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Duke_of_Ray

Abortion and the death penalty

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">KingBeast Posted on July 25 2002,19:59

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lol what do you mean like a sac of wet rats? <span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be "can of sardines *spelling"

Why didn't I think of that before?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 25 2002,16:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay Turk you are right in the respect that aborting a child doesnt give them a first chance, let alone a second chance in comparison to say a murderer or rapist.

Is a foetus even aware of its existence? Probably as aware of its existance as a sperm cell is ill bet. And hey, sperms are life as much as you might disagree. They have little wiggly tails and they swim, so they cant be dead!

I think what it comes down to is sentience. And is a 2 week old growth inside a woman actually sentient? Im not sure on that so maybe someone can clear it up for me. Back to the death penalty however...

The Death Penalty clearly does not deter people from murdering, what is its purpose? Hey I know! Instead of one person dying, lets kill another because thats right and good. There really is no reason for the death penalty, no justification at all.

Sure if either of us were family of a murder/rape victim, we would want the culprit to die. Painfully probably. But we arent allowed to kill them ourselves because that would be wrong. So it is right to let the government kill them?

As I say, the Death Penalty plain does not work. Look at the amount of murders in the US, and then compare it to the amount in the UK for instance. Or most other countries that do not have the death penalty.<span id='postcolor'>

KB,

You're right, that sperm cells are alive. But they aren't human life. That doesn't happen until it's joined with the egg. Once the sperm and egg join, the resulting union is a multi-celled nucleus that contains all the DNA information necessary, such as sex, hair and eye colour, shoe size, fingerprint pattern, etc. It has human life, whether it's aware of itself or not. And if self-awareness is a prerequisite to keeping your life, I know a lot of college kids who are in BIG trouble smile.gif j/k.

But the whole "I think, therefore I am" mentality doesn't really fly here. Honestly, I can't remember anything before age 2 or 3, and my first memory is being stung in the ear by a bumblebee. A newborn baby has a memory span of a few minutes, and by three months it's probably a week or two, if that. So it's not totally accurate to base it on self-awareness. If you did, you'd have to consider getting rid of plenty of retarded and old people.

Now for the DP...

I think a big reason that a lot of people don't worry about the death penalty is they know they can cop an insane plea and beat the rap, which is something that I can't stand about this country's legal system. Like this whole thing with Massoussi or whatever his name is. He was going to commit an act of terrorism and mass destruction, and there are actually lawyers who would defend him? What the f**k? How un-American can you get? But that's neither here nor there.

Back to the point...KB, don't take this as a slam, but it's precisely the attitude that you're showing now that is the problem with the justice system. People don't personally like the death sentence, so they never use it. And now criminals know that, so they're less likely to think twice about doing it. The people who are in power think "It's not our place to decide whether or not they live or die." You know what? It IS your place. You, whether you're the judge, the jury, or even the cop in some cases, you have the power and authority to make that call. Whether you believe it or not, God has given you that authority with the understanding that you will use it.

You'll remember I said my wife was raped when she was a teenager. I burn with anger every time I think about it. But it is not my place to kill the guy in revenge, as much as I'd love to put two in the back of his head. God says in Deuteronomy 32:35, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them." (Just so you know, I quote the whole verse, even if it doesn't all apply, because I don't want people saying that I take things out of context.) Paul also writes in Romans 12:19, "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord."

Now, that applies to us as individual citizens. In and of ourselves, we do not represent the government, or the justice department. So we don't have the authority to decide who lives or dies (now, if you come into my house with intent to harm me and mine, you ain't walkin' out). But the governing authorities have been put in place by God, and we are expected to follow the rules, whether we like them or not, or pay the consequences, whether we like them or not.

Let's do what you suggest and compare the number of murders in the US as compared to the UK. The first thing we need to notice is that the US is home to 300 Million people, and the UK has about 60 Million. So we're comparing two countries, one of which is a fifth the size of the other (population-wise). So let's look at violent crime, or what the Bureau of Justice Statistics calls "violent victimization."

