Snipers need extra Realism tweaks

[daveallen10 35]

I have spent a while watching videos of the new snipers on Youtube and played around briefly with them in the Alpha--and I am again disappointed that they seem much easier to use, thus far. Arma 3 is a simulator, and I think that it should differentiate from other shooters by focusing on realism instead of just "balance". In real life, only a small number of soldiers are sharpshooters--because snipers and other long-range weapons are difficult to use. However, if someone takes the time to learn them, they can have a devestating effect. Here are a few things I think should be improved for realism.

1) Bipods should be included on all snipers, and should be deployable. A sniper without a deployed bipod should be very very hard to aim at long-range and should sway considerably. The use of a bipod by the player would add greater stability, but would increase set-up time and minimize the aim radius. This is natural, realistic balancing.

2) When standing or even crouching, long-range shots should be virtually impossible. Sniper rifles are usually bulky, heavy weapons and cannot be aimed accurately without ground deployment. This would naturally balance these weapons vs. regular rifles in the average firefight.

3) Weapon recoil should be much higher than it currently is. If bipods could be deployed, this might mitigate this problem to an extent.

4) Wind Calculation for all weapons. I know that most people don't like this idea, but I think it would add a lot to the game--the current weather and windspeed/direction should effect bullets. This is one of the things that makes snipers in real life so good at their job--they have learned how to calculation in their heads the trajectory of a bullet. It also makes it so players would need to practice and build up experience to use these weapons effectively.

What are your thoughts?

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Edited June 8, 2013 by Daveallen10

[Beagle 684]

Any rifle, sniper or not, bipod or not, does not sway at all when fired from a proper prone position.

[daveallen10 35]

Any rifle, sniper or not, bipod or not, does not sway at all when fired from a proper prone position.

Sway (in a game) represents the constant, minute displacements of the weapon whenever it comes in contact with a human being because of our involuntary muscle movements. If you were simply looking through the scope without touching the weapon, there would be no sway, but the second the but of the gun touches your shoulder or your finger touches the trigger, there will be some kind of minor movement, except for brief periods of time. This would be particularly true if you were fine-tuning the aim of the weapon.

Secondly, and more to the point--Arma 3 has no way of currently representing "proper prone position" with a rifle balanced on some sort of object or mount (including bi-pods). When you go prone, it automatically calculates and assumes you are in proper position with your rifle mounted or on a bipod--even though this is not actually shown in the game and causes no limitations to your range of movement--as it would in real life. This is the problem.

[EvenLease 11]

Not like its not possible.

But I do agree Sniper Rifles need to be harder to use, wind, distance, everything.

[gpha5e 1]

come oooon, the guy's point is that it could be a better idea balance-wise, not like it's impossible or smth, gosh! and i agree on that, he was talking about natural balance in the game, but still BALANCE, he wasn't pointing out that smth isn't possible at all, good post OP

[progamer 14]

A script that you can add to make bullets affected by wind does exist, you just have to add it to your server or play on one with it installed. Here it is: http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=20297

[EDcase 87]

I hope wind is integrated to projectile physics. I don't want to have loads of scripts fixing things...

Since these anti-material rifles are so large and heavy they should have more mass so its harder/slower to turn around with them. ie. turn speed of characters holding it should be a bit slower. Also turning when prone should be much slower.

In fact all movement when holding one should be slower.

[oxmox 73]

In real life, only a small number of soldiers are sharpshooters--because snipers and other long-range weapons are difficult to use. However, if someone takes the time to learn them, they can have a devestating effect.

This is a general problem with the Arma series and maybe with some mods, I always did hope they adjust this for the better.

In Arma 2:

Every G.I. Joe did run around with a great rifle and the most expensive ATG systems, which normally carry 2-3 men. Your highly trained snipers can fly planes, helicopters and drive tanks. Not saying that you need a driver class like on some servers for Iron Front Liberation 1944, but if almost everyone runs around like Rambo the gameplay is just flawed and does not contribute to a great gameplay. A fixed class system with a certain role for each player is just superior for quality gameplay and I hope modders will think about it.

