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Flogger23m

Takedown: Red Sabre

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Even where he states the AI are 'good' and doing there job -that looks insanely boring.

OFP:CWC indoors AI is at the genius level compared to what's shown in that video. :D

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Just found the most recent investigation in the "What happened to Monolith/NOLF" mystery: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/09/no-one-lives-forever-rights-nowhere-to-be-found/

Glad to know at least someone is on the case. Man I'm jonesing for that kind of thrill ride again :p

OFP:CWC indoors AI is at the genius level compared to what's shown in that video
Not even in the same country as Takedown

Both sad but true...

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Not as good as OFP? Never played that, but the AI in Takedown is far superior to ArmA 3 indoors. At least they can navigate most of the time, which is impossible in ArmA 2/3.

That being said this game is essentially Letdown: Red Sabre. It is essentially the alpha build. Bugs aside, the game lacks polish, content, and is feature barren. Most of the things that make R6 or SWAT tactical are not implemented, or are but are not practical at all. The game needed many more months before being pushed out. It became apparent that the game would be rather basic a while back, but I never thought this much would be cut. I will post a more detailed post later if I get around to it.

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Superior to A3? TD's AI is a joke. They don't seek cover, they don't move about the terrain in a realistic manner (they waddle about actually), and they sure as hell don't utilize the terrain to their advantage.

AI utilizes the terrain and cover to it's advantage, peeks and leans, and engages the enemy.

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Just found the most recent investigation in the "What happened to Monolith/NOLF" mystery: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/09/no-one-lives-forever-rights-nowhere-to-be-found/

Glad to know at least someone is on the case. Man I'm jonesing for that kind of thrill ride again :p

Both sad but true...

No one lives forever was one of my favourite games back then! And yes the AI was formidable.

If you never played NOLF: Feel uterly ashamed and try to get your hands at least on the first one+expansion

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No one lives forever was one of my favourite games back then! And yes the AI was formidable.

If you never played NOLF: Feel uterly ashamed and try to get your hands at least on the first one+expansion

The original Far Cry's AI (like NOLF), was also exceptionally good.

It's just something we don't really see any more.

With the exception of graphical advancements, we seem to be going backwards in terms of design, innovation etc.

Shame really :(

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The original Far Cry's AI (like NOLF), was also exceptionally good.

Is it? I still remember having dead bodies piling in doorways as AIs nearby kept rushing me blindly.

The only thing that was 'good' for 2004 was that they were calling their buddies for help. Which in an age where most of the arcade shooters had very disconnected AIs (and many still do) was of course an improvement.

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Yup, sure is - I've had them intelligently flank me on numerous occasions (and I've played it through very recently) - I never said it was perfect - just a lot better than most of the crap out there today.

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It's been a while but I remember Far Cry firefights as super fun -especially for that era. And that's how it all boils down for me -are the firefights fun? Are they dynamic, engaging, satisfying, unpredictable? From all my years of gaming, I can tell that this is a herculean task for a programmer to pull off. that's why I tend to cut Bi a lot of slack as every new thing they implement, they have to then adjust to make sure that not only will it disrupt the AI, but can the AI actually compensate and flourish in it. Another hurdle for Bi games is that 1 bullet (ok maybe 5 in arma 3) is lethal and that magnifies the error of AI tenfold. Look at the highly touted F.E.A.R AI (just watched videos), the AI and player can seemingly take a lot of hits so that veils any' stupid moves' to a degree. When the AI has to appear that it has self preservation in a highly lethal bullet game of inches, misteps make them look utterly foolish.

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Superior to A3? TD's AI is a joke. They don't seek cover, they don't move about the terrain in a realistic manner (they waddle about actually), and they sure as hell don't utilize the terrain to their advantage.

AI utilizes the terrain and cover to it's advantage, peeks and leans, and engages the enemy.

Looked the same as Takedown, aside from the fact they can crouch. However, the ArmA 3 AI has extreme difficultly moving around in doors. They essentially stay in one room, unable to move elsewhere. They go prone at any given chance, but that is about it. Good luck getting them to run into a building, return fire, and exit it. Likewise, friendly AI can hardly follow you through two rooms without getting stuck or lost in or outside the building.

Takedown's AI does flank you, occasionally successfully, though often times they run and snap into cover and seem to just stay there. Clearly, the AI needs a lot of work in Takedown.

I've actually been having some fun in the SP. The maps are nice and have a Raven Shield feel, but the AI is dumb like Raven Shield. Dumber in some cases. The lack of commands to give to AI team members and the ArmA style loadout process (editing in a text document) to change their loadouts is a complete pain.

Overall the game lacks a lot of polish and does feel like an alpha. If they could have kept up the work for a couple of months and got someone to do some work purely on the AI, the game might have been rather good.