According to a 2001 study by the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS, which is put out by the BJS), from 1999 to 2000 violent victimization in the US fell 15%. According to the official UK statistics website, violent crime in England rose 4%. There are also other factors to consider, like the fact that the US allows its citizens to own guns, and many states allow concealed carry of a firearm (with a permit of course), or at least open carry (firearm in plain view in its holster), and the UK doesn't even let skeet shooters keep their weapons in their own home.

You can further mince things if you'd like. You ask that, if we aren't allowed to exact revenge in and of our own accord, "is it right to let the government kill them?" Well, since that's in such scrutiny at this moment, let's expand the scope to the military.

Now some of you may say "But Turk, the military is different. That's what you're supposed to do, is kill the enemy." Even so, you've doubled back on yourself. So you're saying that it's wrong to let the government kill a person who takes away the rights of people to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But you're saying it's acceptable to send our troops to the mountains of Afghanistan to kill people who took away the rights of people to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So now we're into another hot topic:

Relativism (ie., what's right for me is wrong for you)

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By the way, I'm enjoying this debate. It's really good for me to put into words what I believe, and why I believe them.

So thanks, guys, for keeping it interesting. I hope you don't mind my long posts!

Turkish

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Well I shall enter my opinion. I agree with that person who said 'Abortion should be an option, but not so easily accesable as so it does not become a method of contreception'. I believe it is better for the fetus/baby(whatever you look at is as) to die well undeveloped, than to have to live a life (as in the famous English tale, the prince and the pauper) as an unwanted child, abused and live a life of possible poverty. For example, in many African countries, abortion is either not avaliable or not allowed and look at it. They can not sustain the population. One child dies everysomething like 1minute from starvation in 3rd world countries. Now for the death penalty. I reckong lock up the rapists, muderes and the like for EVER. Do the classic lock 'em up and throw away the key. I have an idea for a cell. It is a 20m deep concret pit. So you have to use an elevator to go down it. And the elevator is kept at the top. Smooth walss. Not enough materials to make a rope. If we kill, them, then their suffering is over (unless they go to this hell if it exists). If we are going to kill them though, I reckon we should go for satisfaction garunteed. The firing squad. Woudlnt it be enjoyable(maybe) to sit there killing all those criminals? AND NO BLINDFOLD! Let the victims family see the fear as the rifles are pointed at the heart. Let them see the body shudder and jump as they rounds slam in.

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assuming that the guy there is the scum of the earth........like lets say the guy getting the deathpenalty was there for brutal murder of

the guy that seriously assualted and raped his daughter and WAS the scum of the earth.

I think the blindfolds there as much for the other ppl than the offender.

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I have created a monster! tounge.gif Well God is real and I would not want to make him mad by killing innocent babies, it is not a womans coice, it is part of nature and the fetus is a human, how would you have liked for your mom to have put your brother/sister to death or a frineds mom have killed him?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 25 2002,20:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have created a monster! tounge.gif  Well God is real and I would not want to make him mad by killing innocent babies, it is not a womans coice, it is part of nature and the fetus is a human, how would you have liked for your mom to have put your brother/sister to death or a frineds mom have killed him?<span id='postcolor'>

One persons opinion - just one. Not to be confused with other peoples versions of the truth.

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Turkish old bean...

I need you to provide me a weblink to the actual statistics, and also a comparison of per capita incidences of various types of crimes against persons.

Otherwise, I will say bollocks to your stats!

Net increase or decrease in a type of crime mean nothing, to be frank. In the end, it's the per capita incidence of said crimes that matters smile.gif

I think many pro gun advocates dig up statistics in order to advance their agendas smile.gif

But on the other side of the coin, I am certain that anti-gun advocates will dig up stats to support themselves as well. I am sure to get flamed, but I personally think Canada has great firearms laws. If you are a law abiding citizen, you can buy virtually any (within reason) firearm with reasonable. ie No full auto weapons, and some military weapons restricted. I can for instance buy an AR15 but not an M4.

