Abortion and the death penalty

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 26 2002,18:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oligo, I'd be happy to see your medical credentials or whatever authority you have to sound like such a well-learned scientist.  I also think it's funny that you seem to think that abortions are "only done during the first trimester of pregnancy."  Now there's some back-and-forth on the partial birth abortions, but you can get an abortion up until you actually give birth.  It's just that many doctors won't them that late into the pregnancy.

The fetus (Latin for "little one," for those who don't know) is functioning from conception, but it is not fully functioning.  Fully fuctioning would mean that the baby has arms, legs, fully developed organs, etc, which it does not at 0 weeks.

And as far as the suction method, have you ever seen what the baby looks like after that?<span id='postcolor'>

Turkish,

You are suggesting that later term pregnancies are aborted on a regular basis, and that this is somehow both legal and becoming accepted practice.

I dont know how things stand in the US, but to the best of my knowledge, here in Canada it is illegal to perform an abortion after the first trimester, and in most cases late first trimester pregnancies are advised to go to term and offer adoption.

You are taking a very fundamentalist pro life stance. And I respect your right to do so. The problem is when the fundamentalist pro lifers use what is a very tiny minority as a reason to ban the whole thing.

And for the record, I think anyone involved in late term or 'near birth' abortions should be locked away in a deep dark hole. Both the doctors, nurses, and the parent.

Why?

Because that is a viable near term child, not a collection of cells. It's semantics...but you'll never convince me that a 5 week old bundle of cells is a human being. And I am a parent.

[canukausiuka 1]

I don't have a problem with abortions for good reasons, but it seems to me that far too many abortions are just for convenience. I cannot see any strong argument justifying that. If a woman gets raped, or her life may be in danger, then abortion is an acceptable thing. If it was just an 'accident', then she should have to pay for it (so should the father - I'm all for equal family roles between mother and father, but that doesn't belong in this discussion). I know some of you have said we don't have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body, and to an extent you are correct. But you also have to consider that the fetus, whether you consider it a human or not, has the potential to become one, so it's not easy to say whether it's just her body... she's affecting the infant too.

What it boils down to, is I have a problem with abortions just for the convenience of the parent(s). If they didn't think beforehand, they will after. Instead, I think they should have the child, and if they can look down at it, in their arms, and say they don't want it, then they should put it up for adoption and they better not repeat the mistake. Nothing to me seems dumber than repeating mistakes, especially big ones.

Of course, myself, I don't understand why these people where screwing in the first place. People should wait until they are married and have a commitment. And even then, if they don't want a kid, (go ahead and call me a bad Catholic ) use contraceptives. Seems like common sense to me.

Of course, places like Africa have to be taken into special consideration, and honestly, I think it should be up to them, not foreign governments handing out money, whether they should be allowed. I'm getting OT here though.

Anyways, I understand that some of you disagree on both sides of the dispute. Seems to me that the middle path is the most reasonable though. I can see peoples arguments for both extremes, but they don't make near as much sense as more moderate ones.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MSMS_KDXer @ July 26 2002,13:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If it was just an 'accident', then she should have to pay for it (so should the father - I'm all for equal family roles between mother and father, but that doesn't belong in this discussion)<span id='postcolor'>

So you encourage immature or irresponsible parents to have kids? What's going to happen to these kids who are raised by parents who are obviously not suited for it?

It happens a lot, especially in the inner city type places. People get pregnant, have kids, no one watches the kid or loves it, get's involved in crime, ends up in jail.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 26 2002,18:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think there is plenty of discussion still to be had on the death penalty. It seems that too many people on this forum at least are saying things like "Yeah the death penalty is too lenient, these guys should have their balls cut off and then skinned alive, sent to a firing squad etc etc" and frankly its rather worrying. Because when you start thinking about treating any human being like that, whether hes a Rapist or Murderer or whatever, you become worse than him/her. You become like the people a couple of hundred years ago that would go and watch the hangings/beheadings/torture for a good evening of entertainment.