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@Flogger23m: Glad to hear you at least getting some enjoyment out this. Arma3's AI main problem is that they are built for WWII type medium range combat (exempting trench smartness) with really no exclusive sub routines for fighting indoors -they fight the same either indoor or out. And at least outside, they are getting much better at map object cover ie abandoned cars, walls, trees etc.. but don't have any of that for indoors. So I was curious, from the video I've seen of Sabre, do you ever encounter 'squads' of enemies or are they all running solo? Do they run both indoors and out and do behaviors change at all if they do - I'm guessing no on the last one..

I really want to support these types of Devs that are fighting to bring back the hardcore Tac shooter but again, focus on the AI first and foremost. It really doesn't matter the quality of models, the amount of models, the lighting or anything if your squaring up with buddies to fight a bunch of idiots. Makes the gamer feel like an idiot for preplanning and roleplaying cop :p

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@Flogger23m: Glad to hear you at least getting some enjoyment out this. Arma3's AI main problem is that they are built for WWII type medium range combat (exempting trench smartness) with really no exclusive sub routines for fighting indoors -they fight the same either indoor or out. And at least outside, they are getting much better at map object cover ie abandoned cars, walls, trees etc.. but don't have any of that for indoors. So I was curious, from the video I've seen of Sabre, do you ever encounter 'squads' of enemies or are they all running solo? Do they run both indoors and out and do behaviors change at all if they do - I'm guessing no on the last one..

I really want to support these types of Devs that are fighting to bring back the hardcore Tac shooter but again, focus on the AI first and foremost. It really doesn't matter the quality of models, the amount of models, the lighting or anything if your squaring up with buddies to fight a bunch of idiots. Makes the gamer feel like an idiot for preplanning and roleplaying cop :p

Exactly my point. It just isn't good in doors. Out doors, for out door combat, the AI is leaps and bounds better than Takedown's in their respective environments. And I agree with the AI. Takedown's AI is bad. AI can be a bit better than Raven Shield when it comes to flanking, but is otherwise rather dumb. I feel like we were lied to as the AI was supposed to be a "strong development" point. The AI is certainly a step above bot AI, but is not much more than that. It is stuck in roughly 2003, which is rather bad. For a modern tactical shooter you would think it would be better. The UI is like a terrible console port as well. So much for the console versions not making sacrifices to the PC version...

Here are my general thoughts on Takedown:

Was thinking of doing a really long write up of the game, but I sort of posted my thoughts on various aspects in various threads, so I can keep it simple here:

The core game seems good, but it is in alpha stage if the goal is to be like an R6/SWAT successor. The maps are good, though some maps have most the doors open which is very odd. Aside from that, they are very much like R6/SWAT maps. Bullet penetration and body armor works great. If someone is wearing body armor and you have a 9mm, be prepared to dump a bunch of rounds in them where as a rifle takes them out in 1-2 shots.

AI is Raven Shield like, though at times more oblivious. As in, dumping rounds above their head with no reaction. Other times it is aimbot hacker like. The variance and how it can change on a whim can be frustrating. AI does flank, which is good. They can not lean out, use grenades, and do not work as a team. They tend to stand around or walk basic paths much like older R6 games. No shooting while another advances. Occasionally, the seem to zip around at abnormally fast paces. Pretty basic, much like older R6 games. A bit disappointing for late 2013, IMO.

Animations are bad. Leaning is almost useless, can't move while doing it and you only lean out a tiny bit. Menu UI is horrid; essentially console like with no indication when you click something. Graphic options are resolution, Vsync, brightness and low/med/high. Terrible. Loadout editing is done in the main menu, and you customize 4 sets. In each mission you choose which set. Want to change before the mission? Exit to the menu. Forget what number 2 has? Exit to the menu.

Friendly AI follows you. That is all they do. They call out tangos and often are effective at engaging them, though they can get stuck. Can not choose their loadout/armor. Overall, that is a slap in the face for SP players like myself.

Grenade throwing is odd. Flashbang effect does not last long enough IMO.

Mission briefings play a small video, sometimes with images and map sections. You get about 5 sentences read to you and that is it. Choose your insertion point, loadout, and enter. Mission complete puts you in the menu with a "Mission Complete" text and nothing else. You can then restart or exit to the main menu. No after action report or anything.

5 real missions/maps, and a killhouse modular map.

2D ArmA 2 style scopes suck.

Lack of polish and detail; doing something like hacking a terminal or grabbing a suit case have no sounds. Objective indicators are also odd. Plain text that appears in the center of the screen which is annoying. Timer in the upper center should be moved to the upper left or something.

Like in R6, enemies rarely surrender. If they run out of ammo they do, but you can't restrain them. So you execute them.

Door breaching is unimpressive. As mentioned, many doors are open on maps anyways...

To sum it up, the game needed more development time. And the UI and loadout interface needs to be redone from scratch. AI needs some considerable work to be done. SP needs more AI commands. There is a lot of potential here, and the overall feel is like Raven Shield. I get that feeling when playing and am actually enjoying myself in the SP. I just wish the AI was smarter and I could use my friendly AI more so it would be less about twitch and more about... tactics.

If you are a co-op player, luckily the friendly AI and loadout issues are not a problem and I think the overall experience will be better.