What does this have to do with the death penalty? Not a hell of a lot wink.gif Same with abortion. But, you brought up violent crime.

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"Now some of you may say "But Turk, the military is different. That's what you're supposed to do, is kill the enemy." Even so, you've doubled back on yourself. So you're saying that it's wrong to let the government kill a person who takes away the rights of people to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

No, several of us are saying that this isnt OK.

"But you're saying it's acceptable to send our troops to the mountains of Afghanistan to kill people who took away the rights of people to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

No, several of us are saying that this isnt OK.

As for the bible. A book so full of errors and contradictions cannot be taken literally. Yes, the message of the Old and New testaments are words to live by. The Commandments and Jesus teachings are something that should be considered even by those who do not believe in God. But to justify laws and decisions on the basis of what some interpretor translated some guy who quoted some fellow said is dangerous. Use your own mind instead. Use real and up to date arguments for what you are trying to say.

And never ever forget that modern mainstream Christianity and everything with it is a perverse version of the original. Christianity was used as a means to control the people and it was shaped by it.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being.  I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter.  At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile.  I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot.  You can count the tiny toes in the picture.  The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks.  All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy.  The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain).  They have fingerprints.  Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints.

Do you know what abortions do?  I mean physically.  Do you know how abortions work?  There are two primary methods for aborting babies.  One is the saline method.  They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive.  Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours.  Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand?  Or hot oil?  It's the same thing.  And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it.  The other common method is the suction method.  They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out.  Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done.  <span id='postcolor'>

You're simply wrong. And it's easy to explain why:

First of all, abortions are only done during the first trimester of pregnancy, that is, the first three months. Also, abortions are PREFERABLY done as early as possible, meaning that if you intentionally wait two and a half months before going for it, they might not do an abortion even if it is still legal. So we will limit our discussion to first three months.

Like you said a fetus has a fully functioning body at 11 weeks. Actually it has a fully functioning body from 0 weeks on, because a non-functioning body will die. All the organs and nerves are there at 11 weeks. But the size is that of a mere fingernail. That's the problem.

You claimed that the nervous system of the baby is complete at 11 weeks. This is totally not so. It's a question of size. The nervous system of a 11 weeks old is like that of an ant. The reason for this is that you cannot fit a more complex nervous system to a being the size of a fingernail, because all eukaryotic cells (the cells of multi-celled organisms) are about the same size. That means that the cells of an ant are the same size as the cells of a human. Thus, the nervous system of a 11 weeks fetus has about the same number of cells as that of an ant, because you cannot FIT more into it (ever wondered why humans are the size they are? This is the answer.) During the further development of the fetus, the cells divide (as do the cells of the heart and so on) and eventually produce a nervous system of humane complexity. This happens way after the first trimester. The fetus can feel pain if an ant can, which I doubt.

The saline method of abortion does not "burn" the fetus alive. Saline is a term for 0.9% solution of NaCl. And dude, our body is made mostly of saline, just like the fetus is. Our cellular fluid is saline based. Our blood is saline based. The amniotic fluid that the fetus swims in is saline based. The saline method just flushes the fetus out.

What comes to the suction method, well, you just suck out an ant.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,23:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ July 25 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We live in the 21th Century, not in the 17th.

The bible is old, its too old for the civilisation now. It have been once before, but then it was updated, now we shall live by the rules of our community, our laws. The bible have teached us alot, but it cannot be lived by, and it is no more than wisdom written into a book to help people live their lives and remain law and order in a community. It created what was the first real civilisation, but it is outdated... and its been that for long now.

Now we dont need any book or any religion to live by. We need to believe in ourselves, we are indivisuals with our own rights, and we can succeed, the book and priests are replaced by parents, school and its teachers, It is replaced by the persons we live amongs. Religion is over, we have our own religion and its what our ancestors have been fought for when all their money were taked from the priests a long time ago.

