermeassures will be effective. Flares are not a magic "no one can hit me" device.

In other words you will try to avoid such a situation. That is why so expensive helicopters usually stay as far away from the enemy as possible.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

OK, one more time. Do you see that giant AWACS Airplane on that picture? That Airplane can use it´s radar because it is generally behind the front. It can detect objects and transfer this data via the Link 16 System to other units. But unless we get an AWACS in Arma, this technology is simply non existant in this game. We don´t have any radar systems to play with, so you have to assume that none of these is available in your Mission. Therefore you can´t make use of a Link 16 System.

I wouldn´t mind if we got some kind of Data link so that you can report the last known position of enemies to friendly forces, but I guess you can compensate that with map markers.

Arma 3 is described as the genre of "Military Simulation". The creation of a side and an HQ infers that more exists in the game than the single unit you place on the map. If modern avionics and systems are not going to be simulated then what is the point of 2035? They may as well just cancel A3 and develop a WW2 FPS shooter as that is what you seem to want?

What is the point of having a comanche with it's suit of sensors and data links (it was also to be fitted with longbow radar) and then limiting the player to having to find the enemy with an eyeball? It's preposterous nonsense, I agree that the tab cycling of targets from the display is far too easy and should be changed (eg stationary targets should be more difficult to find) but removing everything else would just be wrong and people interested in simulation would drop this game and go and play something else.

If you want WW2 type conditions for balanced gameplay in a certain mission feel free to mod the avionics out or petition BIS for an option to turn them off. Removing them from the whole game would not make sense in 2035.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Qosmius 10]

mattar, dont you think counter technology would have been in place for a 2035 game too? im sure it exists some radar jamming technology even today. how come that is not simulated?

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Jamming doesn't work all the time and is very difficult if not impossible to sustain effectively against modern AESA radar, which is also difficult to detect in the first place as it changes frequency all the time. Removing capabilities to make war 'fair' is not rational but I'm not surprised it's being suggested. Technology is a force multiplier which is why they use it. Tanks, planes and helicopters are supposed to kill lots of people. You actually have to know and understand the tech before you wish it away - you are in danger of moving further from simulation to complete fantasy.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Qosmius 10]

i do not get it why you are so overprotective for this radar ingame..it clearly exists jamming devices that work in real life, and i believe jamming technology also develop while radar technology is too.

f-22? supposed to be a stealth aircraft. im sure they dropped all the stealth ideas in 20 years from now because they have to good radar systems

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

hey guys, watch this vid....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2IqZhonKzU

problem solved :P

[azz_er 10]

OK, one more time. Do you see that giant AWACS Airplane on that picture? That Airplane can use it´s radar because it is generally behind the front. It can detect objects and transfer this data via the Link 16 System to other units. But unless we get an AWACS in Arma, this technology is simply non existant in this game. We don´t have any radar systems to play with, so you have to assume that none of these is available in your Mission. Therefore you can´t make use of a Link 16 System.

I wouldn´t mind if we got some kind of Data link so that you can report the last known position of enemies to friendly forces, but I guess you can compensate that with map markers.

And even if you get information via such a system you still need to manually identify and confirm the target before shooting it.

FPDR

Modern helicopters have sensors that register the heat signature of missile launches (again no magic radar). Some Helicopters also have RWRs that tell you if someone is illuminating you with radar and Systems that warn you if you are beeing lased. The problem is that if your warning systems detects a missile launch you have about one second to launch counter meassures (in the worst case with launched MANPADS) and you can´t be sure that those countermeassures will be effective. Flares are not a magic "no one can hit me" device.

In other words you will try to avoid such a situation. That is why so expensive helicopters usually stay as far away from the enemy as possible.

In the case of the Apache, it launches the appropriate counter measures automatically depending on the incoming weapon, whether it be radar tracking or heat seeking etc.

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah it does, doesn´t mean that the missile won´t hit, anyway what has this to do with the magic radar discussion?

[Qosmius 10]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2IqZhonKzU

put this on every vehicle in game and i think we balanced out the radar and tab locking from helis and manpads :)

[ZoneTrooper 10]

Yeah it does, doesn´t mean that the missile won´t hit, anyway what has this to do with the magic radar discussion?

Did you gues ever mind that this radar that you see there is just a help? the pilot can look out of the vehicle and see whats infront of him and you see it on the radar.And even if they would delete this cry radar like you call it nothing would change,because the gunner is still able to use thermal vision with that he controlls the entire island of stratis.Even before someone can lock on,the gunner would have eliminate the enemy multiple times.In wasteland we try it out,everyone had enough money to buy titan AA rockets and tryed to fire at us no CHANCE we raped the server for 30 minutes without getting shot and without using your cry radar everything was done by the gunner he just destroyed the entire island with his 1000 shot gun.