This post isnt so much about the death penalty as it is about adressing the mentality of all of you "kill, burn dieee!" people.<span id='postcolor'>

Your damn right.Why should we feel bad for someone that killed someone else ? They didn't give that person a choice.I remember this one story in pakistan(i think).He would kidnap boy's and chop them up,then melt their bodies in to acid.So when they got the guy they did the same to him.I believe when they was choping him up he was alive ,not for sure.But that would teach murderers if they kill someone that painful,they will get the samething done to them.Which i believe should be done.Lethal injection is too simple.

[KingBeast 0]

Then you join the ranks of the hypocritical ones. You say that doing these things is bad, but its okay to do these things to someone that has done them before?

Perhaps rapists should be raped as punishment?

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 26 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then you join the ranks of the hypocritical ones. You say that doing these things is bad, but its okay to do these things to someone that has done them before?

Perhaps rapists should be raped as punishment?<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps rapists should be raped as punishment?

They do in prison.They get rape all night long.Never drop the soap in jail,ever heard that ?

Then you join the ranks of the hypocritical ones. You say that doing these things is bad, but its okay to do these things to someone that has done them before?

Why should you give them the choice when their victims didn't have one.I mean heard of some weird murders though,which sound awful.How bout this one,This guy rapes a girl kills her ,chops her up,and cement her and left her somewhere.How shitting is that ? There's worst cases then that.I mean you wanna see how murderers kill their victims ? I bet you can find a website with all pictures showing you what murderers do.I believe if we do kill them the same way they kill their victims,The victims wouldn't be in soo much pain when they do get murder.

[KingBeast 0]

And are all of these strnage murders comitted by Human beings with perfectly rational thought and a clear state of mental health?

Doubtful.

[Warin 0]

Okie...here is another Warinrantâ„¢

Here in North America, we seem to have an all or nothing punishment system.  Corporal punishment for minor's has been eliminated, as getting the strap for being a right bloody bastard is considered degrading and inhumane.  Then when said RBB goes out and commits a crime, the juvenile courts give them a slap on the wrist.  At worst, they get stuck in detention with other hooligans and learn worse habits.  This becomes a cycle, and as an adult they are barely punished..so what ends up happening is that the social misfits end up becoming career criminals.  Then one day they do something heinous and end up in an execution chamber for it. Wonderful  

The best analogy that I've read is in Starship Troopers (The book, not the horrid movie).  DuBois uses the analogy of training a dog.  Would you let your dog continue to make a mess in the house, and just scold it...then when you notice that it's a full grown dog and still isnt paper trained you pull out a gun and shoot it. (poorly paraphrased. When I am home later I will quote it if anyone likes)

So what I think needs to happen is that we need to tighten laws and punishments so that there is actual deterence in  the system.  If that means 'psycholgically scarring' someone because htey are embarassed at being given real punishment...so be it, if it means they wont commit more crimes later.

Our society has become way too touchy feely ruled by a bunch of silly assed shrinks who dont have a clue

Thank you for participating in another Warinrantâ„¢

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

I really need to read Starship Troopers...

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 26 2002,22:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And are all of these strnage murders comitted by Human beings with perfectly rational thought and a clear state of mental health?

Doubtful.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree that people that do murder people have no morals.

But should i feel sorry for them that their parents never took them aside and thought them morals ?You know today kids have it too easy these days.People are bringing up murderers,How you say ? Because they don't spank their children and it's always someone fault,or there's an excuse when someone screws up.When i messed up i got my ass spank,they didn't blame anyone else ,there was no excuse,if i f--- up i knew i was going get in trouble.Guess what ? I didn't kill,rob,steal,other things to other people,because i have morals.You know i knew some kids when i grew that never got spank ,One was a gang member,others stole stuff.

Sooo I tell you this.IF you have kids spank them when they screw up.

Hmm,thinking here,should i post or not.Screw it. POST!

[KingBeast 0]

Foxer, how old are you? Are you a parent?

How can you make these deductions about murders/thieves etc being the product of bad parenting?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

You guys post faster than I can read! I do not believe that at any time abortion should be legal. God forgives murders, if they ask for it, but they still must be punished with death, weather they convert to Christ are not. A murder diserves death, but I do to for my sins, but that murderer can be forgiven for what he did. I belive the that child molesters should be giving the death penalty, even a Catholic priest, but that is jsut my opinion.