This doesnt only apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, believe in yourself, not a god. God isnt their, we are our own master, we dont have to live under pressure or sacrifice our valuest. Most wars are caused by religion nowadays, it may seem right, but it isnt. If we dont stop believing we never will, dont u see it??!

Some "believers" are looking down to people with other or none believers, non believers are looking down to believers. Believeing in minorities is the cause of hate, and hate isnt to be justified in any cause. We saw this happen when Adolf Hitler looked down to Jews and other minorities. It is cruelness and coldness, we saw it when Ali and his friends flew into the twin towers, cruel. This is caused by religion. It might or might not be your religion, but it is still the cause of it. There is no god, no controller, no ruler except ourself. If we do not stop believing this we will stop functioning in a short period of time.

/Edit (somehow it erased the last part of my post)

The world is getting smaller for each day, and we need to find alternatives to produce food, and find shelter for the growing population. Our technology is incriesing as well, but religion will put an end to this. We need to support what our ethics are, not the religion we think exists. Mother Earth is also developping, and its fruits are getting more and more evolved, but it is doing it too slow for us. We are simply to fast for the earth, and we either have to slow down, or take it into our own hands. This means birthcontroll or genetherapy. Many religions are against this.... And they are against birth controll as well.... Religion will be the cause of our death... And this is only 1 example of it.

Religion was once, and it has passed. It was good to bring people together and live in peace, but it is over, the world is too small and its people are too large and developped.

Im not taking any statement in gene therapy or birthcontrol here, but it is depressing to see people being somehow brainwashed that they limit their own freedom which is exactly what our civilisation is based upon the day today. Welive now, not 400 years ago. LIVE!<span id='postcolor'>

Words that could only have come from someone who has no understanding of Christianity whatsoever. Of course the Bible (the teaching of Christ) can be lived by, you'd just rather not.<span id='postcolor'>

You have just proven my point. Thank you.

As for scientists have proven that Earth have alot more population as it is now. Yes it can, but things need to be rearranged. Space isnt the only propblem, food is as well, maybe not in your area, but in alot of 3rd world countries are having poor or none extra supplies if a dry-out should occur. People are starving while others have no problem whatsoever.

Since those 3rd world countries primary get their food from plants, genetic technology would be able to save alot of work, trying to move ressources. We might not know what the consequenses is, if there is any, but a little more research should prove some intel. The only things we are doing right now, is to send food via planes etc. to the hunger-hit areas, but it is far from enough. And it is a very in-effective solution, but as it is right now, it is the only option.

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Actually, I am more against IVF/artificial insemination than I am against abortion.

Think about it: nature (or God, depending on your viewpoint) makes a certain number of people unable to reproduce for a very good reason. Population control and/or preventing passing on of defective genes.

Also, every infertile couple who can have a child artificially is one less orphan adopted. confused.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 26 2002,08:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being.  I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter.  At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile.  I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot.  You can count the tiny toes in the picture.  The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks.  All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy.  The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain).  They have fingerprints.  Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints.

Do you know what abortions do?  I mean physically.  Do you know how abortions work?  There are two primary methods for aborting babies.  One is the saline method.  They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive.  Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours.  Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand?  Or hot oil?  It's the same thing.  And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it.  The other common method is the suction method.  They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out.  Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done.  <span id='postcolor'>

You're simply wrong. And it's easy to explain why:

First of all, abortions are only done during the first trimester of pregnancy, that is, the first three months. Also, abortions are PREFERABLY done as early as possible, meaning that if you intentionally wait two and a half months before going for it, they might not do an abortion even if it is still legal. So we will limit our discussion to first three months.

Like you said a fetus has a fully functioning body at 11 weeks. Actually it has a fully functioning body from 0 weeks on, because a non-functioning body will die. All the organs and nerves are there at 11 weeks. But the size is that of a mere fingernail. That's the problem.