They had the right idea, but ran out of time and money. Cutting some stuff is understandable, but too much just did not make it. I personally hope they can make the title Early Access on Steam, get some more funds from 505 Games (Payday 2 sold very well) and develop the game for another 6+ months. If that can happen, I am sure the game would be rather good.

In summary, I am hugely disappointed.

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I've got pretty mixed feelings about this release. I put my $ into the Kickstarter quite some time ago. I'm very happy to support independent developers through kickstarter, steam early access etc. I appreciate that there are developers interested in going against the flow of mainstream FPSs. I appreciate that these guys aren't going to have the resources to push out AAA quality games. And I usually have my expectations set very low so I won't be disappointed. And even with all these in mind, I was very disappointed with Takedown. It's broken, feature poor and perhaps worst of all, just not fun. It shouldn't have been released in this state - the overwhelmingly negative reception it has garnered will likely not only damage Serellan, but put a lot of people off the whole kickstarter/ early access process.

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It's broken, feature poor and perhaps worst of all, just not fun. It shouldn't have been released in this state - the overwhelmingly negative reception it has garnered will likely not only damage Serellan, but put a lot of people off the whole kickstarter/ early access process.

I don't know if this will affect future Kickstarters (there have been a number of KS flops and failures), but as you say, I'm worried that it will definitely hurt Serellan. I think the only thing that will save them is if they fix what's broken and continue to support the game as if they actually believe in it. Maybe I've been spoiled by Bohemia Interactive, but if Serellan can show the same kind of long term support, then there's probably hope for the game and the company. In addition, if they add mod support, then maybe their community can pick up some of the slack similar to how people have done for Arma.

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Mod support will be added. With the bugs, I guess we might have to wait a week or so longer. They should have released this as an Early Access title if they ran out of funds. Kickstarters would still get the final game... just later. And I think most of us would have preferred to wait another 6+ months to get a better game.

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Looked the same as Takedown, aside from the fact they can crouch. However, the ArmA 3 AI has extreme difficultly moving around in doors. They essentially stay in one room, unable to move elsewhere. They go prone at any given chance, but that is about it. Good luck getting them to run into a building, return fire, and exit it. Likewise, friendly AI can hardly follow you through two rooms without getting stuck or lost in or outside the building.

Takedown's AI does flank you, occasionally successfully, though often times they run and snap into cover and seem to just stay there. Clearly, the AI needs a lot of work in Takedown.

I've actually been having some fun in the SP. The maps are nice and have a Raven Shield feel, but the AI is dumb like Raven Shield. Dumber in some cases. The lack of commands to give to AI team members and the ArmA style loadout process (editing in a text document) to change their loadouts is a complete pain.

Overall the game lacks a lot of polish and does feel like an alpha. If they could have kept up the work for a couple of months and got someone to do some work purely on the AI, the game might have been rather good.

The AI needs a shit-ton of work. The entire half finished product needs a lot of work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hEcjx1w0qE

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It´s 90% off on Steam until Feb. 17th - and apparently buying the four-pack gives you eight copies of the game. So if you´re looking to get the game cheap, now is the time :D

Does somebody know if it received the patches it needed (esp. connectivity issues and AI)?

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Honestly, even for a buck and a half, this 'game' is a pathetic joke.

Grab insurgency - it's $12.00 but it's worth every cent imho.

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Thx for the advice, tenor on steam forums was about the same but i´d rather hear it from fellow arma forumites.

All fine then, we still have SWAT 4 :) *Mr Burns rocks back & forth in chair silently*

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Yah, that's why I like the coop in Insurgency, it reminds me of vintage R6 and SWAT 4 tbh (when you get a good group going).

I tried very hard to like Takedown but it was an obvious attempt to cash in on the R6 connection that was highlighted ad nauseam throughout the run up to release.

It's one of the main reasons that I will not support early access/preorder games anymore.

'Developers' like Serrellan didn't just kill the goose, they stuffed it, cooked it and ate it :rolleyes:

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Save your money and put it towards Ground Branch. Early Access to start soon. I would even put money into that opposed to buying Insurgency (retail version). INS is rather plain... better than Takedown, but still very sterile.

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Save your money and put it towards Ground Branch. Early Access to start soon. I would even put money into that opposed to buying Insurgency (retail version). INS is rather plain... better than Takedown, but still very sterile.

Sterile, not even sure in what context you mean that (many of the firefights I've had in Insurgency have been, in a word, 'dirty' ;)

Insurgency is a solid tactical shooter at a very reasonable price (I say that because I have had way more fun with Insurgency than I have with several other AAA titles that shall remain nameless, and that cost 5 times as much - it's also fully released)

I would think twice before 'pimping' for unreleased games, Serrellan taught us that lesson in spades.

I would similarly be very careful about supporting so called 'early access' projects.

TB discusses it here:

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread but JM2C :D

PS: I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Ground Branch, just that you shouldn't 'count your chickens before they hatch'.

Edited by BangTail

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