I did join some CTI Arma 3 servers and what people do release, mods who simplify the game instead of giving us players a more exciting challenge. Some offer even a revive script so everyone can revive someone and in the next shop you can buy every weapon you want for your character......and of course you can buy multiple AI with the same equipment. A big issue in Arma 2 and in this case the CTI gameplay mod, spawning a whole group up to 12 units of javelins or whatever, even with very low cost for the players, to make sure a challenging gameplay isnt possible and the balance is gone.

Edited June 8, 2013 by oxmox

[EDcase 87]

Yes, carrying capacity should be more restricted. If you have a huge anti-material rifle you should not be able to carry a rocket launcher and rockets as well.

Limiting equipment carrying ability a bit and making classes affect what can be carried or affecting how gear is used will make players depend on each other more. (Not saying that classes are so distinct like other games but a little more than they are now)

Of course this can be done by the mission maker so I guess there just aren't any 'good' missions yet.

Edited June 8, 2013 by EDcase

[byku 13]

Instead of making ARTIFICIAL limitations, make weight penalties more severe.

[chortles 263]

Yes, carrying capacity should be more restricted. If you have a huge anti-material rifle you should not be able to carry a rocket launcher and rockets as well.

Zeloran posted on a feedback ticket in late May that the devs could have fatigue increase faster if carrying such a loadout (with corresponding negative effects) and that "This solution is currently being examined" at that time, but he also said that "We cannot restrict player of wearing such equipment" in the sense of outright preventing it, so it sounds like Zeloran's answer was consistent with Byku's answer.

[EDcase 87]

Instead of making ARTIFICIAL limitations, make weight penalties more severe.

Yes, thats part of it but what about

Only Engineers being trained to use explosives. (Maybe only they can lay large mines, arm a satchel or put a timer on... etc)

Only medics can heal and medpacks just stop bleeding but don't heal completely.

Maybe Snipers are trained to hold breath longer but they turn slower with heavy rifles (50cal/anti-material not normal sniper rifles)

Some things to make the class choice a little distinct without going too far.

Zeloran posted on a feedback ticket in late May that the devs could have fatigue increase faster if carrying such a loadout (with corresponding negative effects) and that "This solution is currently being examined" at that time, but he also said that "We cannot restrict player of wearing such equipment" in the sense of outright preventing it.

True, it shouldn't be impossible to carry everything to be a one man army but the weight should make it almost pointless. ie, forget sprint and only run for a few metres.

Currently I think an infantryman with standard loadout gets out of breath a little too fast.

Weight of things like anti-material rifles and rocket launchers is too low. They should affect 'stamina' quite a lot.

Edited June 8, 2013 by EDcase

[-Gews- 1]

1. No "artificial" limitations or classes...

2. All objects should have weight, and there should be a stamina system. This would add a completely new dimension to gameplay and loadouts. A reason to choose 5.56 instead of 7.62, etc.

3. Bullets should be affected by wind. ArmA is a simulator - we shouldn't need to wait for ACE. Even DayZ is considering adding their own wind drift mod.

I also agree with the bipod comments.

[EDcase 87]

1. No "artificial" limitations or classes...

2. All objects should have weight, and there should be a stamina system. This would add a completely new dimension to gameplay and loadouts. A reason to choose 5.56 instead of 7.62, etc.

3. Bullets should be affected by wind. ArmA is a simulator - we shouldn't need to wait for ACE. Even DayZ is considering adding their own wind drift mod.

I also agree with the bipod comments.

1. Whats the point of them then? In reality these soldiers are trained in different aspects of warfare. May as well just have SOLDIER then

2. They DO have weight and there IS a stamina system but it doesn't affect the player enough at the moment. (have u played the Alpha!?!?!)

3. Agreed

Bipods are on the agenda

What do you guys think about more mass for weapons like rocket launchers and heavy rifles (50cal/anti-material) so you turn a little slower?

Edited June 8, 2013 by EDcase

[oxmox 73]

Zeloran posted on a feedback ticket in late May that the devs could have fatigue increase faster if carrying such a loadout (with corresponding negative effects) and that "This solution is currently being examined" at that time, but he also said that "We cannot restrict player of wearing such equipment" in the sense of outright preventing it, so it sounds like Zeloran's answer was consistent with Byku's answer.