You claimed that the nervous system of the baby is complete at 11 weeks. This is totally not so. It's a question of size. The nervous system of a 11 weeks old is like that of an ant. The reason for this is that you cannot fit a more complex nervous system to a being the size of a fingernail, because all eukaryotic cells (the cells of multi-celled organisms) are about the same size. That means that the cells of an ant are the same size as the cells of a human. Thus, the nervous system of a 11 weeks fetus has about the same number of cells as that of an ant, because you cannot FIT more into it (ever wondered why humans are the size they are? This is the answer.) During the further development of the fetus, the cells divide (as do the cells of the heart and so on) and eventually produce a nervous system of humane complexity. This happens way after the first trimester. The fetus can feel pain if an ant can, which I doubt.

The saline method of abortion does not "burn" the fetus alive. Saline is a term for 0.9% solution of NaCl. And dude, our body is made mostly of saline, just like the fetus is. Our cellular fluid is saline based. Our blood is saline based. The amniotic fluid that the fetus swims in is saline based. The saline method just flushes the fetus out.

What comes to the suction method, well, you just suck out an ant.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank you Oligo for that interesting information. I think it illustrates how interest groups bend the truth to fit their purpouses and when you look at it closer you see that the story they are telling couldn't actually be further from the truth.

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I'm pro-choice, anti abortion as a form of contraception, pro death penalty, and that's all I can be bothered to contribute to the topic as it'll be closed in a day or two when the compulsory flaming breaks out smile.gif

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to put it quite simply i don't know or care particuarly much. As one dilbert famously put it, "i leave it to the philosphers" or something to that point. Many may call something which i forgot right at the moment ( biggrin.gif ) but i choose to remain ignorant (?) and i remain quite content this way. As i don't plan to have ivf (not female), death penalty (law abiding) and etc. (i'm not that either) i don't care.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ July 26 2002,11:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to put it quite simply i don't know or care particuarly much. As one dilbert famously put it, "i leave it to the philosphers" or something to that point. Many may call something which i forgot right at the moment ( biggrin.gif ) but i choose to remain ignorant (?) and i remain quite content this way. As i don't plan to have ivf (not female), death penalty (law abiding) and etc. (i'm not that either) i don't care.<span id='postcolor'>

What if u get convicted even though you are inicent?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ July 26 2002,12:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ July 26 2002,11:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to put it quite simply i don't know or care particuarly much. As one dilbert famously put it, "i leave it to the philosphers" or something to that point. Many may call something which i forgot right at the moment ( biggrin.gif ) but i choose to remain ignorant (?) and i remain quite content this way. As i don't plan to have ivf (not female), death penalty (law abiding) and etc. (i'm not that either) i don't care.<span id='postcolor'>

What if u get convicted even though you are inicent?<span id='postcolor'>

as i said, "i leave it to the philosphers" . Anyway, if i was in that situation i probably deserve it for complete stupidity or etc. Then again i'm not the sort of person to hang around drug deals, murders, etc. wink.gif

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On abortion something that hasn't come up yet:

It is detrimental to the health and wellbeing of the woman.

Chuck that naturalistic, materialistic cell lump viewpoint. It is one dimensional. I have counseled scores of traumatized, severely depressed post-abortion women, who would turn back time if they only could.

One week after the op a particular woman experienced severe pain in her abdomen. She went back to the doc for a checkup. Only then did they discover that they had left a part of the child's corpse inside her, making her a living tomb. She came to me 10 years after the fact, still haunted.

Others are haunted by memories from the sucking sound of the "vac" aborting their cell lumps. Others turn frigid, presumably in an attempt at self-punishment. Others expect and accept negative turns of fate as punishment from God and lose all ambition, cry a lot.

I have seen that only very choleric women and to a smaller percentage sanguine personalities can cope with the stress an abortion carries.

(In the military a similar phenomenon occurs. In WW1 they called it shell shock, in Germany it was grenade fever. Nowadays everybody has heard the term "posttraumatic stress syndrome" flung around.)

The traumatizing effect of abortions on the female psyche is well known in medical circles, but hardly anybody speaks about it. In my esteem the reason is that a whole industry exploits the "right to choose" nowadays. They remain silent for monetary reasons. To be honest would hurt the checkbook of many doctors.