[foxer 0]

20,and no.

How can you make these deductions about murders/thieves etc being the product of bad parenting?

If parents keeps saying this is why their kid did this and this,and their kid never got in trouble ,the kid will think he can get away with anything.Plus murderers always give an excuse on why they murder someone.I have an excuse for someone who murder someone,sit on this chair ,and let me flip the switch.I mean i don't blame the parents all the time of murderers,but there some cases you have to blame them.

[foxer 0]

Also,i believe morals come from parents,not a teacher,not a police man,not fireman,not from some guy you paying 20 bucks a hour to talk to your kid.If you don't have morals you probably don't give a crap about anything.

[Renagade 0]

Like i siad before the circumstances are as important as the crime in deciding matters

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 26 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys post faster than I can read! I do not believe that at any time abortion should be legal. God forgives murders, if they ask for it, but they still must be punished with death, weather they convert to Christ are not. A murder diserves death, but I do to for my sins, but that murderer can be forgiven for what he did. I belive the that child molesters should be giving the death penalty, even a Catholic priest, but that is jsut my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

Your downfall comes when you base your entire argument on myth and dogma. These things you speek of are only real to yourself and other christians - not to the rest of the world. You have to step outside your beliefs when you talk about these things and ask yourself "Is this really logical?"

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ July 27 2002,00:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 26 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys post faster than I can read! I do not believe that at any time abortion should be legal. God forgives murders, if they ask for it, but they still must be punished with death, weather they convert to Christ are not. A murder diserves death, but I do to for my sins, but that murderer can be forgiven for what he did. I belive the that child molesters should be giving the death penalty, even a Catholic priest, but that is jsut my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

Your downfall comes when you base your entire argument on myth and dogma. These things you speek of are only real to yourself and other christians - not to the rest of the world. You have to step outside your beliefs when you talk about these things and ask yourself "Is this really logical?"<span id='postcolor'>

Atheists are in a distinct minority in this world.

But I am the first to say that religion has no place in law making, even though I am a Christian. Not all religious people are zealots, and unable to be rational.

[Aculaud 0]

I'm not an atheist

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I believe that religon should be used in law making, that is the Christian religon. The fonding fathers said separtion from church and state, not GOD and state. If the founding fathers had saw what was going to happen to America, they would have done alot different. Yes these things are logical murder is wrong, and abortion is murder.

[cybrid 0]

How can destroying and undeveloped system of cells be murder?

[Aculaud 0]

Alright, hypathetical situation. You have a bear charging you. If he attacks you, and you live through it, you would most likely be put in the hospital for a number of things, and the chance exists that you could be living the rest of your life being disfigured, maybe a limb missing etc.

Only one thing, you have a gun for use in deffending yourself from this bear. You use it and kill the bear. Is that murder?

[cybrid 0]

No that isn't murder, you were protecting your own life. If some guy broke into your home at night and was armed, it would not be murder to kill him (in my opinion).

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ July 27 2002,02:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Alright, hypathetical situation. You have a bear charging you. If he attacks you, and you live through it, you would most likely be put in the hospital for a number of things, and the chance exists that you could be living the rest of your life being disfigured, maybe a limb missing etc.

Only one thing, you have a gun for use in deffending yourself from this bear. You use it and kill the bear. Is that murder?<span id='postcolor'>

Aiee! What if you have an Abrams and there are 100 bears?

Better to use the 'burglar breaking into the house' scenario...

After all, it's not murder to shoot a bear to make a nice rug for in front of the fireplace and some very tasty sausage

I doubt (unless you are Hannibal Lecter ) that you'd want a human rug and sausage. But defending your home against some cracked up thief is not murder..more like justifiable homicide.

[Aculaud 0]

Then what is having an abortion if not justifiable homicide?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ July 27 2002,02:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then what is having an abortion if not justifiable homicide?<span id='postcolor'>

Ahhh! You've cut to the core of the discussion!

To the pro life sorts, there is no such thing as justifiable homicide!

To the pro choice sorts, that's exactly how they see it (except they wont use the term homicide )