This was discussed years ago already and many people did agree that this is an issue, you would find older threads about it in this forum. I dont see a restriction here if a player can actually choose a role out of many. The limited weight a soldier can carry should be logical. If this allegedly restricts players at least implement it so servers/players can switch it on or off.

There has to be reasons why not a long time ago, Arma, a game with great team vs team gameplay changed more into a roleplaying platform or just coop gameplay. Maybe they should reconsider their thoughts.

Edited June 8, 2013 by oxmox

[daveallen10 35]

It seems like a lot of us are on the same page here.

FEEDBACK TRACKER ISSUE LINK ADDED! VOTE UP!

[chortles 263]

Some things to make the class choice a little distinct without going too far.

Already too far, it reminds me of Battlefield. :p And I wouldn't be surprised if the lack(s) of restrictions are because BI is accounting for missions that don't work according to your hypothetical class system... and frankly, "what's the point of them then?" As far as I'm concerned, the Editor unit classes are just default pre-made loadouts and I'm fine-and-cool with that, though I would be fine with "just have SOLDIER" too.

This was discussed years ago already and many people did agree that this is an issue, you would find older threads about it in this forum. I dont see a restriction here if a player can actually choose a role out of many. The limited weight a soldier can carry should be logical. If this allegedly restricts players at least implement it so servers/players can switch it on or off.

The key point I took out of Zeloran's answer was that he was saying of the devs, "we are not going to prevent such a loadout, only tweak things to disincentivize against it."

There has to be reasons why not a long time ago, Arma, a game with great team vs team gameplay changed more into a roleplaying platform or just coop gameplay. Maybe they should reconsider their thoughts.

Who's supposed to reconsider what?

[brynjard 2]

I have spent a while watching videos of the new snipers on Youtube and played around briefly with them in the Alpha--and I am again disappointed that they seem much easier to use, thus far. Arma 3 is a simulator, and I think that it should differentiate from other shooters by focusing on realism instead of just "balance". In real life, only a small number of soldiers are sharpshooters--because snipers and other long-range weapons are difficult to use. However, if someone takes the time to learn them, they can have a devestating effect. Here are a few things I think should be improved for realism.

1) Bipods should be included on all snipers, and should be deployable. A sniper without a deployed bipod should be very very hard to aim at long-range and should sway considerably. The use of a bipod by the player would add greater stability, but would increase set-up time and minimize the aim radius. This is natural, realistic balancing.

2) When standing or even crouching, long-range shots should be virtually impossible. Sniper rifles are usually bulky, heavy weapons and cannot be aimed accurately without ground deployment. This would naturally balance these weapons vs. regular rifles in the average firefight.

3) Weapon recoil should be much higher than it currently is. If bipods could be deployed, this might mitigate this problem to an extent.

4) Wind Calculation for all weapons. I know that most people don't like this idea, but I think it would add a lot to the game--the current weather and windspeed/direction should effect bullets. This is one of the things that makes snipers in real life so good at their job--they have learned how to calculation in their heads the trajectory of a bullet. It also makes it so players would need to practice and build up experience to use these weapons effectively.

What are your thoughts?

FEEDBACK TRACKER ISSUE LINK!

I really support this one. Especially the part with use of bipods and make snipers deploy these cause of the difficult aiming on long range shoots. It would stop them from infiltrating an enemy area with the biggest sniper rifle. It would also help avoiding Arma 3 being a big sniper party with camping allover the map.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Make weapon weight have its own stamina rate so that even when standing or crouching and the weapon is shouldered you start to drain stamina.Of course its irrelevant when prone.Stamina right now is governed by the players movement speed with a weapons weight not really?:rolleyes: mattering.Have a sniper rifle shouldered and you should start huffing even when standing still(not full on fatigue) and so medium to long range shots are very hard to do.Sway is a bitch and should come into play more with heavier weapons when not prone.

With that said I think the sway we have now is fine for snipers but really feel that rifles and carbines be made a little easier when crouched/standing in regards to sway.Recoil is bad when in those two stances but getting off one shot at a time should be more easier IMO than the sway fest it is in Arma3 right now.Rifles and carbines are after all not 38 pound weapons like the Lynx GM-6 but rather weigh in range of about 7 pounds.