So, I'm against abortion, not just because God doesn't like it, but because I like women. (My wife in particular.) God is against it, because he likes people in general.

(Imagine Jesus would have been aborted!wink.gifsad.gif

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"So, I'm against abortion, not just because God doesn't like it, but because I like women. (My wife in particular.) God is against it, because he likes people in general."

I hope you are aware that there also are women who are perfectlty fine after an abortion. Not all of them become nervous wrecks. I am also willing to bet that several of those that do become that way from the pressure around the entire procedure (no, not all of them, but some).

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"One week after the op a particular woman experienced severe pain in her abdomen. She went back to the doc for a checkup. Only then did they discover that they had left a part of the child's corpse inside her, making her a living tomb. She came to me 10 years after the fact, still haunted."

Sounds really scary, but I think she remembered the diagnosis incorrectly. Menstrual process gets rid of much worse crap than leftovers of a first trimester fetus, like the whole epithelial lining of the uterus. More likely they had accidentally left a part of the placenta in place and so her body still hormonally thought she was pregnant (placenta produces pregnancy hormones), causing complications. You got to remember that the female body has a natural mechanism for abortions. If the fetus is unfit for life, it spontaneously aborts and is flushed out with the epithelial lining and placenta, which looks like normal menstruation.

"Others are haunted by memories from the sucking sound of the "vac" aborting their cell lumps. Others turn frigid, presumably in an attempt at self-punishment. Others expect and accept negative turns of fate as punishment from God and lose all ambition, cry a lot."

Much of this is probably caused by the preaching hypocrites, who try to make the whole issue sound somehow wrong.

"The traumatizing effect of abortions on the female psyche is well known in medical circles, but hardly anybody speaks about it. In my esteem the reason is that a whole industry exploits the "right to choose" nowadays. They remain silent for monetary reasons. To be honest would hurt the checkbook of many doctors."

Then you'd be glad to know that in Finland we also have a public heath-care system and abortions are included to that (they're free). The doctors do not get any more money if they do abortions or not. Furthermore, when abortions are performed here, the woman is also informed about the depression it might cause. They can then make an informed choice. And we actually have quite a small number of abortions, because youngsters know how to use birth control.

"So, I'm against abortion, not just because God doesn't like it, but because I like women. (My wife in particular.) God is against it, because he likes people in general."

And because you don't like it, you want nobody else to do it either. I however think that abortions should not be forced, but there should be a possibility to choose.

"(Imagine Jesus would have been aborted!wink.gifsad.gif"

Then god would have made a mistake in choosing the mother of his child. I thought god does not make mistakes?

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Well, the death penalty side of this has died off(to many people agreed on killing them) so lets move on to abortion. I think we have to open a new dimesion. Abortion is a last resort. Why do these women need abortions? Rape? Poor contreception? Stupidity acounts for alot.I think the real message is, dont get into a situation were you have to have an abortion. I suppose rape is diffrent, but then thats kinda up to the state. The Law is really lax on rapists over here in NZ and Aus. 4, maybe 6 years handed out. i wish we could tweak the human phyche to be a bit like animals, only mating for breeding purposes. Even then, I think couples should know exactly what they are going into before deciding to have a child. Many parents are not prepared.

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I think there is plenty of discussion still to be had on the death penalty. It seems that too many people on this forum at least are saying things like "Yeah the death penalty is too lenient, these guys should have their balls cut off and then skinned alive, sent to a firing squad etc etc" and frankly its rather worrying. Because when you start thinking about treating any human being like that, whether hes a Rapist or Murderer or whatever, you become worse than him/her. You become like the people a couple of hundred years ago that would go and watch the hangings/beheadings/torture for a good evening of entertainment.

This post isnt so much about the death penalty as it is about adressing the mentality of all of you "kill, burn dieee!" people.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 26 2002,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 26 2002,08:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being.  I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter.  At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile.  I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot.  You can count the tiny toes in the picture.  The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks.  All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy.  The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain).  They have fingerprints.  Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints.

Do you know what abortions do?  I mean physically.  Do you know how abortions work?  There are two primary methods for aborting babies.  One is the saline method.  They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive.  Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours.  Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand?  Or hot oil?  It's the same thing.  And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it.  The other common method is the suction method.  They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out.  Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done.  <span id='postcolor'>

You're simply wrong. And it's easy to explain why:

First of all, abortions are only done during the first trimester of pregnancy, that is, the first three months. Also, abortions are PREFERABLY done as early as possible, meaning that if you intentionally wait two and a half months before going for it, they might not do an abortion even if it is still legal. So we will limit our discussion to first three months.

Like you said a fetus has a fully functioning body at 11 weeks. Actually it has a fully functioning body from 0 weeks on, because a non-functioning body will die. All the organs and nerves are there at 11 weeks. But the size is that of a mere fingernail. That's the problem.

You claimed that the nervous system of the baby is complete at 11 weeks. This is totally not so. It's a question of size. The nervous system of a 11 weeks old is like that of an ant. The reason for this is that you cannot fit a more complex nervous system to a being the size of a fingernail, because all eukaryotic cells (the cells of multi-celled organisms) are about the same size. That means that the cells of an ant are the same size as the cells of a human. Thus, the nervous system of a 11 weeks fetus has about the same number of cells as that of an ant, because you cannot FIT more into it (ever wondered why humans are the size they are? This is the answer.) During the further development of the fetus, the cells divide (as do the cells of the heart and so on) and eventually produce a nervous system of humane complexity. This happens way after the first trimester. The fetus can feel pain if an ant can, which I doubt.

The saline method of abortion does not "burn" the fetus alive. Saline is a term for 0.9% solution of NaCl. And dude, our body is made mostly of saline, just like the fetus is. Our cellular fluid is saline based. Our blood is saline based. The amniotic fluid that the fetus swims in is saline based. The saline method just flushes the fetus out.

What comes to the suction method, well, you just suck out an ant.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank you Oligo for that interesting information. I think it illustrates how interest groups bend the truth to fit their purpouses and when you look at it closer you see that the story they are telling couldn't actually be further from the truth.<span id='postcolor'>

So what is this? You think I represent some special interest group? Screw that, dude. I have 2 children. I've watched their development from the start.

It wasn't a special interest group that told me that a baby in the womb has a complete nervous system at 11 weeks. I learned that in my Health class in school and from my wife's doctor.

Oligo, I'd be happy to see your medical credentials or whatever authority you have to sound like such a well-learned scientist. I also think it's funny that you seem to think that abortions are "only done during the first trimester of pregnancy." Now there's some back-and-forth on the partial birth abortions, but you can get an abortion up until you actually give birth. It's just that many doctors won't them that late into the pregnancy.

The fetus (Latin for "little one," for those who don't know) is functioning from conception, but it is not fully functioning. Fully fuctioning would mean that the baby has arms, legs, fully developed organs, etc, which it does not at 0 weeks.

And as far as the suction method, have you ever seen what the baby looks like after that?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 26 2002,18:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wow.gif9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 26 2002,04wow.gif9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ July 26 2002,08:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,17:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being.  I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter.  At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile.  I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot.  You can count the tiny toes in the picture.  The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks.  All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy.  The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain).  They have fingerprints.  Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints.

Do you know what abortions do?  I mean physically.  Do you know how abortions work?  There are two primary methods for aborting babies.  One is the saline method.  They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive.  Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours.  Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand?  Or hot oil?  It's the same thing.  And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it.  The other common method is the suction method.  They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out.  Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done.  <span id='postcolor'>

You're simply wrong. And it's easy to explain why:

First of all, abortions are only done during the first trimester of pregnancy, that is, the first three months. Also, abortions are PREFERABLY done as early as possible, meaning that if you intentionally wait two and a half months before going for it, they might not do an abortion even if it is still legal. So we will limit our discussion to first three months.