LMG's/marksman rifles,while weighing on average say 10 pounds,you would think are not much different than rifles but the weight distribution is a factor here.With longer barrels and bipods the COG moves and causes a bit more fatigue than rifles.How much should just be tweaked till it feels right.

[samco 1]

This : guided bullet sniper rifles http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23571-selfaiming-rifle-turns-novices-into-expert-snipers.html

now that is too easy , removing all the fun from sniping , but totally realistic .

Bipods and Weapon resting should be top-priority , there is a mod for that , but this feature should come in vanilla

[becubed 24]

This : guided bullet sniper rifles

It's not a guided bullet. It lets you designate a point on the target and the rifle will then fire when you next point it at the location that will cause the bullet to hit.

Here is an actual review of it.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/...powered-rifle/

[samco 1]

okay but here it is , only prototype thought http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/31/self-guided-bullet-could-strike-laser-designated-targets-from-a-mile-away/

[Superman0023 10]

I have spent a while watching videos of the new snipers on Youtube and played around briefly with them in the Alpha--and I am again disappointed that they seem much easier to use, thus far. Arma 3 is a simulator, and I think that it should differentiate from other shooters by focusing on realism instead of just "balance". In real life, only a small number of soldiers are sharpshooters--because snipers and other long-range weapons are difficult to use. However, if someone takes the time to learn them, they can have a devestating effect. Here are a few things I think should be improved for realism.

I agree with this 100% sniping shouldn't just be some walk in the park class. sniping is very difficult!

1.)Bipods should be included on all snipers

Ok, you sort of lost me here...:icon_ohmygod: I agree a rifle systems should have the capability to equipt a bi-pod but it should never be mandatory.

2) When standing or even crouching, long-range shots should be virtually impossible. Sniper rifles are usually bulky, heavy weapons and cannot be aimed accurately without ground deployment. This would naturally balance these weapons vs. regular rifles in the average firefight.

Additional recoil... yes! Most long ranger weapon systems uses .308 caliber and up; But, to say near imposible to engage accuratly while crouched or standing is quite a reach. one of the most accurate and stable firing positions is sitting Indian style (fyi). In my opinion I think Battlefields 3 did it very accurately by allowing bi-pods to be deployed just about everywhere (ex. rocks, hoods of vehicles, low hanging tree branches when standing, highway dividers, window ledges, ect.)

4) Wind Calculation for all weapons. I know that most people don't like this idea, but I think it would add a lot to the game--the current weather and windspeed/direction should effect bullets.

I love this!!!!!!!! Seperate the MEN from the boys. any one who plays this game as a true sniper should love this. The concept of "wind" effecting point of aim point of impact adds another rinkle of difficulty which reduces the amount of people who will just equipt a long range system without proper trainning.

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

A script that you can add to make bullets affected by wind does exist, you just have to add it to your server or play on one with it installed. Here it is: http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=20297

See but that is the issue... Daveallen10 is stating that wind needs to be universal in all servers. Also, not just for long range systems but anyone engaging a target at a conciderable distance should have to compensate for wind. That means the guy/girl with the M4/M16, M249, or .50 cal, ect. should all have to keep in mind there is wind to adjust for.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Superman0023
getting rid of bold tags

[chortles 263]

Just keep in mind, Superman0023, that we're talking about the anti-materiel rifles here -- whereas if you're talking about ".308"/7.62 x 51 mm weapons, the EBR is such a weapon and one which you could also throw the Sniper Optical Sight onto. (The MXM was previously a 7.62 x 45 mm rifle, as was the EBR, until the MXM was "down-calibered".)

[metalcraze 290]

What sniper rifles need is removing the crappy TDM-like balance and adding weight

For example there's zero difference between .408 and 12.7 ammo that Cheytac and GM6 use respectively. It takes exactly 4 shots to take out Hunter with either.

(That and GM6 firing speed which is only 25% faster than Cheytac's when IRL it's 2 times faster)

Sniper rifles are also weightless, so you can just remove the scope and waltz around in CQB killing things like you normally would with any other weapon except with GM6/Cheytac it takes 1 shot to kill anything. IRL they weigh ~14kgs. Good luck doing 360 noscope like you can in ArmA3.