Like you said a fetus has a fully functioning body at 11 weeks. Actually it has a fully functioning body from 0 weeks on, because a non-functioning body will die. All the organs and nerves are there at 11 weeks. But the size is that of a mere fingernail. That's the problem.

You claimed that the nervous system of the baby is complete at 11 weeks. This is totally not so. It's a question of size. The nervous system of a 11 weeks old is like that of an ant. The reason for this is that you cannot fit a more complex nervous system to a being the size of a fingernail, because all eukaryotic cells (the cells of multi-celled organisms) are about the same size. That means that the cells of an ant are the same size as the cells of a human. Thus, the nervous system of a 11 weeks fetus has about the same number of cells as that of an ant, because you cannot FIT more into it (ever wondered why humans are the size they are? This is the answer.) During the further development of the fetus, the cells divide (as do the cells of the heart and so on) and eventually produce a nervous system of humane complexity. This happens way after the first trimester. The fetus can feel pain if an ant can, which I doubt.

The saline method of abortion does not "burn" the fetus alive. Saline is a term for 0.9% solution of NaCl. And dude, our body is made mostly of saline, just like the fetus is. Our cellular fluid is saline based. Our blood is saline based. The amniotic fluid that the fetus swims in is saline based. The saline method just flushes the fetus out.

What comes to the suction method, well, you just suck out an ant.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank you Oligo for that interesting information. I think it illustrates how interest groups bend the truth to fit their purpouses and when you look at it closer you see that the story they are telling couldn't actually be further from the truth.<span id='postcolor'>

So what is this?  You think I represent some special interest group?  Screw that, dude.  I have 2 children.  I've watched their development from the start.

It wasn't a special interest group that told me that a baby in the womb has a complete nervous system at 11 weeks.  I learned that in my Health class in school and from my wife's doctor.

Oligo, I'd be happy to see your medical credentials or whatever authority you have to sound like such a well-learned scientist.  I also think it's funny that you seem to think that abortions are "only done during the first trimester of pregnancy."  Now there's some back-and-forth on the partial birth abortions, but you can get an abortion up until you actually give birth.  It's just that many doctors won't them that late into the pregnancy.

The fetus (Latin for "little one," for those who don't know) is functioning from conception, but it is not fully functioning.  Fully fuctioning would mean that the baby has arms, legs, fully developed organs, etc, which it does not at 0 weeks.

And as far as the suction method, have you ever seen what the baby looks like after that?<span id='postcolor'>

It may be alive in the way a bee is alive, but one can't murder a bee can one?

It is not a fully fledged human life.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 26 2002,18:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what is this?  You think I represent some special interest group?  Screw that, dude.  I have 2 children.  I've watched their development from the start.<span id='postcolor'>

Not neccessarily, but I can bet that you got your information from a pro-life source.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oligo, I'd be happy to see your medical credentials or whatever authority you have to sound like such a well-learned scientist. <span id='postcolor'>

Oligo is a molecular biologist so I think we can trust his knowledge on the subject smile.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I also think it's funny that you seem to think that abortions are "only done during the first trimester of pregnancy." Now there's some back-and-forth on the partial birth abortions, but you can get an abortion up until you actually give birth. It's just that many doctors won't them that late into the pregnancy.

<span id='postcolor'>

Now, I don't know about the laws in the US, but in the EU you can only do an abortion during the first trimester unless the mothers life is in danger. That's the law.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The fetus (Latin for "little one," for those who don't know) is functioning from conception, but it is not fully functioning. Fully fuctioning would mean that the baby has arms, legs, fully developed organs, etc, which it does not at 0 weeks.

<span id='postcolor'>

Fully functioning as what? As an organic entity it sure is. A single cell is als fully functioning. If you are talking about a fully functioning human being, then we are talking about 7-8 months.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And as far as the suction method, have you ever seen what the baby looks like after that?<span id='postcolor'>

It's not a baby it's a fetus. The size of a fingernail as you said yourself.

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